A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino

InLevyITrust said:
I cant agree with you at al sorry, good talented players will be good talented players of course a coach can guide and instil a training program but its on the player to develop through hard work. I'm not saying Poch didn't improve our squad but I am saying the players he had were talented.

You forget Poch was sacked..... he didn't walk. Yes he could have got more funds but sadly we had a training ground and new stadium to pay for. He got money in the summer past, but it was too late for him IMO and it was tiem for him to move on.

If you are talking about moving Eriksen on sooner, how do you sell a player that doesn't wanna be sold? His end game was to run his contract down just like he did at Ajax.
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I have never said they were not talented.

Why does it make a difference if he was sacked, he was promised funds the summer he signed and got 0, everything went down hill after that because he publicly started becoming disillusioned. It is what eventually led to his sacking as well as the poor performances. It is as if you want to make excuses for Levy, fact is your club messed up a really good situation with Poch. That is not to say Poch didn't have his faults but time will tell who was right and who was wrong.

Moving players on: Take a leaf from Fergies book, you do not keep a squad together longer than 3/4 years, you need to refresh it. Spurs didn't, Poch rang the alarm bells and your club failed to do what was required, not to mention the issues with pay disparity.

Poch had flaws, didn't win a trophy, he didn't manage to push over the final hurdle, it is a question mark over him as a coach. Reaching a UCL final though is no mean feat. Losing to Liverpool in the final is no disgrace they are probably the best team in Europe. Fergie lost 2 finals vs Barca, it happens.

I was always of the impression that Spurs lacked an xfactor creative goal scoring player, for me Eriksen wasn't the one for the big occasion. Son was becoming that player but more from a goal scorer point of view. You were missing a Hazard, Bale, Sanchez, KDB type player who you could rely on in those massive games. FA cup semis, UCL finals etc.

However yes you can critisise Poch for not winning a trophy without turning a blind eye to the mess Levy created by failing to keep public promises made to Poch and failing to heed the words of his coach when he rang the alarm bells about the squad
 
Cassidy said:
I have never said they were not talented.

Why does it make a difference if he was sacked, he was promised funds the summer he signed and got 0, everything went down hill after that because he publicly started becoming disillusioned. It is what eventually led to his sacking as well as the poor performances. It is as if you want to make excuses for Levy, fact is your club messed up a really good situation with Poch. That is not to say Poch didn't have his faults but time will tell who was right and who was wrong.

Moving players on: Take a leaf from Fergies book, you do not keep a squad together longer than 3/4 years, you need to refresh it. Spurs didn't, Poch rang the alarm bells and your club failed to do what was required, not to mention the issues with pay disparity.

Poch had flaws, didn't win a trophy, he didn't manage to push over the final hurdle, it is a question mark over him as a coach. Reaching a UCL final though is no mean feat. Losing to Liverpool in the final is no disgrace they are probably the best team in Europe. Fergie lost 2 finals vs Barca, it happens.

I was always of the impression that Spurs lacked an xfactor creative goal scoring player, for me Eriksen wasn't the one for the big occasion. Son was becoming that player but more from a goal scorer point of view. You were missing a Hazard, Bale, Sanchez, KDB type player who you could rely on in those massive games. FA cup semis, UCL finals etc.

However yes you can critisise Poch for not winning a trophy without turning a blind eye to the mess Levy created by failing to keep public promises made to Poch and failing to heed the words of his coach when he rang the alarm bells about the squad
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Tottenham are not on the same scale as Fergies time at United, hell even United now aren't on the same scale as his time at United. Levy publicly stated we would not be in a position to spend, and our transfer dealings would stay as they were, sell to buy. Which public promises are you saying Levy made?

Oh course it makes a difference Poch wanted to remain and try to turn it round... if his head was indeed turned why would he? Let me guess he didn't wanna stay and just wanted the pay off? Levy has made mistakes but on a whole he has turned our club around massively from where it was, if people cant see that they need to look at the history and what Sugar did to us. Then look at other clubs like Leeds, Villa etc of the same era.

Don't mention the road to the UCL final, a successful clusterfeck if we are being honest.
 
