Well, of course. It goes without saying that everybody would rather spend £7m on Hernandez than Bebe.
I don't think it's that simple!
A Tribute to Roy Hodgson - his LFC legacy in quotes
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Well, of course. It goes without saying that everybody would rather spend £7m on Hernandez than Bebe.
I don't think it's that simple!
You're right of course. But you get the general point.
A lot will depend on Comolli, I'd have imagined.
It's one area where I think, even without my biased hat on here, that Wenger is best. His signings in the 5-12m area are second to none.
It is that simple. Bebe was an amateur just 6 months ago. It will take him at the very least another 6 months to start to fulfill any potential the United scouts a saw in him. He can't be compared to signing Hernandez in any shape or form. For Hernandez honed his skills in an academy and was a pro from age 17 prior to singing for United.
Bebe was an out right wild card gamble. A Hernandez wasn't. Liverpool need to do a Wenger and make Hernandez type signings a regular occurrence.
A wild-card gamble for £7m is something that most clubs cannot do. The chances of Bebe coming off started out at about 20%, and it's lowering by the day.
Absolutely. He's brilliant in that area.
Exactly. That is why no one in here has recommended that.
Yes he can. This is exactly what we are talking about.
The players cost more or less the same and this has morphed to a discussion about signing (relatively) cheap players. One is an bona-fide hit at the moment while the other shows the pitfalls of what £7m can potentially get you.
So your recommendation is to buy players who will be great for relatively small amounts?
Revolutionary!
No. You are comparing a wild card gamble to a shrewd buy. It's not remotely a sensible comparison.
A shrewd buy is a player who can do wonders for you in the now, and the long term but comes cheaply.
A great example are our very cheap signings of Evra and Vidic.
To the folks who have been signing players for your team since about 1990. Certainly.
Signings are only shrewd retrospectively though, Chief. There are no guarantees at any price and even less when spending £7m or so. For every Evra there's a Kleberson, a Djemba-Djemba or a Massimo Taibi. For every Vidic, there's a Bebe or a Tosic.
Otherwise why would anyone bother spending £20m when there are a plethora of great players out there for £7m? The simple answer is that there isn't.
Bullshit. A shrewd buy is a shrewd buy.
I don't get your obsession with guarantees. You don't need guarantees to continually make good signings cheaply. Wenger has proven this. What you need is an eye for talent.
Tell that to Wenger who keeps signing top players cheaply. To get to the top you don't always have to sign 20m plus players. Look what Mourinho did at Porto for example.
Of course it is. But retrospectively! There is no way of knowing beforehand if a player is going to be successful or not! If Bebe had been good thus far you would be saying he's a shrewd buy. But he's a bit of a turkey at the moment.
He's the best in the business and the exception insofar as he seems to have more hits the misses in that price bracket. Everyone else is the opposite.
I hesitate to bring up Munich in these discussions but I think it is valid to say that the obvious decimation of a team with an average age of 23/24 not only prevented further short term success but hindered the development of some very good youth players who had to assume too much responsibility too quickly.
Remember that Duncan Edwards etc would only have been 31 in 1968 and young players like Best, Kidd, Aston,& Sadler would have developed under the example and tutelage of some amazing players.
Hypothetical I know but, in my opinion, Munich interrupted a planned, gradual process and created a generation gap which was not bridged until the Ferguson era.
Fergie's very good in that price range too.
Look at the likes of Evra, Vidic, Park, Hernandez, VDS, Rafael and Fabio, just in the current squad.
That you have to go back 7/8 years to the likes of Kleberson and Djemba-Djemba for examples of duds proves how few he gets wrong. Probably signs about as many misses as Wenger.
Fair enough. Though I probably wouldn't agree with your last statement (nothing scientific - more of a hunch), it is safe to say both managers are generally pretty bloody good in the transfer market.
The dick measuring analogy is all that it is. "We've had more homegrown players in our European Cup winning sides than you - Nah, nah".
But I think even you'd agree, that a lot of that is down to good fortune, just as much as good planning. Because if your youth system was the dogs bollocks, then you wouldn't be approaching the 20th anniversary of the 'class of 92' wondering where the next batch of European all-stars are coming from.
