A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino

[starman]

Still you didn't show me where I mentioned your master OGS in my post!
Also do you agree that just as we should deduct Kane's performance from Pochettino's achievements, Martial and perhaps Rashfords goals should be taken away to judge OGS actual record?
And still didn't answer the most important question of all. Who would hire OGS if he is fired now.

Head in sand. Keep it buried that way. Will prevent you from spouting nonsense. Dumdum.

You really do get hurt when Poch is questioned.
The conversation was about comparing Poch with Ole and then you entered it...
Jose and a lot of fans wanted to get rid of Martial, people also entertained the idea with Rashford..Ole rejuvenated them, Kane always been on a upward trajectory since he entered the first team..
Ole has a job, Poch doesnt, there's been plenty available from top clubs yet he hasn't been picked up, maybe chairman of them don't see him as the all seeing, all conquering god you make him out to be.

Keep a lid on your fanboyism and net spend rubbish, hopefully your idol gets a job soon (not at United) and you can enjoy watching the likes of Janssen, Njie and Stambouli

 

[starman]

Wonder why

Why wasnt Flick managing at a top club before Bayern? Why was he only the bridesmaid before than?

 

[starman]

I mean, I just... He's trying to make a point but is serving to reaffirm that Ole just isn't top level. I don't think he can see it though

And yet you have said you have followed the conversation, clearly a lie, I have never claimed Ole to be top level

Anyway, I am out of this thread, spent enough time today talking about someone I don't rate that highly..

 

[UnitedSofa]

Due to the level of one sided, propaganda, agenda driven bullshit in the tweet, I'll give the thread a miss.

Almost like this whole thread

 

[Robbie Boy]

And yet you have said you have followed the conversation, clearly a lie, I have never claimed Ole to be top level

Errrr what? I never said you did? You are trying to make a point re Ole, but instead you're actually reaffirming that he was never highly thought of, which is why no one ever went for him after Cardiff. We hired him based on nepotism and his ties with the club and certainly not his managerial credentials.

Meanwhile, Poch made a positive name for himself around Europe and ended up at Spurs after doing well at Espanyol and Spurs. He was also courted by several really elite sides and made it to the CL Final with Spurs. All the while, Ole slugged it out in Norway and would still be there were it not for our badly run club.

Yet, you don't see him as a big step up from Ole and crazily ask why he hasn't won anything while saying Ole has won something. You ignore all context to why that is, and bizarrely- to strengthen your case but actually weakened it - you say Poch has longevity over Ole. When it's pointed out to you that they've been managing for pretty much the same amount of time, you argue that Ole has had less time at a top club. I mean, surely you can see you're having a mare here. Why is it that Ole spent so much time in Norway while Poch was making a real name for himself as a manger? The answer is pretty obvious.

I'm not even a Poch 'fan' per se and never engage in discussion about him but you are talking all kinds of nonsense in here. He's evidently a far more talented manager than Ole. Ask any neutral who they would rather have and your answer would be damning. Is he the right man for us? I have no idea but he's a massive upgrade on what we have.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Almost like this whole thread

At least you acknowledge the tweet was a load of old tosh.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Errrr what? I never said you did? You are trying to make a point re Ole, but instead you're actually reaffirming that he was never highly thought of, which is why no one ever went for him after Cardiff. We hired him based on nepotism and his ties with the club and certainly not his managerial credentials.

Meanwhile, Poch made a positive name for himself around Europe and ended up at Spurs after doing well at Espanyol and Spurs. He was also courted by several really elite sides and made it to the CL Final with Spurs. All the while, Ole slugged it out in Norway and would still be there were it not for our badly run club.

Yet, you don't see him as a big step up from Ole and crazily ask why he hasn't won anything while saying Ole has won something. You ignore all context to why that is, and bizarrely- to strengthen your case but actually weakened it - you say Poch has longevity over Ole. When it's pointed out to you that they've been managing for pretty much the same amount of time, you argue that Ole has had less time at a top club. I mean, surely you can see you're having a mare here. Why is it that Ole spent so much time in Norway while Poch was making a real name for himself as a manger? The answer is pretty obvious.