InLevyITrust said:
Tottenham are not on the same scale as Fergies time at United, hell even United now aren't on the same scale as his time at United. Levy publicly stated we would not be in a position to spend, and our transfer dealings would stay as they were, sell to buy. Which public promises are you saying Levy made?

Oh course it makes a difference Poch wanted to remain and try to turn it round... if his head was indeed turned why would he? Let me guess he didn't wanna stay and just wanted the pay off? Levy has made mistakes but on a whole he has turned our club around massively from where it was, if people cant see that they need to look at the history and what Sugar did to us. Then look at other clubs like Leeds, Villa etc of the same era.

Don't mention the road to the UCL final, a successful clusterfeck if we are being honest.
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Its this type of thing that irks me, he got you to a UCL final and you can't even give him credit, its shocking.

I think Levy has done a fantastic job overall, but that doesn't mean I don't think he massively fecked things up with Poch.
Hiring Jose may be his biggest mistake yet, but we're getting off topic now.

However when it comes to appointing managers, he hasn't been very good at it anyway and Poch seems to have been a lucky swing, before and after him seems to have been poor appointments, again time will tell
 
Cassidy said:
Its this type of thing that irks me, he got you to a UCL final and you can even give him credit, its shocking.

I think Levy has done a fantastic job overall, but that doesn't mean I don't think he massively fecked things up with Poch.
Hiring Jose may be his biggest mistake yet, but we're getting off topic now.
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Irks you? Why? Of course he was our coach that got us there, and of course I give him credit but was it a tactical masterclass? Its funny how we were called lucky for getting their by nearly all opposition fans when Poch was our coach but now hes not its "Oh my god he has got Spurs to a CL Final", you can forget the fake shock. I'm more balanced, again I loved the guy and was incredibly sad to see him leave, genuinely heart broken, but I could see his faults when he was our coach and can see them now. You can think he will go to United and turn things round which he will, given the time to do so, his time with us was over sadly.

Another thing, Poch was criticized on here for being a "dirty" coach, now that's all forgotten, I actually like his style and the way he does encourage a little deceit on the pitch.
 
I am not his biggest fan but I will take him. Maybe just maybe this squad would suit him. Young players he can develop into superstars.
 
InLevyITrust said:
Irks you? Why? Of course he was our coach that got us there, and of course I give him credit but was it a tactical masterclass? Its funny how we were called lucky for getting their by nearly all opposition fans when Poch was our coach but now hes not its "Oh my god he has got Spurs to a CL Final", you can forget the fake shock. I'm more balanced, again I loved the guy and was incredibly sad to see him leave, genuinely heart broken, but I could see his faults when he was our coach and can see them now. You can think he will go to United and turn things round which he will, given the time to do so, his time with us was over sadly.

Another thing, Poch was criticized on here for being a "dirty" coach, now that's all forgotten, I actually like his style and the way he does encourage a little deceit on the pitch.
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Most top coaches are dirty, its not forgotten. City are one of the dirtiest sides in the league, Pool are no saints either.

Looks I never called you lucky, sides who win trophies are always lucky, plenty have called Liverpool lucky this season and LiVARpool thats just what people do. You do not get to a UCL final with luck alone. Heck our treble we had plenty of luck to win the UCL final, but it wasn't luck alone, you make your own luck
 
Maluco said:
I feel sorry for Poch.

He has Spurs, of all teams, consistently qualifying for the Champions League and even takes them to a final! Spurs in a CL final!

He doesn’t do this because they got a sugar daddy or were bought by a small country. In fact, he does it under severe financial constraints, a ridiculously low net spend and wage restrictions which dwarf their wage bill in comparison to the sides he has no business competing with.

After 5 years of this and little to no help from above (infamously signing no one at all at one stage), he finally succumbs to mounting player unrest due to low wages and a lack of opportunity to really refresh the squad.

He did this all with Spurs, of all teams, consistently, season after season...and then people say “let’s stick with Ole, he is not a winner”.

I think he did an absolutely stellar job at Spurs under really difficult circumstances. We are seeing now just how overrated the squad is and how he had them playing above themselves season after season.

