This just tells me how much you know about top-class sports. Its an bizarre statement and blatantly clueless.
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This just tells me how much you know about top-class sports. Its an bizarre statement and blatantly clueless.
Agreed - complacency has crept into his game and he hasn't really developed any in-game intelligence. If anything it seems worse - doesn't help his optics that he's almost always chewing gum, which incidentally can give the impression that he doesn't care too much about what's going on around him.
I always thought we had a general complacency issue anyway in the previous regime, this is why I felt we started games poorly and only really went at teams when we were behind. The team also tended to start the next game very poorly after a good result, strolling about as though we were prime Barca.
Such an environment is potentially fatal for careers of impressionable young players and just from an eye test it appears everyone of our promising young players has dropped in workrate.
I thought the same at the time, Donny is expecting him to be alive, instead he is on his heels. Like he was all game.
There was a point in the game where he was not at RB in possession so Donny went there and AWB was just looking around, lost, confused, no idea what to do.
In possession, I think he is one of the worst players on the pitch. I'm sorry but he is not good enough for Manutd.
I see we have a new scapegoat. I don't think he was great yesterday, but ultimately we should support our players, not trash them
I think labelling a criticised player as a scapegoat is a cop out, personally. It's almost like you're attempting to absolve someone of blame when you label them as a scapegoat. Someone like Pogba, who was putting in more good performances than bad, yet still being blamed for everything is what I'd deem as an actual scapegoat. Wan-Bissaka has not been putting in great performances and it's apparent the club hierarchy share those sentiments as we were after Trippier in the summer. He's just not kicked on.
I think his price is a cross for him to bear as what we bought shouldn't really have cost more than £20m, but I also feel AWB - like McTominay and a number of others in that age bracket that are here - has been let down on the nurture side during the most crucial formative development years for a young professional. There's so much they haven't been taught or forced to work on that you can point the finger away from these players to an extent, because even if you're name's Messi, Ronaldo or Neymar, you still need coaching, honing and rounding out.
The technical issues may or may not be fixable, but the crux here is that it hasn't been worked on and ironed out. I don't know what our coaching staff have been doing, but comparing and contrasting players at other top clubs, you see a development arc and upward trajectory or the player either plays fleetingly or is shipped out. My personal take is that we've been enamoured with his defensive work and haven't laid down the gauntlet of improvement like you see where other clubs extract every sinew out of their players. AWB isn't unique: Rashford, McTominay, Martial all also come to mind when thinking whether anything about their game has improved in the last few years - the period after they were touted and made their breakthroughs, and I think the answer is a firm no for all of them - positioning; understanding; reading of play; any technical aspect, all of them have either stagnated or regressed.
re. the bolded. I say more with hope than certainty that maybe these guys can be hands on with him and turn the frog into a prince, or get him so way to becoming a duke at least. It does depend on how capable and receptive he is, however, although I refuse to believe he's stuck with league 1 level technical acumen.
If we're saying he's simply not good enough, no matter what, then I think there will be a point where everyone is in agreement with that, but my take is that this is the first time in his professional career that AWB will be getting the level of coaching that should see him round out to a considerably better player, not just in terms of technique, but also understanding of the game as well as his reading of play.
To your question, I'm not sure, as we usually see the whole improve rather than specific aspects, and you're probably right that it's in the understanding of play over the technical.
He'll get hands on training and instruction and be shown videos of his errors; hopefully he also gets an individual package with the things he needs to work on, and I do refuse to believe that with drilling and repetition, he can't be quite a bit better than he is even if we've missed out on crucial portions of his formative development.
@Andrew7582 wrote the above, and it's true to an extent, but what happens often in professional sports, particularly solo ones is the athlete will change gyms and coaches, un-learn the bad and re-route to new methods and technical execution. You have boxers who have been taught one way to throw punches, incorrectly, for even more years of muscle memory drilling than footballers have under their belt, who get those bad habits and executions corrected or completely re-built, so I don't believe a footballer's bed is made and they're tightly tucked in for a career, if the right coach comes along and they have the desire and aptitude to reroute themselves and their failings.