I'm not even a Poch 'fan' per se and never engage in discussion about him but you are talking all kinds of nonsense in here. He's evidently a far more talented manager than Ole. Ask any neutral who they would rather have and your answer would be damning. Is he the right man for us? I have no idea but he's a massive upgrade on what we have.

the big point you miss here is that for any other club he didn’t spend a decade playing for one of the greatest managers that ever lived, and didn’t manage their reserve side.

In the same way, no other PL Club would be interested in Frank Lampard.

 

[Robbie Boy]

the big point you miss here is that for any other club he didn’t spend a decade playing for one of the greatest managers that ever lived, and didn’t manage their reserve side.

In the same way, no other PL Club would be interested in Frank Lampard.

Lampard was managing in the Championship and doing a good job at Derby. Chances are, he would have made his way up to the PL one way or another. Yes, no one, at that point bar Chelsea would have taken a punt but he had been managing one year at that stage.

The point is that if Ole was a good enough manager, someone in his 7/8 year management career prior to joining us would have snapped him up. Had he walked straight in as a first venture into management like Pirlo, then that's a different story. But Ole has now been in club management for over a decade. He's not a novice.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Lampard was managing in the Championship and doing a good job at Derby. Chances are, he would have made his way up to the PL one way or another. Yes, no one, at that point bar Chelsea would have taken a punt but he had been managing one year at that stage.

The point is that if Ole was a good enough manager, someone in his 7/8 year management career prior to joining us would have snapped him up. Had he walked straight in as a first venture into management like Pirlo, then that's a different story. But Ole has now been in club management for over a decade. He's not a novice.

look I’m trying to stay out of this argument, as it’s pretty reductive.

the point I was making is that some managers clearly have a bigger attachment to a club. Lampard, OGS etc. Thus using the argument that no other PL team would be interested has flaws.

anyway. We don’t have to slag off either OGS or Poch just to make the point that we prefer the other one.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

People keep bringing up the fact that Pochettino has not won anything like as if we already have a team good enough to win major titles. What we need is infact a manager that knows how to build a team from top 6 to one that can challenge for the pl and champions league. We can call for a manager that knows how to win titles when we have a team good enough to challenge. It's much harder to find managers that can turn a top 6 team to one challenging for major titles than it is to find a manager that can win titles with a squad already good enough to win

I like the team Ole is building and because of this I'd say he should stay till his contract ends next season despite knowing he's not good enough tactically. But this is only if he keeps having us in top 4 and as soon as that is looking unlikely then we bring in Pochettino to continue building the team. Other coaches like Nagelsman are good options but how many of them can operate without a DoF and have also built a team to the point of challenging for major titles.

Don't care if Pochettino has not won anything, not when we don't have a team that is good enough to challenge. We need to build that team first which Pochettino has proven to do

 

[Robbie Boy]

look I’m trying to stay out of this argument, as it’s pretty reductive.

the point I was making is that some managers clearly have a bigger attachment to a club. Lampard, OGS etc. Thus using the argument that no other PL team would be interested has flaws.

anyway. We don’t have to slag off either OGS or Poch just to make the point that we prefer the other one.

But I think a manger should be judged based on their time spent managing. The club connections thing really only applies if it's a novice taking over a big club they have connections to like Pep, Pirlo, Zidane etc.

Ole has been managing for over a decade and managed teams that played in the PL, Championship, Norwegian league and EL prior to joining us. If he were good enough, a bigger club than Molde would have snapped him up long before we did.

When he is eventually inevitably sacked, no decent team will go near him due to the fact that in over a decade in senior management, he's proven he's not a top level manager. I get what you're saying but, for me, that would only be applicable if he had of started managing us right after he retired.

Re the last part: I totally agree. I only got dragged into this as there was some proper nonsense being spouted.