How people believe that he wouldn’t be doing better than Ole is hard to fathom. Judging him at the very end of his stint there, after years and years of testing conditions, doesn’t make sense.
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Doesn't paint the whole picture though does it.

The year before he arrived, Spurs starting 11:

Lloris
Walker
Dawson
Vertonghen
Rose
Paulinho
Dembele
Lennon
Erikson
Chadli
Saldado

Subs:
Adebayor
Defoe
Sigursson
Kane
Lamela
Kaboul
Naughton
Bentaleb
Townsend

It was a good squad, years in the making, with Levy's steady guidance and careful long term planning. Despite being a good coach, Poch didn't drastically change Spurs stature, they were already well on a path of gradual upward trajectory - and Poch's appointment followed a pattern of appointing better managers as Spurs became a more attractive job. Levy deserves the largest portion of recognition.



SeasonPtsPos
18/19714Mauricio Pochettino
17/18773Mauricio Pochettino
16/17862Mauricio Pochettino
15/16703Mauricio Pochettino
14/15645Mauricio Pochettino
13/14696Tim Sherwood
12/13725André Villas-Boas
11/12694Harry Redknapp
10/11625Harry Redknapp
09/10704Harry Redknapp
08/09518Harry Redknapp
07/084611Juande Ramos
06/07605Martin Jol
05/06655Martin Jol
04/05529Martin Jol
03/044514David Pleat
02/035010Glenn Hoddle
01/02509Glenn Hoddle


He's better than Ole, that can't be argued. But as for turning this sinking ship around, he hasn't demonstrated he can reform a severely declining team and they way it plays - so he's as much as a gamble as anyone else. He built upon the strong foundations already set at Spurs.

I wouldn't be against his appointment, but he's far from a tactical genius like some make out.
 
Cassidy said:
Most top coaches are dirty, its not forgotten. City are one of the dirtiest sides in the league, Pool are no saints either.

Looks I never called you lucky, sides who win trophies are always lucky, plenty have called Liverpool lucky this season and LiVARpool thats just what people do. You do not get to a UCL final with luck alone. Heck our treble we had plenty of luck to win the UCL final, but it wasn't luck alone, you make your own luck
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Or you have VAR :lol:.
 
I find it funny that those most vehemently against Pochettino are generally those who are still supportive of Ole. And their defense of Ole is usually that he's building a new side, improving young players, and we need to give him time to do it, and doing all the right things. Yet Poch has already done those things at another fecking club. Oh, and Poch has never won anything, because, you know, we're clearly going to win things under Ole aren't we.

In essence it's basically "Why would I get rid of this manager to get a manager who has proven he can do the same job much better". Madness.
 
Massive Spanner said:
I find it funny that those most vehemently against Pochettino are generally those who are still supportive of Ole. And their defense of Ole is usually that he's building a new side, improving young players, and we need to give him time to do it, and doing all the right things. Yet Poch has already done those things at another fecking club. Oh, and Poch has never won anything, because, you know, we're clearly going to win things under Ole aren't we.

In essence it's basically "Why would I get rid of this manager to get a manager who has proven he can do the same job much better". Madness.
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The theory about he has never won a trophy is a just a way of people trying to justify not getting him.

Di Matteo won the UCL doesnt mean he is a good manager.

Poch has shown he can improve teams, the same Spurs team doesnt look any better under Jose.

He took the Spurs team and got them playing good football as well but ultimately he was not backed which caused his downfall.

I think he is better than Ole and we should get him in.
 
romufc said:
The theory about he has never won a trophy is a just a way of people trying to justify not getting him.

Di Matteo won the UCL doesnt mean he is a good manager.

Poch has shown he can improve teams, the same Spurs team doesnt look any better under Jose.

He took the Spurs team and got them playing good football as well but ultimately he was not backed which caused his downfall.

I think he is better than Ole and we should get him in.
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Steve Bruce is better than Ole to be honest
 
I think fundamentally he is a better coach than Ole but that isn’t really a high bar. I’m not convinced that he’s the right man at this point
 
InLevyITrust said:
Alli has been shite since his first season, Dier and Rose deteriorated under Poch after their debut seasons. I loved Poch and will always be entirely grateful for him but people need to look at him as a whole many Spurs supporters had issues with him long before he was sacked, needs a much more balanced view of him and that is what I am trying to do, if you want to believe his is flawless go right ahead but its a bit of a silly way to look at anything to do with football. Again as I have stated MANY times I loved the guy, he is a quality coach, why do we have to be childish and say "aww a Spurs fan would say that".
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Its not flawless, but what he achieved with Spurs was really impressive. I just feel like you are rewriting the narrative now that he is gone.

