A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino

romufc said:
We have VAR, so it is not the ref making mistakes?

Name one successful club that has not got luck on route to winning something or getting into final?

So if we are not going to win the Champions league, we might as well not bother getting into top 4? and if we dont care about top 4? why should our league position matter? If we dont finish 1st what difference finishing 5th and 17th?

All teams come to an end.

Rodgers went from 2nd when they lost the league to mid table. Does that mean he is a crap manager?
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You know as well as I that VAR is not that willing to change referees decisions. And if referee (and his linesmen/lineswomen) fails to spot handball he is making a misstake. It is ok to make misstake. We are humans. But still it is misstake and a goal that gave Tottenham chance to go trough.

There is a big difference between Premier Legaue and Champions League. Everyone with some luck can go far in Chmpions League. I don't know how you can't see the difference with coming 2nd in Premier League and 2nd in Champions League. And clubs cares coming 4th. Tha answer is big, big money.

Rodgers is not a crap manager. I have never said that Pochettino is crap manager either. He is good manager. But he is overrated by far and by many.
 
romufc said:
Established clubs struggling, so we should not give credit to someone?
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Personally, I like Poch. However, people are pointing towards his league positions and getting into the top 4 as his achievements. Would that have happened if not for Chelsea, United, and Arsenal falling away and generally struggling during those years? Debatable.
 
cyberman said:
No. What im saying is there wasnt intense competition for top 4 over the last few years so its an unfair comparison.
Unless youre saying Redknapps Spurs side would struggle to finish above these versions of Arsenal and Utd?
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On the contrary, it's during the immediately previous Prem era that there wasn't any real competition for top 4 - which is why more or less the same clubs finished in the top 4 year after year.

But since then, with the rise of Man. City and (to a lesser extent) Spurs, not to mention Liverpool and Leicester, the competition for top 4 has intensified, with United, Arsenal and sometimes Chelsea all losing out.
 
GlastonSpur said:
On the contrary, it's during the immediately previous Prem era that there wasn't any real competition for top 4 - which is why more or less the same clubs finished in the top 4 year after year.

But since then, with the rise of Man. City and (to a lesser extent) Spurs, not to mention Liverpool and Leicester, the competition for top 4 has intensified, with United, Arsenal and sometimes Chelsea all losing out.
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Gotta disagree. Its only wide open due to the drop in quality. Last year was a shambles ffs, no team wanted to qualify as Utd, Chelsea and Spurs lost every week.
 
90 + 5min said:
You know as well as I that VAR is not that willing to change referees decisions. And if referee (and his linesmen/lineswomen) fails to spot handball he is making a misstake. It is ok to make misstake. We are humans. But still it is misstake and a goal that gave Tottenham chance to go trough.

There is a big difference between Premier Legaue and Champions League. Everyone with some luck can go far in Chmpions League. I don't know how you can't see the difference with coming 2nd in Premier League and 2nd in Champions League. And clubs cares coming 4th. Tha answer is big, big money.

Rodgers is not a crap manager. I have never said that Pochettino is crap manager either. He is good manager. But he is overrated by far and by many.
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There are two conversations here now.

Spurs being lucky, I agree with Aguero missed penalty too but you need luck.

In respects to Poch, he is a good manager because he gets teams playing well.

I am responding to the thread of looking at Poch, the reason being he has been in the PL knows the league and a good coach. Given a bit of money, hopefully he can win trophies.

I believe if the board decide Ole is not the man, whenever that may be, we have a good coach lined up rather than being reactive.

At the moment Poch and Brendan seem to be better than anyone else out there?
 
Zen86 said:
Personally, I like Poch. However, people are pointing towards his league positions and getting into the top 4 as his achievements. Would that have happened if not for Chelsea, United, and Arsenal falling away and generally struggling during those years? Debatable.
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I do understand what you are saying, Arsenal have struggled for good 8/10 years now. However; lets not forget the emergence of Liverpool and Mancity along with other teams like Wolves etc...
 
romufc said:
Tbh you are a Spurs fan and know more about how the club was run and how you rate him as a manager.