In comparative terms, if someone is taken to a boxing or martial arts class, even as an adult, they will start on the bottom rung, but with concerted effort, drilling and training, they will rise up the grades and be considerably better than from where they began - it doesn't mean they become world class or anything, but certainly a better version of themselves than when they started - I'll throw that out to any discipline, really.
AWB's story is quite unique and he is a fledgling in some ways who is starting behind the line , but I do not believe it has to be set in stone that what he is right now is what he will remain for the rest of his career, what is against him, however, is time, both in terms of his own age and the fact we're smack bang in the middle of a season where we're playing catchup and have a hectic schedule that won't lend itself to the strides players can take over the off-season. That's where I think AWB is really in trouble because Dalot's way ahead of him technically and it's his spot to lose - injury and rotation probably the former's inlets.
I'd also throw in the caveat of the winter window, which might make this discussion a redundancy if Rangnick buys a RB then, which shuts the door on AWB as he'd then be 3rd in the pecking order.
Stretford Paddock have better wingers than him.
I think you're mistaken. No one has ever scapegoated AWB, when was the last time he had a good game and got blamed?
I feel you are using the term scapegoat when its not even a valid point here.
Sometimes you have to call out players when they are not good enough.
Saying he's to blame for our problems would be making him a scapegoat.
Saying he's bad at football isn't. And that's what most are doing.
He's not "bad at football" is he? Agree he's low on confidence at the moment and doesn't look fit, but he needs time and proper coaching
unfortunately this happens sometimes around here. However, an opinion on his performance doesn’t hurt. He was below par yesterday. The problem is that I didn’t feel urgency in him. His body language has started to be more like Martial which is worrying for me. Here he is, with Dalot challenging for his position in the team, but yet a weak performance. He should step up
Terribly limited footballer overall. 15-20 years ago he would have been ace, but a modern fullback he is not.
I just don't see any real examples of players suddenly developing a completely new technical skill mid-career and even those that can be used as an example (Rooney's heading, Ronaldo's goalscoring) are literally the best of the best, varying from the best of their generation to the best of all-time.
If we're talking about negating his flaws, like lack of spatial awareness or severe lack of intensity, yeah, he can improve in those aspects (if he's willing to work his ass off in training though). If we're talking about him developing an whole new attacking skillset that he simply doesn't have at the moment... I think it's not something that we can count on.
The argument usually goes like this — he just needs to keep his head up and start crossing accurately & with intent... like he does everything right at this point and just needs to learn to look around before he makes a cross. Not like passing, crossing & learning when and how to make the most dangerous pass is a skill and one of the toughest one to acquire.
So yeah, I'm pretty pessimistic about his prospects with us under any proactive manager — which Rangnick is and, hopefully, his successor will continue developing us in the same direction. Out of the modern managers I'd say that Wan-Bissaka's best bet would be someone like Mourinho but in reality he's simply born in the wrong era. Put him in the 70s or 80s in the eras of flat back fours and traditional wingers and he'd be brilliant — he'll still need to work on his positioning and stuff, but that I believe he could improve under the right management. In proactive systems where positioning & reading of the game take precedence over one-on-one skills, all of his weaknesses are highlighted while his undeniable strengths are not used to their full potential. And I'm not even talking about offensive contribution that modern fullback is expected to provide — even an average one, no one is expecting him to suddenly become Alves/Marcelo/Trent. The fact that Dalot, let's be honest, a pretty average fullback, at least at the moment, makes such a difference to our play is a pretty damning evidence against Wan-Bissaka.
Let's talk about crossing: if his current routine is, say, 100 crosses a session, do you think he'd see improvement with 200, 300, 400 etc. per day over a period of say, a month? Don't we hear all the time how specialists in football take extra time after generic training to hone their craft? Penalty takers, free kick takers, shooting, crossing, I'll hazard a guess it happens with passing too, but we don't really hear about that on the grapevine like the aforementioned.
Offensive positioning isn't so much the problem for AWB, imo - he's where he's supposed to be a lot of the time, it's just that he'll be fundamentally useless from the position and waste it. He is often in place to hit a cross, indeed, we remonstrate often enough with what he puts in, even; he's frequently in the correct place to be part of a constructive chain, but his instinct, and probably more importantly, his confidence, has him play the most basic of short pass to the nearest man who doesn't even want the ball at that moment in time.