Spurs fans got used to being in the CL like it was a given and convinced themselves that they had one of the best squads in the league.

The fact is, there were always average players and flaws in Spurs squad and they never really fixed them. Given that, it’s impressive what he achieved.

To judge him on not winning something major with a team who never win anything, in a league that have 4-5 other teams far more accustomed to winning and consistently outspending him, is a strange one.
 
Of course he will improve the team, Ole has already started the process of getting rid of some of the so called deadwood, although there are still a few more to go, has brought in three very good players in AWB, Maguire and James (always thought he would be long term), introduced Greenwood and Williams into the regular squad, improved Fred, McTominay, Rashford, and also been without Pogba for most of the season. So any new manager coming in would get better results as Pogba and McTominay will be back soon.
 
Lynty said:
Doesn't paint the whole picture though does it.

The year before he arrived, Spurs starting 11:

Lloris
Walker
Dawson - not good enough
Vertonghen
Rose
Paulinho - not good enough
Dembele
Lennon - not good enough
Erikson
Chadli - not good enough
Saldado - not good enough

Subs:
Adebayor - not interested
Defoe - past it
Sigursson - not good enough
Kane
Lamela
Kaboul - not good enough
Naughton - not good enough
Bentaleb - not good enough
Townsend - not good enough


He's better than Ole, that can't be argued. But as for turning this sinking ship around, he hasn't demonstrated he can reform a severely declining team and they way it plays - so he's as much as a gamble as anyone else. He built upon the strong foundations already set at Spurs.

I wouldn't be against his appointment, but he's far from a tactical genius like some make out.
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The squad you posted isn't a very good one, infact its quite a poor one for trying to come top3 something Poch achieved 3 times
Are you going to ignore the job he did at Southampton too.. or
 
Maluco said:
Its not flawless, but what he achieved with Spurs was really impressive. I just feel like you are rewriting the narrative now that he is gone.

Spurs fans got used to being in the CL like it was a given and convinced themselves that they had one of the best squads in the league.

The fact is, there were always average players and flaws in Spurs squad and they never really fixed them. Given that, it’s impressive what he achieved.

To judge him on not winning something major with a team who never win anything, in a league that have 4-5 other teams far more accustomed to winning and consistently outspending him, is a strange one.
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What am I rewriting? He got us to 2 finals and 2 semis, no trophy?

He was in a league at the time where City, Liverpool and United were in transition and Leicester won the league? How is this strange?

His in game tactical nous has always been in question and his favourites is incredibly annoying.

Again I loved the guy, he built a very good team and no doubt influenced the development of Kane, Son, Winks. I mentioned many of these flaws when he was with us, so what am I rewriting? Players also regressed under him after starting out well, Rose and Dier the main 2. Again he is a good coach done a very good job with us, but as mentioned above like anyone he has his flaws.
 
Maluco said:
To judge him on not winning something major with a team who never win anything, in a league that have 4-5 other teams far more accustomed to winning and consistently outspending him, is a strange one.
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This. Lots of people judging on not winning a trophy is pointless.

I know Klopp won the title in Germany but at Liverpool he was labelled a Final failure because he lost a few finals, but look at the Liverpool team now.

People under rate how well he done with that Spurs team as well.

Calls for Tuchel, Allegri because they have won titles but most managers win the league at Juve or PSG.
 
InLevyITrust said:
What am I rewriting? He got us to 2 finals and 2 semis, no trophy?

He was in a league at the time where City, Liverpool and United were in transition and Leicester won the league? How is this strange?

His in game tactical nous has always been in question and his favourites is incredibly annoying.