But from the outside

15/16 - 3rd + 34 6 losses
16/17 - 2nd - +60 GD 4 losses
17/18 - 3rd - +38 GD 7 losses
18/19 - 4th

He had the same squad with no signings going into last season and was 2/3rd uptil Jan/Feb and then once they started doing well in the Champions League the league form deteriorated because of lack of squad depth.

Spurs have never been challengers anyway so no one expects spurs to challenge.

But anyway lets see what Jose can do.
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So, the progression you were stating Poch made was to go from 2nd, to 3rd, to 4th. By the way, what were the GD and number of losses from 18/19?
 
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Seems people discredit Poch for the sake of having Ole at the helm which is laughable. The fact that prior to this season spurs had a 30million net spend, Poch has punched over the club's weight by bringing them into contention for the league and UCL titles. The biggest factor that Poch had with spurs that Solskjaer seems to lack profoundly is consistency. I know his record tailed off in the last year of his tenure but clearly there was alot of "movement" behind closed doors which didn't help him or the team perform cohesively.

End of this season there will be Poch, Ten Haag or Tuchel to potentially choose from. It's top four or the door for Ole I can't see why we would have any reason to keep him if he fails this objective especially in correlation to other coaches who are better / available.
 
macheda14 said:
It’s starting to look like the current trend with top level managers is they end with a massive blow out. Jose has done this famously at his last three jobs. Klopp did it at Dortmund. Pep seems to be doing it to some extent at City. Poch did it at Spurs. The level of intensity and tactical rigidity that top managers instill in players seems unsustainable. Therefore to not go for Poch because of his final stint at Spurs seems incredibly daft. Klopp lost 14 and drew 7 out of 34 games in the Bundesliga during his final season. By your metric we shouldn’t have tried to hire Klopp?
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If this had been february 5th 2015 - absolutely not, wouldn't have want to touch him with a pole. But he turned it around, which Poch never did.

He finished the season with 9 wins, 3 Draws and 3 defeats

And started the next season with 4 wins and 2 Draws Before they got hammered by a brilliant Bayern M-side

So Klopp won 13 out of his last 22 games and left Dortmund as a top-side. Which clearly indicates that the players weren't sick and tired of him.

Pochettino couldn't turn it around and his time at Spurs was an 18 month decline, slow at first and then steep at the end. His last 24 League games for Spurs were 6 wins, 6 Draws and 12 defeats.
 
alexthelion said:
So, the progression you were stating Poch made was to go from 2nd, to 3rd, to 4th. By the way, what were the GD and number of losses from 18/19?
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Obviously we all know what happened this season. But that has nothing to do with behind the scenes issues at Spurs right?
Everyone's entitled to their opinion, I was stating that he is a good coach, probably one of the top 10 coaches out there currently.
 
lysglimt said:
If this had been february 5th 2015 - absolutely not, wouldn't have want to touch him with a pole. But he turned it around, which Poch never did.
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lysglimt said:
So Klopp won 13 out of his last 22 games and left Dortmund as a top-side. Which clearly indicates that the players weren't sick and tired of him.
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Putting things into perspective is necessary as well.

The reason why Liverpool are where they are is because they believed in Klopp rather than look at his last 1 year in charge of Dortmund.

Generally, managers who are successful in building teams have a shelf life of 4/5 years. We had one of the best so we have not seen this but that is the reality.

How was he in a decline for 18 months? Spurs were second in the league last January against probably the 2 best sides in Europe.

There were alot of external factors at Spurs that contributed to the results too, players in the final year of their contracts and alot of distractions, just have a look at us at the end of last season, it was the same thing.

So because of his results he shouldn't be backed, do you back Ole then?
 
romufc said:
Spurs were second in the league last January against probably the 2 best sides in Europe.
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Their underlying metrics indicated they were outperforming expectations. Predictably that came crashing down on them as the league went on. It's only because of United and Arsenal's similarly predictable capitulation based on those same metrics they didn't crash out of the top-4.

Now some of that has to fall on Levy for failing to refresh the squad at all, which Poch clearly had been pushing for as far back as summer 2017, but Poch wasn't able to adjust and find a solution. I think he's certainly better than what we saw in his last year plus however long this season, but I'm not totally sold on Poch being an "obvious" answer.