I have a feeling that AWB is aware of his own limitations and they have him turn in on himself and do the most basic of things more often than not; why can Rangnick, not teach him how to give, go and re-position himself in the optimum position to progress the play, even if not with a sprawling pass or cross, then with another, short, inclusive pass that enables someone else to try and capitalise?
When I speak about Bissaka, I'm not expecting the guy to turn into a Hakimi or be some tremendous force down the right, rather, I'm of the belief he can be considerably more productive with both his crossing and his interplay and not be set goals far beyond his technical remit - he's not going to turn into a silky footballer, but surely he can do the bare minimum to be a competent enough attacking one? Concentration, repetition, doggedness in working on his game should produce something better than he currently is, but as I said before, his actual aptitude and ability to take on the training and instruction he'll be getting, will determine how far he can take his game.
Ultimately, it's probably a given he'll be phased out because he'll never have the technical acumen of someone like even Laird (let alone the players you mentioned) and is primed to be usurped/sold over persevered with in the long-term, but I just don't buy the notion he's an utter, hapless write-off who has no chance of staking a claim for a role under Rangnick that isn't just a body used for cover. It'll be moot as a point if Rangnick immediately buys a RB (or even recalls Laird) this winter window, but if he doesn't and Wan Bissaka does put in the pre-requisite work, I expect him to become a better offensive player by the end of this season.
That is spot on. That is exactly what has to be done to him. Practice, practice and more practice. Then on his movements on and off the ball. He is not a bad player. He is quick when he wants to be but he needs to know when to sprint and the direction to sprint and basically how to play good football. Maybe RR is the man to do it?
I love how plenty of fans turn on our players when they hit a patch off bad form. Suddenly everyone "always knew they were a liability"....
Any word on his injury yet?
Yh the initial header is something you see in kids football, it’s such a simple mistake.
I don’t really blame Matic or VdB - both could have done better but once the pass was made to VdB there’s not a whole lot he can do. AWB created the opportunity for them by simply not heading the ball out.
Yeah, no one is expecting him to become outstanding, but can you think of an example of a player drastically improving his technical skill in mid 20's? Especially something like passing. I genuinely can not. There are a few outliers that can kinda qualify — like Messi's free kicks and long-distance shots... but then again, he obviously had the technique, he just needed to train on a slightly different usage of it. And it's Messi. The likes of Beckham had trained free kicks & crosses for years and years since his youth days. And kept training them obsessively throughout his career to maintain that level of expertise. So no, I don't think that adding 200 crosses per day for a month would equate into a decent improvement for Wan-Bissaka for in-game situations.
Especially since with crossing and passing you can't train them in static like you can free kicks or shooting. Well, you can, but it doesn't translate well into the in-game situations when you're usually under a lot of pressing, don't have any time and have to pick out your teammate and avoid all of the opposition players — and Wan-Bissaka isn't capable of that, it's probably even a bigger problem than his pure technical ability at the moment (even though both are a huge issue). You need to constantly check your surroundings and be aware of where everyone is. Xavi told us how it's taught in La Masia where midfielders have to put their head up and look around, scanning the field, dozens of times per minute... for years and years until it becomes natural to you. Only then, with hundreds or even thousands of hours of training do you develop that ability — and it only really works with children, that's how our brains are wired.
Wan-Bissaka would have to go on a Rocky-like Eye of the Tiger training routine for years — with an individual training regime developed specifically for him to even have a chance to achieve what you're saying. In addition to his playing career and regular trainings with his teammates — you don't really get a lot of free time during the season & you have to add to that that a human body can only train for so much. Most of the times between the games footballers are resting so that their bodies don't shut down completely over the course of a season. This is why the boxer's comparison from before is a flawed one — they have what, one big fight per year? And they get to train with their individual program all of their free time. It's not a coincidence that Rooney's heading had improved over the summer — it's the only time where footballers can realistically develop a training routine for themselves and it only lasts for a few weeks.
Yup, AWB is enemy number 1 right now.