Again I loved the guy, he built a very good team and no doubt influenced the development of Kane, Son, Winks. I mentioned many of these flaws when he was with us, so what am I rewriting? Players also regressed under him after starting out well, Rose and Dier the main 2. Again he is a good coach done a very good job with us, but as mentioned above like anyone he has his flaws.
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I just think you are looking at his time from where he has left you, not from where you were when he arrived.

If I had told you that you would qualify for the CL consistently every season when he arrived, without fail, and that you would reach the final of the Champions League, you would have been shocked.

He didn’t win anything because he was constantly running into bigger clubs with more money, paying more wages for top players.

Winning a trophy at Spurs is not an expectation, and he shouldn’t be judged on not doing so. In my opinion, he took a club like Spurs as far as they could possibly go and has left them with a far greater European reputation than when he arrived.

A league cup wouldn’t have been a greater achievement than what he has done with them.
 
Maluco said:
I just think you are looking at his time from where he has left you, not from where you were when he arrived.

If I had told you that you would qualify for the CL consistently every season when he arrived, without fail, and that you would reach the final of the Champions League, you would have been shocked.

He didn’t win anything because he was constantly running into bigger clubs with more money, paying more wages for top players.

Winning a trophy at Spurs is not an expectation, and he shouldn’t be judged on not doing so. In my opinion, he took a club like Spurs as far as they could possibly go and has left them with a far greater European reputation than when he arrived.

A league cup wouldn’t have been a greater achievement than what he has done with them.
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There is no reason why he couldn't finish top four and got a cup, but as stated publicly he didn't really care about domestic cups.

Running into other teams with bigger names? We had a good squad and a top world goal scorer. Again I do think he done a good job I have said that time and time again, but he had his flaws. I stated this when he was our manager.
 
InLevyITrust said:
There is no reason why he couldn't finish top four and got a cup, but as stated publicly he didn't really care about domestic cups.

Running into other teams with bigger names? We had a good squad and a top world goal scorer. Again I do think he done a good job I have said that time and time again, but he had his flaws. I stated this when he was our manager.
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Was an issue I had with him also

However he did have a point, winning an FA cup wasn't going to move Spurs closer to elite status, winning the league or UCL would have though. One game away he was from achieving it
 
Cassidy said:
Was an issue I had with him also

However he did have a point, winning an FA cup wasn't going to move Spurs closer to elite status, winning the league or UCL would have though. One game away he was from achieving it
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I can see why he prioritised the league totally but when he got to the finial of the league cup or the semis of the FA cup it should have been taken seriously but each time for what ever reason we blew it.
 
InLevyITrust said:
I can see why he prioritised the league totally but when he got to the finial of the league cup or the semis of the FA cup it should have been taken seriously but each time for what ever reason we blew it.
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Agree with that
 
romufc said:
This. Lots of people judging on not winning a trophy is pointless.

I know Klopp won the title in Germany but at Liverpool he was labelled a Final failure because he lost a few finals, but look at the Liverpool team now.

People under rate how well he done with that Spurs team as well.

Calls for Tuchel, Allegri because they have won titles but most managers win the league at Juve or PSG.
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And you are underrating Allegri and Tuchel by ignoring their work prior to their last stint .
 
InLevyITrust said:
There is no reason why he couldn't finish top four and got a cup, but as stated publicly he didn't really care about domestic cups.
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That really doesn't sit well with me at all, it's just not a winner's mentality.
Fergie or Mourinho would never shrug their shoulders at a chance to win something, they would throw everything at it, and get it in the trophy cabinet, which is why their CVs are laden with a ridiculous number of honours.
 
InLevyITrust said:
There is no reason why he couldn't finish top four and got a cup, but as stated publicly he didn't really care about domestic cups.

Running into other teams with bigger names? We had a good squad and a top world goal scorer. Again I do think he done a good job I have said that time and time again, but he had his flaws. I stated this when he was our manager.
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I hear you mate and appreciate you being so calm in your responses. It makes for a far better debate!

I just think his achievements have been sold short and don’t rate the squad that he had as highly as you do. You can’t just keep beating better, more expensively assembled teams. He often didn’t have anyone on the bench to even come on and change a game.

He beat City at their peak in the CL, but then was asked to play yet another game against yet another team that had spent far more money than he had.

I don’t think it was a disgrace that it was always just a bridge too far.