 

[GlastonSpur]

On a far smaller budget (compared to United) - both for wages and transfer fees - Poch accomplished at Spurs things which Ole is very unlikely to ever do: finish 2nd in the Prem, take his team to a CL final and finish in the top 4 in four consecutive seasons.

He has vastly more experience as a manager than Ole ... and it shows. Ole just passively sits in the dugout, even when his team is being taken apart at the seams. He shows very little fight or energy - so it's hardly surprising when his players follow his example.

 

[Cassidy]

Why wasnt Flick managing at a top club before Bayern? Why was he only the bridesmaid before than?

Didnt know Ole was an assistant for all these years. Riiiggghhhhttt

 

[CaptainBirdseye]

He's worth considering, but it's honestly a shame that we're seeing snippets in the press etc. about potential new managers so soon after what frankly was an abysmal transfer market showing by the higher ups

 

[VP89]

He's worth considering, but it's honestly a shame that we're seeing snippets in the press etc. about potential new managers so soon after what frankly was an abysmal transfer market showing by the higher ups

Ole has enough quality in his squad as it stands to have them perform better than the shite we've seen the opening 3 fixtures.

 

[Adnan]

 

[FrankDrebin]

"Louis Van Gaal Jose Mourinho Pochettino is waiting for the “right project that will allow him to fully utilise his experience and abilities on the big stage”.

 

[Hawks2008]

Obviously he is a better coach than Ole, knows the league, and will probably make us more cohesive and solid unit but I'm not convinced he is the guy to bring us back to competing for the top honours.

Would love us to be brave and go for an emerging manager like Nagelsman but not holding my breath.

 

[He'sRaldo]

"Louis Van Gaal Jose Mourinho Pochettino is waiting for the “right project that will allow him to fully utilise his experience and abilities on the big stage”.

And so on and so on until we get a really good manager.

The fans should really get used to it.

 

[criticalanalysis]

Great Thread

Let's forget all other context. Imagine if this was Poch/anyone else:

Interim manager 8 months with the Utd squad the season prior.
A full summer and with his own transfers consisting of a £50m full back, £80m centre back and £45m attacking midfielder in Jan.
Have us play like strangers, either blitzing teams with individual brilliance or looking like a disorganised mess.
Scraping third with a ridiculous low 66 points.
Start the new season with 2 losses in the league already at home.

We would all be saying 'wtf is this shit'.

If we were dominating teams with suffocating possession, pressing, defensive or attacking football BUT losing due to counter attacking/shithousery opposition, I think many of us would say 'not good enough but at least we have a vision and he's/the players are not executing' and give some benefit of the doubt. Now? We look no better than that we did 18 months ago post new manager bounce.

We've improved off the field no doubt, Ole deserves massive credit for it. On the field is just not good enough and no amount of hoping/giving more time is going to change he is out of his depth here.

 

[tenpoless]

Great Thread

Ok Anna Neville we hold your opinion as high as that of Gary. Who is this person and why should we care about what she has to say? you could flip it around if it was another manager and he's spent this much and his team started the season this badly, people will question him rather than praising him. It's all about context I suppose.

 

[ghagua]

There are little hints here and there now. Fairly confident Poc will be at United by Christmas. Can't see United navigating these upcoming tough round of fixtures without some casualties.

 

[tenpoless]

On a far smaller budget (compared to United) - both for wages and transfer fees - Poch accomplished at Spurs things which Ole is very unlikely to ever do: finish 2nd in the Prem, take his team to a CL final and finish in the top 4 in four consecutive seasons.

He has vastly more experience as a manager than Ole ... and it shows. Ole just passively sits in the dugout, even when his team is being taken apart at the seams. He shows very little fight or energy - so it's hardly surprising when his players follow his example.

Who is this? The Undertaker coming back from India?

 

[RedSky]

Just requoting this:

I'm sorry, but your post below states the following:



Yet i've just shown you clear proof that when it came to the big games when tactics really do matter. Pochettino was shit, like super, super shit. Winning 3 games in 5 and a half seasons. You can't state a Manager is tactically superior when the stats clearly suggest the opposite. I'm pretty sure if you checked David Moyes record against the top 6 at Everton, he would be able to match 3 away wins.