And some of the comments from posters take it way too far IMO
I feel pretty bad for him. He has had a very promising couple of seasons and really looked to have improved parts of his game.
He is having a miserable time of late and I think last night it showed not just in his performance but also his demeanor. He knows his place is under major threat now, I hope he rebounds and hopefully the new manager can improve him too
Matuidi went from having the passing abilties of a donkey to being able to play in a possession oriented midfield without being an hindrance. Ancelotti allegedly asked him to focus on it and that's what Matuidi did, now I have rarely seen a player that seems that humble and dedicated. I used to make fun of him but in hindsight it wasn't deserved.
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Hm, fair enough.
Ever heard of exaggeration bud? Was obviously not meant to be taken literally, was just driving home a point. Do you like not have any social skills? Haha what an absurd response dude. Work on your comprehension skills then we’ll talk.
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Totally agree
“He received two knocks,” explained Rangnick. “One again, unfortunately, on the wrist and one on his knee. He’s being treated in the locker room but we have to wait and see what the situation around those two knocks will be like tomorrow. I am positive he can train again on Friday and hopefully be part of the team against Norwich.”
If Rangnick sees any hope in him and doesn't intend to have him sold at the earliest opportunity, I would hope he can improve and develop him considerably from the player we currently see out there.
I simply do not believe what he is now is 'it' for his whole career if the proper effort is made to improve.
I think we have our wires crossed here because, as stated in my previous post, I see Wan Bissaka as someone who already takes up the positions he should be in, but makes an absolute hash of them, so his running and movement is not a major issue and being able to play short-passes in a decent sequence should not be also. The crossing thing, I just can't agree with - adding 200 crosses per day, for a month is 6,200 more than whatever he's currently doing. It has to drag the mean up for literally anyone, pro or not - whether an amateur at the park or Sunday football, or a top tier pro: 6,200 more repeat actions has to have an effect, otherwise we're saying there is no capacity to learn, develop or comprehend flaws in execution. We drill in all walks of improvement to get better and better at it, why would it be any different for any footballer? Granted, the level of improvement should and will vary from the prodigious types to the average Joe's of the football world, but there should always be something of benefit in the extra work.
You can train any and every cross? Static, moving, with obstacles, without, full-speed (on the sprint), half-speed (jogging, for placement), or static as long as you have the training partners, time and patience. Training for real game/world execution is the least of the worries in that regard and I'd say it's more a question of the players' dedication to do those hard yards repeatedly than it is that the effort itself is futile.
We're not talking about AWB being a central midfielder, just making better use of the opportunities he already carves out for himself - he is already set up to simply make better crosses, or actually use a give and go correctly, he just executes them poorly, so it's a half measure he has to improve (the technique) and not the whole (incorporation of movement and understanding of how to get from A to C in the first place - he already does that bit well enough). If he could actually cross a ball and pick out a man, and literally nothing else about him was changed at the moment, he'd already be far, far more effective than he currently is.
Notice I didn't mention shooting or any of that stuff for him in any of my posts, as I think the overload of information and the surplus needed to train those skills as well as hone the basics of his position is beyond him, and if we want the total modern full-back article, he can't hit all those notes at his age. I do, however, believe he can be functional and effective by developing the things I've mentioned.
I think the 1st bolded would be true if I was saying he can become the consummate modern full-back, sure, but I'm only talking about crossing and improvement of short passing in the chains full-backs high up the pitch often find themselves in and not much else. For me, it'd take a full off-season rather than years and years of graft - drilling in the way even Best did to use his left foot; it's simply not uncommon for any footballer if they want to improve badly enough, no matter what they're starting out as. You mentioned Messi and Ronaldo, I mentioned Rooney, etc. so if they can work on and improve aspects of their game, then there's no reason those lower on the rungs can't do the same... the difference between them and AWB might well be they have the dedication down pat and won't shirk the graft needed, where the interpretation we get of Wan Bissaka is he's a cruiser who might slack off over applying himself above and beyond like he needs to.
The second bolded, I think we shouldn't underplay how many hours it cumulatively becomes if Bissaka worked an extra hour or two per day over a few months. That's still a lot of hours on very specific things - enough to illicit some change, perhaps not enough, but certainly to have him improve on what he currently is.