He really only "built" one team, seems extremely stubborn tactically (that can be good and bad), hasn't shown an ability to turn matches with in-game substitutions very often, and his big match record is appalling away from home. I'm not anti-Poch as much as I'm not completely for him.
 
AR87 said:
Their underlying metrics indicated they were outperforming expectations. Predictably that came crashing down on them as the league went on. It's only because of United and Arsenal's similarly predictable capitulation based on those same metrics they didn't crash out of the top-4.

Now some of that has to fall on Levy for failing to refresh the squad at all, which Poch clearly had been pushing for as far back as summer 2017, but Poch wasn't able to adjust and find a solution. I think he's certainly better than what we saw in his last year plus however long this season, but I'm not totally sold on Poch being an "obvious" answer.

He really only "built" one team, seems extremely stubborn tactically (that can be good and bad), hasn't shown an ability to turn matches with in-game substitutions very often, and his big match record is appalling away from home. I'm not anti-Poch as much as I'm not completely for him.
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Fair enough, I agree with you there that he is not the obvious choice.

A year ago he was the obvious choice and having seen how he has gone on about it and as you say he is stubborn where he he insisted on a 4-4-2 diamond this season whilst it didnt work is mind boggling.

As things stand, I would take Brendan over him because he has been to 4/5 clubs and done well, only Reading where he didn't really perform.

But because there is no clear and obvious alternative, Ole is still in charge and the way the season has gone, I would give Ole this season to show what he can do.
 
lysglimt said:
So Klopp won 13 out of his last 22 games and left Dortmund as a top-side. Which clearly indicates that the players weren't sick and tired of him.
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Form improved dramatically and almost instantly after he announced he was leaving Dortmund at the end of the season. That may or may not be indicative of something.
 
romufc said:
I do understand what you are saying, Arsenal have struggled for good 8/10 years now. However; lets not forget the emergence of Liverpool and Mancity along with other teams like Wolves etc...
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True, the makeup of the league has changed over the last 4 or 5 years. He’s a good manager for sure, but he is far from being a sure thing when it comes to success.
 
romufc said:
Putting things into perspective is necessary as well.

The reason why Liverpool are where they are is because they believed in Klopp rather than look at his last 1 year in charge of Dortmund.

Generally, managers who are successful in building teams have a shelf life of 4/5 years. We had one of the best so we have not seen this but that is the reality.

How was he in a decline for 18 months? Spurs were second in the league last January against probably the 2 best sides in Europe.

There were alot of external factors at Spurs that contributed to the results too, players in the final year of their contracts and alot of distractions, just have a look at us at the end of last season, it was the same thing.

So because of his results he shouldn't be backed, do you back Ole then?
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I always get very nervous with a manager who loses the players. A brilliant manager never does. And as I pointed out With Klopp, yes I would be nervous if we had appointed him 6 months before Liverpool did, but he turned it around and when he left - Dortmund were practically back to where they were before their slump.
 
passing-wind said:
Seems people discredit Poch for the sake of having Ole at the helm which is laughable. The fact that prior to this season spurs had a 30million net spend, Poch has punched over the club's weight by bringing them into contention for the league and UCL titles. The biggest factor that Poch had with spurs that Solskjaer seems to lack profoundly is consistency. I know his record tailed off in the last year of his tenure but clearly there was alot of "movement" behind closed doors which didn't help him or the team perform cohesively.

End of this season there will be Poch, Ten Haag or Tuchel to potentially choose from. It's top four or the door for Ole I can't see why we would have any reason to keep him if he fails this objective especially in correlation to other coaches who are better / available.
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You hope.

Have you not seen any improvement by United this season? No reason for, at the least, a little credit for Ole?
 
romufc said:
Obviously we all know what happened this season. But that has nothing to do with behind the scenes issues at Spurs right?
Everyone's entitled to their opinion, I was stating that he is a good coach, probably one of the top 10 coaches out there currently.
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Why is he a top coach, though?