Stats - Top 6 League Away Games	Pochettino	Ole
Games	28	7
Goals Scored	31	6
Goals Conceded	53	8
Clean Sheets	1	2
Wins	3	3
Draws	9	1
Losses	16	3
Win %	10.7%	42.9%
Draw %	32.1%	14.3%
Loss %	57.1%	42.9%
Goals Per Game	1.1	0.9
Goals Conceded Per Game	1.9	1.1

Here's the total record of the Top 6 League Games as well in case you're interested:

Stats - Top 6 League Games	Pochettino	Ole
Games	53	15
Goals Scored	70	17
Goals Conceded	78	14
Clean Sheets	10	5
Wins	15	6
Draws	15	5
Losses	23	4
Win %	28.3%	40.0%
Draw %	28.3%	33.3%
Loss %	43.4%	26.7%
Goals Per Game	1.3	1.1
Goals Conceded Per Game	1.5	0.9

Pochettino was able to build a very good squad to take on poor teams, but failed epicly against the big boys when it truly mattered. Which is probably why he won sweet feck all.

I think some of you might not understand what we'd be getting with Pochettino and that isn't trophies. 3 away wins in 28 with Tottenham, three. Let that sink in, THREE.

 

[HowYouDoin]

Lets see. Took his team to the Champions league final and still in his prime as a manager, yes he is the right choice. Maybe the only right choice.
Is he the one to take us to the next step? Well making the champions league finals would be nice. He's done it...
Thats alot different than Ole and his success or whatever it was at Cardiff.
Different from Mourinho and Van Gaal as he is in his prime as a manager right now.
And different from Moyes cuz we've seen them both in the premier league.

Sometimes the most obvious answer is the right answer. Poch is the most obvious answer.

 

[HowYouDoin]

I mean I agree that Poch isn't the best candidate around but you're kidding if you don't think strategically and team building wise he isn't like 300000000% better than Ole.

Nailed it with the 30000000% part.
And yes I do think he is the best manager around for us. Its just so obvious.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

feck sentiment. He should put himself aside for the betterment of our club.

 

[RedBanker]

You really do get hurt when Poch is questioned.
The conversation was about comparing Poch with Ole and then you entered it...
Jose and a lot of fans wanted to get rid of Martial, people also entertained the idea with Rashford..Ole rejuvenated them, Kane always been on a upward trajectory since he entered the first team..
Ole has a job, Poch doesnt, there's been plenty available from top clubs yet he hasn't been picked up, maybe chairman of them don't see him as the all seeing, all conquering god you make him out to be.

Keep a lid on your fanboyism and net spend rubbish, hopefully your idol gets a job soon (not at United) and you can enjoy watching the likes of Janssen, Njie and Stambouli

I have seen some shit posting and shit posters over the last decade on the Caf. But you take the cake. Cultists like you are what is ailing the fanbase at the moment. Hope you can someday get rid of your blind hatred, irrespective of whether Pochettino or any other top coach manages us. But for now keep supporting your idol like the cultist you are. See if that saves his bacon. Find a thread where you can brown-nose him properly. And maybe feck off with him when United do get a new manager. Lunatic. Ignored.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Just requoting this:



I think some of you might not understand what we'd be getting with Pochettino and that isn't trophies. 3 away wins in 28 with Tottenham, three. Let that sink in, THREE.

Shocking stats indeed which probably why he's been bottling his chances when he can actually win it. Pochettino tactic seems to be one only which is high press with attacking full back, he can apply that system into different formation but he lacks of other plan which often exploit by opposition top team in crucial match.

The fact is that he also can't adjust to different system that suits the player for example everything was shown in his final season when both Aldeweireld & Vertonghen were too old means they don't have the leg for Poch's high press and he is forcing his ageing centre back & also deadwood full backs to play his system.

Whether he was aware before the 19/20 season started that he needs new back four to play his style but the club couldn't afford them or it was just poor man management from him that he wasn't aware that he needs new whole back four. Who knows.

