Is this the new narrative now? That Maguire and Awb weren't picked by Ole...Jesus.
A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino
- Thread starter NotBrendanRodgers honest
- Start date
No that it was picked by Ole just as it was picked by the rest of the higher level up people. The same way Shaw and Herrera was picked by LVG and the board above him.
If Wan Bissaka or Maguire wasnt good enough then it's the DOF's need to show it out.
The same shit happened with Lukaku. A clear Mourinho type striker but it was agreed all across the board when it shouldn't have gone through because Lukaku doesnt fit with Rashford and Martial etc.
The manager shouldnt just have a free role at players like its bloody its football manager. If they do then they shouldn't have.
I just blame a lack of Dof over Ole, over LVG or over Mourinho. Theres a severe lack of flow going from one manager to another, and when it does it's usually a bad or questionable move.
Very true. A DOF should keep both Woodward and the manager in chess with data/info/decisions.
If you‘re happy changing managers every few years, then you must have absolutely loved the last 7 years.
Each to their own I guess, it’s just not the way I’d operate.
He must be a Watford fan in disguiseIf you‘re happy changing managers every few years, then you must have absolutely loved the last 7 years.
Each to their own I guess, it’s just not the way I’d operate.
In most clubs across the world no such veto exists. The director of football or the executives pick the signings and the coach is expected to make it work.
At Man Utd the manager does exert influence and he can say 'I don't want this player.' However, that does not imply the level of control you might think. For example, Mourinho okayed the Fred signing. However, its been repeatedly reported by sources close to Mourinho that he only okayed the deal because he was told it was Fred or nobody.
I have no doubt that Ole has given every player that has come into Man Utd his okay. Its not clear to me what circumstances this way done under though. Say, for example, Ole was told on the weekend before deadline day that he had a choice: Cavani or no senior attacking player, how much of a choice is that? He can say no but then he's choosing not to bring in a first team attacking player. I have high hopes for Pellistri and Diallo but it would be more of a surprise if they were ready for Premier League action than not. In those circumstances you're not going to say no.
None of us, myself included, knows what goes on inside Man Utd. However, there is enough to suggest its not as straightforward as manager A says I want X player and it happens.
It will not be any different for any other manager, including Pochettino. Whether its Ole or someone else they will be expected to take the squad that's been put together and make something of it. It doesn't matter how strong a vision of football you have.
That’s fine but someone is making these choices right? I mean you can’t honestly believe Ed Woodward and Matt Judge are picking Fred and Cavani? It does not make sense.
No one knows but I’m sure it’s a lot more of a list of targets for said position and what we get depends on who the manager wants from that list.
You mentioned Fred and a better example would be out of 5 CM’s we couldn’t get 4 but could get Fred. So yes it was Fred or nobody. Not hey Jose we have this CM here but don’t bother giving us a list of other CM’s it’s him or your not getting one. It’s a stupid conclusion.
Completely agree with this
While I’ve always been a big fan of Poch, and think he has a few characteristic that would make him a good fit for the club, there is also a few huge question marks with him. Regardless, he would be an instant upgrade for us.
I still do think that quite a few is way too quick to conclude that we should go for him. There is a few more exciting options available. And there is also a few less exciting options to be considered.
I know quite a few think his football is dire, but Allegri’s record is very special. Not only winning every single year in Italy with Juve, but he also won with Milan. Furthermore, I think reaching to finals in CL at the time is underrated. Serie A was poor at the time and it is difficult to succeed in CL when the national league is poor (ask Ferguson). He also did a great job with Pogba.
If we did hire Pochettino over Allegri it would be a decision based on heart, not brain, in my opinion.
I still do think that quite a few is way too quick to conclude that we should go for him. There is a few more exciting options available. And there is also a few less exciting options to be considered.
I know quite a few think his football is dire, but Allegri’s record is very special. Not only winning every single year in Italy with Juve, but he also won with Milan. Furthermore, I think reaching to finals in CL at the time is underrated. Serie A was poor at the time and it is difficult to succeed in CL when the national league is poor (ask Ferguson). He also did a great job with Pogba.
If we did hire Pochettino over Allegri it would be a decision based on heart, not brain, in my opinion.
A DOF working under Woodward is pointless. If he's going to completely ignore Mourinho after he finishes 2nd then who the feck is he going to listen to?
Saying he finished second is a very simplistic fact and ignores a huge amount of context.
I personally think the team we have right now is pretty great. We just dont have a manager.
Telles I think is a hue upgrade over Shaw at LB and Shaw is a good backup. Alternatively you can also play Shaw at LCB. Also moving Brandon Williams to the right adds us good depth at that position too.
I think if we play Fred DVB and Bruno our midfield is also quite good.
And as for our attack, I am a big fan of Cavani and with Mason, Martial and Rashford, again I think thats pretty good. We are also getting Dialo January 1st and the board believes he can play and contribute from day 1.