3 players that come through your youth ranks & have a European winners medal are: Phil Neville. Nicky Butt. & Wes Brown. Whilst 3 players that come through our youth system, & don't have a winners medal (with Liverpool) are: Robbie Fowler. Steve McManaman. & Michael Owen. So, other than the fact that your lads were lucky enough to come through at a club that was about to embark on a long period of domination. Perhaps you'd to like to tell us how these guys were more deserving of their medals than the 3 Liverpool boys I've mentioned above - You do that, & I'll tell you why Djimi Traore was a much better player than Paul McGrath. His European Cup winners medal confirms this to be true.
You didn't read the article on youth development and why it's almost impossible to repeat the feat of 1992, did you? I linked to it a few posts up. Educate yourself. Saying that, we've got some excellent players who can make it here, the path just isn't as easy for them now.
As for homegrown European Cup winners. It was an interesting observation that's all, especially as Liverpool fans have always been very quick to tell us our success was bought, as if you did things differently in the 70's and 80's. Turns out, our success has been alot more organic. Makes me proud redman, very proud.
Oh, and bona-fide pros like Neville and Butt are much more deserving of winners medals than big time charlies like Fowler. McManaman got his medal in the end. Owen's is hopefully coming.
As for homegrown European Cup winners. It was an interesting observation that's all, especially as Liverpool fans have always been very quick to tell us our success was bought, as if you did things differently in the 70's and 80's. Turns out, our success has been alot more organic. Makes me proud redman, very proud.
Oh, and bona-fide pros like Neville and Butt are much more deserving of winners medals than big time charlies like Fowler. McManaman got his medal in the end. Owen's is hopefully coming.
No I was referring to Smalling who, unless I am mistaken, cost you £10m. I can't argue that Hernandez has been a great signing but to say that a £10m buy is a "shrewd" buy is wrong IMO. A good buy perhaps but shrewd? it wouldn't be my choice of word.
Unfortuantely these are the types of signings we have been trying to buy for years and got it badly wrong on too many an occasion. Then get mocked for buying too much quantity and not enough quality. You're are right though, Comolli has to hit the ground running with this one. A very important summer ahead.
Wenger only seems to be able to do it with midfielders and to a lesser extent forwards, as his record with defenders and goalkeepers is shocking. NGog could turn out to be a very "shrewd" signing. He cost £1.5m and has impreved every year and he's still only 21 I think. Whether or not he makes it at LFC remains to be seen but he certainly has potential and a good attitude.
Exactly, you may be minted but £10m is far from cheap. Can we call Alonso a shrewd buy?
Where's the cut off point for a shrewd buy? 6.7m?
There's no reason a 10m can't be a shrewd buy any less than any other amount. Smalling for 10m is beginning to look very shrewd indeed.
Fair enough. Not really a discussion to be had when we're just disagreeing on the definition of a word and when you're wrong, and I'm right.
Kind of the point.
Torres could have been considered a shrewd buy at £22m given his conversion rate and the fact he was sold for £50m.
It's far too subjective a term. Similar to 'world class'.
Saying that, whatever the cost, Liverpool can't afford too many failures in the transfer market this summer.
'Shrewd' doesn't really have anything to do with amounts of money for me. To me, it simply implies cleverness on the manager's part - seeing something in a player that others missed. That might mean that the player ends up looking good value in the end but the shrewdness is simply being clever enough to see it in the first place.
To that end, I wouldn't say Torres was a shrewd buy - everyone knew his quality. Hernandez was, so was Smalling, and I'd say someone like VDS was too - not many would have thought he had 5 years at the top level left in him after Fulham. Very shrewd of Fergie.
To that end, I wouldn't say Torres was a shrewd buy - everyone knew his quality. Hernandez was, so was Smalling, and I'd say someone like VDS was too - not many would have thought he had 5 years at the top level left in him after Fulham. Very shrewd of Fergie.
Fair enough, BL. It's all about opinions.
Alonso was shrewd, no doubt.
Fair enough.
Exactly. It's all about judgement.
True.
Hands down in my mind.
Spot on.
Well at least we share some common ground in feeling great pride for our respective clubs.
I'm proud of the fact that for nearly 50 years, my club has not finished lower than 8th place in the top flight. Quite an achievement, don't you agree ?
We've consistently brought through local lads such as: Ronnie Moran. Gerry Byrne. Chris Lawler. Tommy Smith. Ian Callaghan. David Fairclough. Phil Thompson. Sammy Lee. Gary Ablett. Steve McManaman. Robbie Fowler. Michael Owen. Jamie Carragher. Steven Gerrard - All have played a major part in that success story. & all have medals to prove it.