But I think the point of contention is how highly you rate the Spurs squad at the time. We will have to agree to disagree there mate, but it’s interesting to hear things from a Spurs fans point of view.
 
gajender said:
And you are underrating Allegri and Tuchel by ignoring their work prior to their last stint .
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Allegri won the Serie A for Juve for 4 consecutive years, before that he won the Italian league with Milan. He is similar to Anchelotti where his tactics are outdated.

Tuchel hasn't really achieved much prior to PSG either.
 
romufc said:
Allegri won the Serie A for Juve for 4 consecutive years, before that he won the Italian league with Milan. He is similar to Anchelotti where his tactics are outdated.

Tuchel hasn't really achieved much prior to PSG either.
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2 UCL finals in 3 years with outdated tactics.... sure ok
 
Cassidy said:
2 UCL finals in 3 years with outdated tactics.... sure ok
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So when Poch got to the final he was branded as lucky.

P.S He had a squad to win the champions league, Juve were amongst the favourites to win it.
 
Cassidy said:
The squad you posted isn't a very good one, infact its quite a poor one for trying to come top3 something Poch achieved 3 times
Are you going to ignore the job he did at Southampton too.. or
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I disagree it was a poor squad. Adebayor netted 11 times in the prem, so hardly disinterested. Though they did lack quality upfront. That season Paulinho was a very good player, Dawson had a great season by his standards. It was squad with good foundations to build on. Not a squad that needed a shake up, there was no revolutionary brand of football he instilled in them.

He did likewise at Southhampton:

Clyne
Yoshida
Lovren
Fonte
Lambert
Jay rodriguez
Wanyama
Chambers
Shaw
Lallana

They'd already developed a good squad for their level and he benefited from good leadership at the top. He's not getting any of that here.

I'm not saying he's a bad manager, but I have doubts if he's what we need at this current stage.
 
romufc said:
Allegri won the Serie A for Juve for 4 consecutive years, before that he won the Italian league with Milan. He is similar to Anchelotti where his tactics are outdated.

Tuchel hasn't really achieved much prior to PSG either.
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Agree with this, Allegri is being overrated, he won the titles with Juve when Juve had as much difficulty in Serie A as Celtic in the Scottish league.

Would be another Jose but without "fun" interviews.

Poch over Allegri any day.
 
evil_geko said:
Agree with this, Allegri is being overrated, he won the titles with Juve when Juve had as much difficulty in Serie A as Celtic in the Scottish league.

Would be another Jose but without "fun" interviews.

Poch over Allegri any day.
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We keep falling for the same mistakes. We went from total football pass master LVG to Pragmatic Jose.

Then we decided to get back to the so called "Fergie" way of counter attacking football with high press and quick passing (well at least that is what Ole said he is trying to do)

Now we want to go back to defensive Allegri? We are literally going to shoot ourselves in the foot again.
 
Maluco said:
I hear you mate and appreciate you being so calm in your responses. It makes for a far better debate!

I just think his achievements have been sold short and don’t rate the squad that he had as highly as you do. You can’t just keep beating better, more expensively assembled teams. He often didn’t have anyone on the bench to even come on and change a game.

He beat City at their peak in the CL, but then was asked to play yet another game against yet another team that had spent far more money than he had.

I don’t think it was a disgrace that it was always just a bridge too far.

But I think the point of contention is how highly you rate the Spurs squad at the time. We will have to agree to disagree there mate, but it’s interesting to hear things from a Spurs fans point of view.
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Im always calm unless I feel like im being trolled :lol:.

I think the squad of 15-16 and 16-17 was good enough to have done better than they did to be honest especially in the domestic cups. Again I have the upmost respect for Poch and is probably my favourite manager of modern times, very close with Martin Jol (Who levy well and truly shafted).
 
Ikon said:
That really doesn't sit well with me at all, it's just not a winner's mentality.
Fergie or Mourinho would never shrug their shoulders at a chance to win something, they would throw everything at it, and get it in the trophy cabinet, which is why their CVs are laden with a ridiculous number of honours.
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Both of them routinely fielded weakened teams in the League Cup so let's not do a revisionist history here.
 
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