All in all I do think we have a good team now, some pretty awesome individuals. We are not coached at all though.
Telles I think is a hue upgrade over Shaw at LB and Shaw is a good backup. Alternatively you can also play Shaw at LCB. Also moving Brandon Williams to the right adds us good depth at that position too.
I think if we play Fred DVB and Bruno our midfield is also quite good.
And as for our attack, I am a big fan of Cavani and with Mason, Martial and Rashford, again I think thats pretty good. We are also getting Dialo January 1st and the board believes he can play and contribute from day 1.
All in all I do think we have a good team now, some pretty awesome individuals. We are not coached at all though.
Top managers in today's game shouldn't even need to be too involved in the management of the club, they should be head coaches. That is only an expectation with us because this club still operates like it's in the stone ages. Ideally, a DOF should be building a squad and hiring a coach who can get the most out of that squad/work with those players
There are many counter-arguments, including:
- Having a DoF choosing which players to buy and sell is disempowering to the coach - who risks being fired based on potential bad choices by the DoF, choices over which they have no power;
- It creates disconnect between incoming new players and the coach, because these players don't know if the coach really wanted them (and also they may disrespect the coach more, because they know that the coach is subordinate to the DoF);
- It is no more likely that the right DoF will be found than it is that the right coach/manager will be found ... but the damage caused by having a bad DoF is potentially huge
- It creates the potential for conflict between the DoF and the coach over players signed.
- It adds another later of bureaucracy, increasing the club's total wage bill in the process)
Good point. LVG was probably the nearest we have had to that but he was arguably passed his best. Perhaps the secret is to appoint a manager like Poch with a clear playing style and system and the trophy part will follow. Can’t be any worse than the last 7 years efforts anyway!
There's just as much possibility, if not more, of a coach being fired because he joins a team with players who don't suit his vision. I don't agree with the disconnect between players argument, as if players gave a shit about that, they'd feel just as disillusioned when a manager joins who has no intention of playing them, especially as you could argue that that manager didn't 'want' them neither. Not to add, the DOF specifically will be signing players with the club's vision moving forward, which will determine the style of manager hired too, so players wouldn't be under the impression they 're joining a manager who would have no interest in utilizing them.
The wages issue isn't a factor for this club. They are spending half a million pounds a week on two goalkeepers, I'm sure shelling out some cash for a DOF, who will inevitably save us money in the long run due to introducing a far more structured and calculated approach to recruitment and playstyle won't be the end of the world.
I have to vehemently disagree.
Allegri won a league title with Milan with probably the most expensively assembled team in Serie A at the time when the league was very weak. He progressively got worse season by season and eventually got the sack in his 4th season with Milan languishing in the bottom half of the table. According to Milan fans he was the wrong man for the job and they were glad he was fired.
At Juve he was appointed Head Coach by Beppe Marotta amidst much dissapointment amongst the Juventini who were dissapointed by the appointment. He did win a plethora of league titles for a team that was built by Beppe Marotta who provided him with a winning machine which should be noted. Marotta's work behind the scenes is what made Juve the dominant force and not Allegri. You could put most half competent head coaches at Juve under Marotta at the time and they also would've won a plethora of titles due to the superlative work of the Juve GM.
Even at Juve when he eventually departed the Juve fans like the Milan fans before were happy they had got rid of him. He's a cowardly coach that we shouldn't go anywhere near especially with our structure at first team level.
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So at Milan the team regressed due to him and at Juve the team progressed/succeeded despite of him and due to Marotta? Milan had not won the league since 2004 when Allegri won it with them in 2011. Now, they have not won it since 2011. While they did have an expensive team they certainly did not have a Marotta at the time. In fact, you could argue being the coach at Milan in 2011 was just as difficult as being the coach of Man Utd in 2020. Probably even harder.
However, I do agree that Marotta did a great job with Juventus. Marotta knows his football. He also hired Allegri and decided to stick with him for a reason. Tactically, he is probably the best coach out there. He is very highly rated in Italy and with good reason in my opinion.
A few major leagues? Come on now...
Does this criteria apply to Caf favourites Marco Rose and Nagelsmann too? This just puts into perspective about why Ole got the job too, seeing that he has no major leagues under his belt.
I rather Poch win his first title with us tbh.
We want a manager on the way up, waiting for Poch to win a few major leagues is daft in many ways. Even if he did that, there's no guarantee he'll do it here, we know that after the Jose experiment.
I don't think any of Poch, Rose or Nagelsmann will work wonders here to be honest. They'll do an ok job, like Ole.
If the board wants to fire Ole because he has no league winning experience, then it would not make sense to hire managers who have not got that experience either.
Having spent a day or so reflecting upon this thread, I’ve come to the conclusion that the best manager around likely to be able to turn things around with the existing players and change the culture into a winning mentality is Bielsa but I doubt you could prise him away from Leeds where he is idolised.