Of course I could be wrong but the way I see it is that there’s a potentially fantastic RB in AWB. But he looks like a player whose coaches rarely ever spent time developing. He was allowed to stagnate and remain an undeveloped young talent who sits in a comfort zone but in doing so fell behind. Ultimately that’s on him, but the coaches are hugely responsible for his stagnation as well.
The sooner we molt the dead skin of Ole’s regime, the better for all of us. How many players actually improved under Ole? I can only think of one or two.
The sooner we molt the dead skin of Ole’s regime, the better for all of us. How many players actually improved under Ole? I can only think of one or two.
We'll see, I guess @Fortitude. I certainly hope that you're the one who's right here, it would be wonderful if Wan-Bissaka was to prove my pessimistic self wrong.
Alright, but when would he get that off season? And Best was training his left foot from childhood... It's more of a rhetorical question though, I think we've both made our points clear.
We looked at 800+ RB’s before settling on AWB.
https://theathletic.com/3005096/202...-manager-evening-to-forget-manchester-united/
- Dalot likely to retain his place six months after impressive perfomances tactically under Carrick and Rangnick.
- Two crosses found no teammates, zero key passes, most touches were in defensive third.
- Ole played AWB 54 times last season. May have persisted with him to save face after purchasing AWB from an analysis of 804 right-backs.
We looked at 800+ RB’s before settling on AWB.
The most concerning thing for me was that so many ordinary, average, run-of-the-mill, Redcafe contributors pointed out again and again, prior to signing him, that he was very average on the ball, especially for a team chasing top four. This was supplemented with video evidence from scores and scores of games. So my question is; how is it possible for the average Caf contributor to recognise this technical and attacking flaw, yet, our professional scouting and analytics team vetted him from nearly a thousand RB's and got it so, so wrong?
Yeah that’s a good point alright. I was mildly optimistic when AWB was signed but he did have glaring issues offensively.
I can only speculate, but I think our coaching staff probably thought that it’s something that could be worked on.
In any case, I don’t see how they came to the conclusion that he’s the one player out of 800 that topped the list. It’s a pretty bizarre number for a number of reasons.
Crossing is a skill that can be honed and mastered. Its not a talent. No one can convince me an AWB cant improve his crossing. He can already beat people for fun and get into dangerous positions when in form. He just doesn't utilize them positions when he gets into them.
Im convinced a merticulous improver of players like Rangnick is going to harness much better from him. Same as with Dalot defensively.
Im convinced a merticulous improver of players like Rangnick is going to harness much better from him. Same as with Dalot defensively.
Championship player at his best and Ralf knows it
Money.
@harms The likes of Xavi is able to have his head's up when playing because they're comfortable to control the ball. I think that's the most basic requirement for any good footballer. Controlling the ball has to be their second nature to be able to spare their attention to anything else (surrounding conditions). Otherwise, their heads would be down to just see the ball and control it, before thinking about what to do next.
As we know, that is why good footballers often seem to have deceptively more time before making any pass.
Unfortunately, controlling the ball as second nature is one of the most difficult skill to learn. I think pass certain age, the learning curve is flattening. Agreed with you that AWB is close to impossible to develop his attacking instinct already. Although maybe he still can develop into the right-back of Brown, which i think that would be a very fine RB already.
As we know, that is why good footballers often seem to have deceptively more time before making any pass.
Unfortunately, controlling the ball as second nature is one of the most difficult skill to learn. I think pass certain age, the learning curve is flattening. Agreed with you that AWB is close to impossible to develop his attacking instinct already. Although maybe he still can develop into the right-back of Brown, which i think that would be a very fine RB already.
Relatively speaking, yes he is bad at football.
Wouldn't get anywhere near starting for any top side in Europe, and wouldn't be starting for most of the next tier either. Not even in the top four choices for his position with England.
Has nothing to do with his fitness either.
Ole had his own personal scout (Simon Wells) who he trusted above all else from what I've read.
So whether the recruitment team presented 800 or 8000 reports on prospective RBs, Ole was always gonna go with the scout that reported directly to him.
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