People can talk about limited budget but the money he spent most are the ones didn't work out well while the ones he didn't spend much are actually the ones worked out well for him.

However, manager can developed, improving and evolved to different manager through failure and experience. May be he has learnt a thing and two. Poch has potential to be top manager but there are doubts whether he can win trophies or no. After all football manager isn't just about coaching but also man management.

 

[CG1010]

It's laughable even after 7 years of experience, our fans see XYZ manager as the saviour of the club. It was the same with Jose Mourinho and before him, LVG, with post-facto rationalisation to explain why they failed and XYZ would succeed.

The fact is we have had exactly the same problems across 4 managers with wildly different philosophies. It's time to look at the common factor, i.e. , Woodword. Superior manager or not, I have no confidence Poch would be able to change anything here.

 

[Escobar]

Obviously he is a better coach than Ole, knows the league, and will probably make us more cohesive and solid unit but I'm not convinced he is the guy to bring us back to competing for the top honours.

Would love us to be brave and go for an emerging manager like Nagelsman but not holding my breath.

Agreed. Time to move onfor real but we all know Ed

 

[Micky Targaryen]

Imagine being one of these posters that think their opinion is a fact. If thats you, yes, that is where the debate end, if not you can actually post something of substance to add weight to your point.

There are an abundant of other posts with substance explaining how Poch is clearly a better coach than Ole. To even need an explanation to this is incredible. Well, you’re entitled to your own opinion I guess.

 

[SeaCarrot]

Surprised anyone could make an argument that Ole is a better on the field manager than Poch. He clearly isn’t.

Poch is a much better tactician and plays better football. That doesn’t however mean he’d do any better at United than Ole as there are intangibles involved.

A squad full of prima-Donna’s who think they are gods gift and being massively overpaid. Ole at least has club clout and an innate respect which you’d think would translate into forward progress off the field or on. End of last season was an example, while so far this season is a counter.

Put them both in charge of an identical 11 and play each other I’m certain poch would win 8 times out of 10.

But rebuilding the culture of the club and restructuring the wage budget are massive things for United at the moment and I think that should take precedence.

Personally I wouldn’t mind finishing 7th the next two years if it meant we changed how we operated, getting rid of massive wages and deadwood and stopped paying shite mid table tier players 100+k a week so we can never sell them for a decent fee.

 

[Needham]

Surprised anyone could make an argument that Ole is a better on the field manager than Poch. He clearly isn’t.

Poch is a much better tactician and plays better football. That doesn’t however mean he’d do any better at United than Ole as there are intangibles involved.

A squad full of prima-Donna’s who think they are gods gift and being massively overpaid. Ole at least has club clout and an innate respect which you’d think would translate into forward progress off the field or on. End of last season was an example, while so far this season is a counter.

Put them both in charge of an identical 11 and play each other I’m certain poch would win 8 times out of 10.

But rebuilding the culture of the club and restructuring the wage budget are massive things for United at the moment and I think that should take precedence.

Personally I wouldn’t mind finishing 7th the next two years if it meant we changed how we operated, getting rid of massive wages and deadwood and stopped paying shite mid table tier players 100+k a week so we can never sell them for a decent fee.

He is a better manager in every single regard and certainly in the most important one of all: track record. It tailed off for a calendar year at Spurs -a time period that includes a CL final- but up until then and at each club he has worked at he has achieved increasing levels of success. He has huge self belief that will communicate itself to the players in a way, unfortunately, that Ole can't. And he is youngish and -based on his nearly man-ness- surely very hungry to go all the way. There's no debate between Poch and Ole, there is only a debate between Poch and whether people have the stomach to endure the managerial spin of the dice one more time.

 

[Giggsyking]

Compared to Ole, Poch is Sir Alex

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

It's laughable even after 7 years of experience, our fans see XYZ manager as the saviour of the club. It was the same with Jose Mourinho and before him, LVG, with post-facto rationalisation to explain why they failed and XYZ would succeed.