For a manager to succeed under this board he needs to instill a winning mentality in the team and know how to get players to punch above their weight. That's what Fergie did. So did Klopp and Bielsa. Three of them are impossible though but I think Nagelsmann has these traits.
Would be a disaster with top level players who had a bad or lackadaisical attitude, its why most of his success has come from lower level teams with players who are willing to buy into his style of play which is physically sapping.
And we need this?
Yes because we all want to see Allegri's style of football at OT. Have you learned nothing from watching big name managers like LVG and Mou fail here...seriously?
In the same way we have bought great players but they haven't fitted our system, we have signed managers who are at odds with our philosophy; Allegri would be the epitomy of this kind of rash hiring.
United need to identify a style of play (which we seemingly have done in wanting to create a high press, use width and have an incredibly fit squad) so we should therefore find a manager who coaches this style....Pochettino is such an obvious choice it's painful.
He inherited the best squad in Serie A when he joined Milan and below are quotes from the below link which supports that argument. I also never said he was solely responsible for the debacle at Milan but he played a large part in their malaise which is demonstrated below.
"In his first season Allegri had the best squad in Italy and was able to deliver a Scudetto. That team was star studded, and featured the likes of Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Thiago Silva, Alessandro Nesta, Clarence Seedorf and an inspired Robinho. That squad, coupled with an extremely weak Serie A meant a Scudetto wasn't a pleasant surprise; it was expected, and Allegri was able to live up to expectations in his debut season"
His tactics? Quotes below by people who followed Milan.
"In his second season Allegri once again had the best squad in Serie A. This time, however, Milan choked during the run-in and coughed up the Scudetto in the final weeks to a Juventus squad with much less quality. That famous Sulley Muntari phantom goal certainly played a part in the epic collapse that cost Milan a Scudetto, but at the end of the day, it should have never been in doubt. With that squad and a weak Serie A, Allegri should have delivered a Scudetto. On too many nights it appeared that Milan didn't have a game plan. Their game plan was "give it to Zlatan and let him make magic." As Ibrahimovic went, so did Milan, and when he didn't have "it" on a given night, Allegri looked like he didn't have a plan B".
Just some of his crazy tactical decisions and bad decisions in general below at Milan.
"Allegri also made some crazy player usage decisions, like playing Urby Emanuelson, capped by the Dutch national team at left back, as a trequartista, or playing box-to-box midfielder Kevin-Prince Boateng on the wing, or converting mediocre midfielder Kevin Constant into a shambolic left back. The list goes on and on".
https://acmilan.theoffside.com/platform/amp/2015/11/21/9753256/looking-back-allegri-at-milan
I'm glad you somewhat agree with me about the superlative work Beppe Marotta did at Juve which for me was the main reason for their dominancy. I'd also credit Antonio Conte who was the coach at the time who helped put the wheels in motion.
Has everyone talking about Allegri actually watched his teams play football? He probably is the most successful candidate but his football is boring as hell. Honestly, it makes LVG & Jose look adventurous. I watched a really strong Juve side go and park the bus against mid-table teams.
If you've not really seen his teams play then my advice is just be careful what you wish for. If he set us up like Juve then I think there'd be so many teams taking us apart, or at least having a good go.
If you've not really seen his teams play then my advice is just be careful what you wish for. If he set us up like Juve then I think there'd be so many teams taking us apart, or at least having a good go.
I also think Conte did a good job, but it would be a stretch to credit him for the success of Juve five years after he left.
Allegri has been coach of the year four times in Italy (awarded by the AIC), more than any other coach. He was also awarded the Panchina d'Oro when he was a coach at Cagliari in 2009. It is not hard to find those who argue that he did a great job at Juve and that his spell at Milan was affected by an incompetent board (a view history seem to support) and who disagree strongly with the views you have quoted.
I was going to write a post replying to those that diminish what he achieved at Spurs, but this one sums it up succinctly. It was a superb job and one few could have managed under those circumstances.
I actually can’t believe that people can find a way to play it down. He is a true victim of his own success.
Highly erroneous to equate Bale/Redknapp season to where Spurs were before he took on the job.
He took a team that were never taken seriously as a consistent threat (it’s spurs lads) and made them into a team that no one in Europe enjoyed having to play.
Steam finally ran out after years and years of underinvestment and little player turnover, but United spend money and he would already have a team here with more individual talent than even his peak team at Spurs.
I would be excited to see what he could do.
If Conte didn't throw tantrums at Juve and resign we wouldn't be talking about Allegri today IMO. And Conte's work alongside Beppe Marotta in the back ground is what put the wheels in motion at Juve post Calciopoli.