Every season for the last three his team has achieved less points than the season before. That is not progression in any way, in fact, it's the complete opposite.
 
alexthelion said:
Why is he a top coach, though?

Every season for the last three his team has achieved less points than the season before. That is not progression in any way, in fact, it's the complete opposite.
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Prior to his arrival Spurs were not a regular top 4 team. After his arrival we became a regular top 4 team, competing in the CL and, indeed, reaching the final.

And we did all this whilst spending a pittance in net terms compared to all of our rivals - and spending far less on wages - because of the need to fund the new stadium and new training centre.

This is why Pochettino is a top coach. No amount of revisionist history changes this.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Prior to his arrival Spurs were not a regular top 4 team. After his arrival we became a regular top 4 team, competing in the CL and, indeed, reaching the final.

And we did all this whilst spending a pittance in net terms compared to all of our rivals - and spending far less on wages - because of the need to fund the new stadium and new training centre.

This is why Pochettino is a top coach. No amount of revisionist history changes this.
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Got to agree with you here. It seems it’s impossible to enjoy our potential progress without downplaying someone else. What Poch achieved speaks for itself.
 
AR87 said:
Their underlying metrics indicated they were outperforming expectations. Predictably that came crashing down on them as the league went on. It's only because of United and Arsenal's similarly predictable capitulation based on those same metrics they didn't crash out of the top-4.

Now some of that has to fall on Levy for failing to refresh the squad at all, which Poch clearly had been pushing for as far back as summer 2017, but Poch wasn't able to adjust and find a solution. I think he's certainly better than what we saw in his last year plus however long this season, but I'm not totally sold on Poch being an "obvious" answer.

He really only "built" one team, seems extremely stubborn tactically (that can be good and bad), hasn't shown an ability to turn matches with in-game substitutions very often, and his big match record is appalling away from home. I'm not anti-Poch as much as I'm not completely for him.
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The stats don't lie in that the team under Poch this year was just bad and inconsistent but how do you adjust to motivating the same core of 11-15 players season after season (with injuries to key players) without fresh faces coming in and having such a small squad to begin with? All that whilst trying to achieve parity to your previous league standings/competitiveness (because the expectations are always that you build/improve) and battle against not just the top 4 but clubs like Everton, Wolves, West Ham etc, who have consistently spent more/have a turnover of players/managers?

It's basically an impossible job that he predicted and vented out many times with the 'I'm just a coach' business because there is no manager in the world, who would be able to 'succeed' and re-adjust when the standard was set so high before.

Utd have a 'poor' squad that has been mismanaged and unevenly recruited but the depth of international players at our disposal/turnover is an embarrassment of riches compared to what Spurs have had. Poch is a risk as much as anyone else but I would have no doubt he would be find this team and club's potential fit his coaching really well. We have almost two players for every position with varying degrees of ability, skillset and experienced.

I hope OGS can be the one but it would be insane not to be sounding out the situation for Poch behind the scenes.
 
alexthelion said:
Why is he a top coach, though?

Every season for the last three his team has achieved less points than the season before. That is not progression in any way, in fact, it's the complete opposite.
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Well on that logic, Pep isnt a good coach? He went from 100 to 98 and might be even lower this time around.

I am not sure you would agree but it does take a good coach to finish top 4 nowadays, and even to get into CL finals.
 
lysglimt said:
I always get very nervous with a manager who loses the players. A brilliant manager never does. And as I pointed out With Klopp, yes I would be nervous if we had appointed him 6 months before Liverpool did, but he turned it around and when he left - Dortmund were practically back to where they were before their slump.
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I agree but the point I am trying to make also is that you can blame a coach however; we cannot argue the behind the scenes as well.

4/5 players in the final year of contracts, wanting to leave and that affects a team.
 
romufc said:
Well on that logic, Pep isnt a good coach? He went from 100 to 98 and might be even lower this time around.

I am not sure you would agree but it does take a good coach to finish top 4 nowadays, and even to get into CL finals.
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Not saying Poch is a bad coach but, he is severely overrated on here. He was just lucky that his main competitiors have all regressed in the last few seasons making his achievement seem better than it really is.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Prior to his arrival Spurs were not a regular top 4 team. After his arrival we became a regular top 4 team, competing in the CL and, indeed, reaching the final.