I'm also proud of the fact that when we bought players during our dominant period of the 70's & 80's. We brought in more local lads in the shape of Terry McDermott, David Johnson, Steve McMahon, & John Aldridge. & I think you'll struggle to find any posts of mine stating that United have 'bought' their success. I have posted as to how you were fortunate that the class of 92, & your dominance, came about at the same time as the big money started to get it's grips into the game (Sky, CL). Consequently giving you a major financial advantage over everyone else. But I'm told that you've earned the right to spend your money because of the success out there on the pitch. Which is kind of funny really. Because that's pretty much what we did during the 70's & 80's. Only difference being of course. Is that money was nowhere near the influence it is in today's game. Manchester United had just as much financial power as Liverpool during the aforementioned period. & your club were never shy in getting the chequebook out. So in a few years time, if United have won 6 European Cups to our 5. I seriously doubt whether you, or anyone else concerned with Manchester United, will give a flying feck if your side has 11 local lads from Salford. Or 11 expensive signings from all corners of the globe. You'll simply be happy with the fact that for the first time in your history, you'll be able to say you've got 'the biggest dick'
I always thought Ferguson was trying to imitate Wenger with that and when he realised it wasn't working just thought 'feck it, I am just getting the players I want' and stopped having qualms paying 17m for the likes of Carrick and Hargreaves.
Not really. We tried to buy Ronaldinhio for big money that summer, Kenyon fecked it up.
Summer before that got Rio for 29m and a year after that Rooney for mega bucks as well.
Well at least we share some common ground in feeling great pride for our respective clubs.
I'm proud of the fact that for nearly 50 years, my club has not finished lower than 8th place in the top flight. Quite an achievement, don't you agree ?
We've consistently brought through local lads such as: Ronnie Moran. Gerry Byrne. Chris Lawler. Tommy Smith. Ian Callaghan. David Fairclough. Phil Thompson. Sammy Lee. Gary Ablett. Steve McManaman. Robbie Fowler. Michael Owen. Jamie Carragher. Steven Gerrard - All have played a major part in that success story. & all have medals to prove it.
I'm also proud of the fact that when we bought players during our dominant period of the 70's & 80's. We brought in more local lads in the shape of Terry McDermott, David Johnson, Steve McMahon, & John Aldridge. & I think you'll struggle to find any posts of mine stating that United have 'bought' their success. I have posted as to how you were fortunate that the class of 92, & your dominance, came about at the same time as the big money started to get it's grips into the game (Sky, CL). Consequently giving you a major financial advantage over everyone else. But I'm told that you've earned the right to spend your money because of the success out there on the pitch. Which is kind of funny really. Because that's pretty much what we did during the 70's & 80's. Only difference being of course. Is that money was nowhere near the influence it is in today's game. Manchester United had just as much financial power as Liverpool during the aforementioned period. & your club were never shy in getting the chequebook out. So in a few years time, if United have won 6 European Cups to our 5. I seriously doubt whether you, or anyone else concerned with Manchester United, will give a flying feck if your side has 11 local lads from Salford. Or 11 expensive signings from all corners of the globe. You'll simply be happy with the fact that for the first time in your history, you'll be able to say you've got 'the biggest dick'
Well, we've already got the biggest dick in the number's game, but I think people still do give a feck about homegrown players in the squad. Many United fans don't care, but there's a significant number who take great pride in having a homegrown element to the squad. That all our greatest teams have contained a significant homegrown element is all the better. It makes it a bit more special. I hope it continues. All we can do though is give them a chance and see.
It's hardly imitating Wenger when Fergie had been finding world class bargains for years previously (e.g. Schmeichel, Solskjaer). Dont think he's ever stopped looking for bargains. He continued the trend signing the likes of Evra and Vidic on the cheap, and turning them into the best players in their position in world football. And he continues to try to emulate that with highly promising signings like Hernandez and the twins. I'm sure there's more to come.
More ''shit football'' from Roy produces 3-1 away win.
That must be one of the few away wins he has managed over the past two years? Well played the Baggies.
yup he's found his level chief.
Nah. Liverpool are just shit. Even Dalglish's' genius has failed to hide it.
I am genuinely stunned. Well done to roy. with two away wins this season, he just doubled his record from last year.
Could his 36th year be the magic year he finds the key to away games?
Sometimes a club just isn't right for you. Did a poor job at Liverpool but it happens.
Presumably you think he was given a fair chance to do a good job at Liverpool?
Do you generally have this much trouble 'moving on' in life? Will your Hodgson-hate hard-on ever wear off?