The board at Milan was bad of course but it further highlighted the bad work Allegri did by getting rid of Pirlo etc and favouring Ambrosini and Van Bommel. A strong board wouldn't have allowed that to happen but the Berlusconi kids did allow that to happen. Also the awful tactical decisions on the pitch can't be blamed on the board. The difference at Juve was that Allegri again inherited a fantastic squad but the difference this time being that Marotta and co, controlled recruitment and had built up a squad along with Antonio Conte which was a winning machine.
Can’t believe people are suggesting Bielsa. He is made for a mid-table team.
He is very respected in the profession for his ideas and knowledge of the game and managers like Simeone and Poch have stated his influence on them and that he has inspired them.
But Bielsa at a top club would only work for a few months if at all. I also think he knows that and doesn’t even want to manage a big club, let alone United with their complicated board.
He is very respected in the profession for his ideas and knowledge of the game and managers like Simeone and Poch have stated his influence on them and that he has inspired them.
But Bielsa at a top club would only work for a few months if at all. I also think he knows that and doesn’t even want to manage a big club, let alone United with their complicated board.
Focussing on the most difficult fixtures gives you an indication of whether the Manager can rally the troops and outwit the opposition. But, you're right I checked the home games and here are the results:
Club | Games* | W | D | L | CS | GF | GA | GD |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Arsenal | 35 | 14 | 12 | 9 | 10 | 56 | 46 | 10 |
Tottenham | 29 | 14 | 6 | 9 | 11 | 42 | 29 | 13 |
United | 32 | 15 | 12 | 5 | 11 | 47 | 30 | 17 |
City | 28 | 15 | 6 | 7 | 7 | 59 | 36 | 23 |
Liverpool | 36 | 18 | 14 | 4 | 10 | 68 | 37 | 31 |
Chelsea | 39 | 21 | 9 | 9 | 16 | 61 | 38 | 23 |
*Top 6 away games all comps during Pochettinos time at Tottenham
| Club | Win % | Draw % | Loss % |
|---|---|---|---|
| Arsenal | 40% | 34% | 26% |
| Tottenham | 48% | 21% | 31% |
| United | 47% | 38% | 16% |
| City | 54% | 21% | 25% |
| Liverpool | 50% | 39% | 11% |
| Chelsea | 54% | 23% | 23% |
The home record for Pochettino doesn't look good either, highest loss %, 2nd worst goal difference, at least his win % is improved. I don't think he's the right fit for us, we don't want a Manager who is incapable of picking up wins in the tough games.
If you combine the home and away games it reads as follows:
| Club | Win % | Draw % | Loss % |
|---|---|---|---|
| Arsenal | 25% | 36% | 39% |
| Tottenham | 28% | 23% | 48% |
| United | 40% | 29% | 32% |
| City | 42% | 22% | 37% |
| Liverpool | 40% | 39% | 21% |
| Chelsea | 36% | 30% | 34% |
Almost a 50% loss rate for fecks sake!
Interesting - cheers @RedSky
At least he’d weed them out and get players in who would follow his lead - though I’d dispute whether the term ‘top level players’ could accurately describe much of this Utd squad
Exactly people talk about him not winning a trophy with that Tottenham team like as if he wasn't the one that built it. Imagine the praise Ancelotti or a new manager would get if he turns fecking Everton to a regular top 4 team and has them come close to winning the league and champions league.
I don't see any harm if Pochettino can come here and in one or two seasons do to us what he did to Tottenham. Even if he doesn't win the league he would have built a team with us that can and then we can get a manager that will deliver titles
You act like he didn't come in to a Tottenham team who were already semi-regular CL qualifiers, and that the teams around him weren't on the verge of collapsing around him and Spurs. And above all, he had fecking Leicester to get past and win the league, which he well and truly shat the bed on.
He's a good manager, but he's a manager for the underdog a la Jose, except he plays a slightly nicer brand of football. He'd have a similarly underwhelming impact here, I'm sure.
Semi regulars but they only qualified for champions league twice in 10 years. Spurs was also on the verge of collapsing after wasting that Bale money. He definitely shat the bed allowing Leceister to win the league but my point is he got them that far in the first place and also to the champions league final.
Pochettino turned Tottenham from underdogs to title challengers. And we are underdogs now. Right now the perfect coach for us would be a modern attacking coach that knows how to turn underdogs to champions but I don't see any modern coach that has done that asides Klopp who has already rejected us.
We are not underdogs. The glare of the spotlight at Utd is so much worse than he would get anywhere else in the country. It really doesn't compare. This man was close to leaving Spurs the season before he left if they had won the CL, ffs. He said cup wins were for egoists. He would never be able to get away with saying shit like that at Utd. The man would probably crumble if his last season at Spurs was anything to go by.
Well I'm not here to persuade you on if Pochettino would be good for us. I'd prefer Nagelsmann but Pochettino is also a good option. And what coach do you think this team needs? I'd laugh if you say Ole