The fact is we have had exactly the same problems across 4 managers with wildly different philosophies. It's time to look at the common factor, i.e. , Woodword. Superior manager or not, I have no confidence Poch would be able to change anything here.

Football is a very simple game. Get the right manager in like Klopp when Liverpool did and Woodward would be considered a genius now. We have spent more than Liverpool since Klopp got there. Imagine Klopp with even more money.

 

[Matriac]

Are you serious? La Liga/PL vs the Norwegian league. Like...

Sure we can hire Neill Lennon. He's won a shit tonne and obviously context doesn't apply. There's a reason Ole has spent the majority of his managerial career in Norway.

Probably has a lot to do with the fact that Ole's oldest kid is the same age as Poch's youngest.

Ole's youngest is 10-11 now, and it makes sense to me that he wanted his kids to have a foundational upbringing in the same area as he and his wife did. Growing up close to their family etc.

Especially because he could also combine it with a job in the area that was interesting enough (Molde) and he could develop his managerial talents/experience, while having the option to go abroad again later if he wanted to when the kids got older.


I'm not saying that Ole is necessarily better than Poch, but I'm not convinced that he is worse either. If Ole got fired tomorrow I wouldn't feel real excited about the prospect of hiring Poch, but I would of course support him to do well if we did.

My opinion is that I think Ole has taken the club in a positive direction since joining, and I've felt proper excited about watching our games again.
The performance in the new season now has been troubling, but I don't think it's time to fire Ole just yet. I think he deserves more time with the results so far. Time will tell if he is up for the task or not.

I just take offense to those using his extended stay in Norway as proof that he couldn't work elsewhere. His family made sacrifices for him his entire career, it was only fair that he returned the favor while his kids were young after his time at United had run its course.

 

[Cassidy]

Probably has a lot to do with the fact that Ole's oldest kid is the same age as Poch's youngest.

Ole's youngest is 10-11 now, and it makes sense to me that he wanted his kids to have a foundational upbringing in the same area as he and his wife did. Growing up close to their family etc.

Especially because he could also combine it with a job in the area that was interesting enough (Molde) and he could develop his managerial talents/experience, while having the option to go abroad again later if he wanted to when the kids got older.


I'm not saying that Ole is necessarily better than Poch, but I'm not convinced that he is worse either. If Ole got fired tomorrow I wouldn't feel real excited about the prospect of hiring Poch, but I would of course support him to do well if we did.

My opinion is that I think Ole has taken the club in a positive direction since joining, and I've felt proper excited about watching our games again.
The performance in the new season now has been troubling, but I don't think it's time to fire Ole just yet. I think he deserves more time with the results so far. Time will tell if he is up for the task or not.

I just take offense to those using his extended stay in Norway as proof that he couldn't work elsewhere. His family made sacrifices for him his entire career, it was only fair that he returned the favor while his kids were young after his time at United had run its course.

Nothing to do with bombing at Cardiff then

 

[NWRed]

Koeman became Barca manager....

How about you actually give him a chance to make a claim. He did attract PL interest initially from his work at Molde after all, there were other clubs after him, not only Cardiff.
Poch was Spurs manager for 5 years and won nothing, and bottled multiple chances, if Spurs stuck with him, he potentially could have put a nail into his reputation, as it stands the mythology around him remains.

If Ole can repeat the same as last year, close the gap and win a trophy, he will move up in the reputation stakes.
That said Ole's also showed his bottling of chances, missing out on top 4 in his first (half season) year and not at least converting 3 semi finals into a final.

I think you are overrating Poch, I don't rate either that highly, if we get Poch, it would be more of a side step than anything.

This is hardly supporting the decision, Barca, along with us, are one of the most incompetently run clubs in world football.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Just requoting this:



I think some of you might not understand what we'd be getting with Pochettino and that isn't trophies. 3 away wins in 28 with Tottenham, three. Let that sink in, THREE.

Yes but he’s so obviously better than Ole according to some. It’s a fact, he’s better!! Don’t come here with stats like that.

It would be a sideways step and nothing more