And we did all this whilst spending a pittance in net terms compared to all of our rivals - and spending far less on wages - because of the need to fund the new stadium and new training centre.

This is why Pochettino is a top coach. No amount of revisionist history changes this.
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I thought the day would never come, but you are 100% correct my man. Poch has done an amazing job at Spurs.
 
What are we waiting for? If we have serious ambitions, just get him already and stop messing about.
 
Pochettino had a great team at Spurs but couldn't get them playing well. You're team is nowhere near the same quality and I dont think he'd be able to get them playing any better than they are right now.
De Gea looks a shadow of the keeper he was. He used to be the best in the world but mistakes are coming too frequently now and his inconsistencies are causing Utd problems. He makes great saves still but for some reason, he's not doing the basics.
I'm not sure that Poch is the man to fix the problems running throughout Utd right now. It has to start with Woodward moving on and getting the structure above the playing staff right
 
It's very hard to justify keeping Solksjaer when a manager of Pochettino's calibre is available. I admire what he's trying to do with his squad overhaul. But that can be done by a different manager who is also a batter tactician and coach.
 
I like Ole and think he's done a lot of necessary stuff but his top level is not competing for and winning titles.
 
Bubz27 said:
What? Just this year or in his whole time there?
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This calendar year was dreadful. Dont get me wrong, some of the football Spurs played early on in his tenure was good but surely a team that is good enough to get to a Champions League final should have been doing much better in the league. The football that Spurs played in 2019 under him was awful and the results matched.
 
Speedy30 said:
Pochettino had a great team at Spurs but couldn't get them playing well. You're team is nowhere near the same quality and I dont think he'd be able to get them playing any better than they are right now.
De Gea looks a shadow of the keeper he was. He used to be the best in the world but mistakes are coming too frequently now and his inconsistencies are causing Utd problems. He makes great saves still but for some reason, he's not doing the basics.
I'm not sure that Poch is the man to fix the problems running throughout Utd right now. It has to start with Woodward moving on and getting the structure above the playing staff right
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Pochettino built that great Spurs side, but in the end things got stale and the squad were no longer responding to his methods. There's some really good analysis on what happened at Spurs. Levy is just as much to blame for what happened at the end. Pochettino wanted to overhaul the squad in 2017 but was denied the opportunity. And by the time he was allowed spend real money it was too late.
 
Speedy30 said:
This calendar year was dreadful. Dont get me wrong, some of the football Spurs played early on in his tenure was good but surely a team that is good enough to get to a Champions League final should have been doing much better in the league. The football that Spurs played in 2019 under him was awful and the results matched.
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The champions League run somehow is used as a stick to beat Poch with. You'd know as a Pool fan in 2005. Cup runs don't always transcend to league runs

Yeah 2019 was poor. Just like Klopp's last year at Dortmund was shite as well. Could be plenty of factors for that.
 
Woodenlung said:
Pochettino built that great Spurs side, but in the end things got stale and the squad were no longer responding to his methods. There's some really good analysis on what happened at Spurs. Levy is just as much to blame for what happened at the end. Pochettino wanted to overhaul the squad in 2017 but was denied the opportunity. And by the time he was allowed spend real money it was too late.
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Spurs have Levy, you have Woodward and the Glazers. Would Poch be better off under them than he was under Levy?
 
Bubz27 said:
The champions League run somehow is used as a stick to beat Poch with. You'd know as a Pool fan in 2005. Cup runs don't always transcend to league runs

Yeah 2019 was poor. Just like Klopp's last year at Dortmund was shite as well. Could be plenty of factors for that.
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The first half of Klopps final season was dreadful but he recovered and was able to get his team back into the European places. Klopp also had a couple of league titles to prove his talent though.
I know that Champions League runs don't always match up with domestic football but you can't ignore Poch's awful record in the Premier League across the whole of 2019 even after additions were made in the summer.
He may be great for you and if so, I'll hold my hands up and say I was wrong but dont forget there were plenty on here that laughed at Spurs for bottling everything when he was in charge
 
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