A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino

InLevyITrust said:
We do but that again is a subjective statement, are we as good as City? Also with Chelsea, United and now Liverpool ther eyou have 4 clubs competing for 3 competitions. If the best squad always won, football wouldn't be why we watch the game. In Europe we have a number of teams with a better team and more importantly more experience.
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You dont need to be as good as City. If he doesn't win anything he is falling short.
 
haram said:
You dont need to be as good as City. If he doesn't win anything he is falling short.
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I don't agree but opinions are like arseholes, and no I'm not calling arsehole. The way I see it if Poch has us in a much better position currently than when he arrived he is being a success.
 
haram said:
Mourinho would have won something with this Spurs team. I mean you could still win the FA Cup so lets see.
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Would he have developed Tottenham this level where you expect them to win trophies?

That's an important factor to take into account.
 
InLevyITrust said:
I don't agree but opinions are like arseholes, and no I'm not calling arsehole. The way I see it if Poch has us in a much better position currently than when he arrived he is being a success.
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Yes, he is a success. To be good enough for us he has to win trophies though. This is not about if he is a good coach or not. I have already said he is a good coach. When people have convinced themselves he is better than Mourinho... that’s where I disagree.

Boycott said:
Would he have developed Tottenham this level where you expect them to win trophies?

That's an important factor to take into account.
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Perhaps not. I already went over that though.
 
Boycott said:
Would he have developed Tottenham this level where you expect them to win trophies?

That's an important factor to take into account.
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Nail on head, football isn't as black and white as most fans make out. If it was it wouldn't be the most popular sport on earth. You need to look at a much bigger picture than just trophies, I think this is difficult for some United fans to do simply because of the success and size of the club you are.
 
haram said:
Yes, he is a success. To be good enough for us he has to win trophies though. This is not about if he is a good coach or not. I have already said he is a good coach. When people have convinced themselves he is better than Mourinho... that’s where I disagree.



Perhaps not. I already went over that though.
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We are agreeing here biglad. I'd Poch took over at United I think it would take him a while to get the club in a position where he was comfortable. He isn't a quick fix manager and he needs to be supported and trusted, I don't think he would go out and buy the players most United fans think he would.
 
haram said:
Yes, he is a success. To be good enough for us he has to win trophies though. This is not about if he is a good coach or not. I have already said he is a good coach. When people have convinced themselves he is better than Mourinho... that’s where I disagree.



Perhaps not. I already went over that though.
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Well that's why I think judging on trophy merit only which some people on here do is a fallacy. The hardest and most impressive side of management in my opinion is building a team up and having an evolution where the club jumps through the gears. Pochettino has done so with Spurs where now the stick to beat him is he hasn't won a trophy as if a League Cup would immediately - but only - validate all that was done before. I can name others over the years who didn't quite go the same path but took teams from lower divisions and within a decade had them playing in Europe. For me that's a damn sight more impressive than someone who wins six knockout games to win a cup but retreat to mediocrity again.
 
Boycott said:
Well that's why I think judging on trophy merit only which some people on here do is a fallacy. The hardest and most impressive side of management in my opinion is building a team up and having an evolution where the club jumps through the gears. Pochettino has done so with Spurs where now the stick to beat him is he hasn't won a trophy as if a League Cup would immediately - but only - validate all that was done before. I can name others over the years who didn't quite go the same path but took teams from lower divisions and within a decade had them playing in Europe. For me that's a damn sight more impressive than someone who wins six knockout games to win a cup but retreat to mediocrity again.
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It’s not just about the league cup though is it. Jose has won big trophies in his career. Poch now has a team that can win something. Why hasn’t he? If he comes to United and wins nothing people would call him a failure. Like I said, the two first elevens are pretty similar in quality.

If Poch comes here and draws away to Rochdale and Newport people will be asking questions. No excuse would be good enough.
 
haram said:
It’s not just about the league cup though is it. Jose has won big trophies in his career. Poch now has a team that can win something. Why hasn’t he? If he comes to United and wins nothing people would call him a failure. Like I said, the two first elevens are pretty similar in quality.

If Poch comes here and draws away to Rochdale and Newport people will be asking questions. No excuse would be good enough.
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Nice jump from present to past there ....
 
haram said:
It’s not just about the league cup though is it. Jose has won big trophies in his career. Poch now has a team that can win something. Why hasn’t he? If he comes to United and wins nothing people would call him a failure. Like I said, the two first elevens are pretty similar in quality.

If Poch comes here and draws away to Rochdale and Newport people will be asking questions. No excuse would be good enough.
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Why don't you wait to the end of the season? He hasn't won a trophy yet but when has he been the favorite to win. He hasn't had the best squad, the biggest squad, the costliest squad. What he did have was a quality team he cultivated but you can't win trophies without depth.

The players who are now good enough to win something weren't players people were clamoring for not so long ago. And maybe not now. One of the main talking points is Utd need fresh full backs on here. How many will take Davies and Trippier?

There are at least four richer clubs with better depth and who are able to stockpile first team players. That makes it very hard to win the Prem but he led them to 86 points which was the second highest runner up tally. Close but not close enough ultimately. The League Cup - he got to a final in 2015. An FA Cup S/F last year and possibly another now. It's not like he's never come close.

I think his attitude to cups in the past was poor when he'd throw an U21 team out even though he would initially get away with it. But this year he's played more stronger teams from the off. So maybe he has learned and we need to wait and see. I think when you outplay Juventus on their own turf a lapse at Rochdale while annoying, can get forgiven.

Moreover for his club they need Top 4 to a) keep their best players b) attract better players c) stay relevant. United fans and big club fans take that for granted whereby top four is a figure of fun but for lower status clubs historically and financially they can't just throw it away and put all eggs in one basket on a single competition. Unless of course you're having a stinker of a season and all that is left to salvage is pride.

That's why you can't treat comparisons as black and white. There are lots of different factors. And lastly, this is a Utd forum so people will be harder on the incumbent Utd manager. Check the other sites to see how they respond to their club's setbacks and the general state of play.
 
Boycott said:
Why don't you wait to the end of the season? He hasn't won a trophy yet but when has he been the favorite to win. He hasn't had the best squad, the biggest squad, the costliest squad. What he did have was a quality team he cultivated but you can't win trophies without depth.

The players who are now good enough to win something weren't players people were clamoring for not so long ago. And maybe not now. One of the main talking points is Utd need fresh full backs on here. How many will take Davies and Trippier?

There are at least four richer clubs with better depth and who are able to stockpile first team players. That makes it very hard to win the Prem but he led them to 86 points which was the second highest runner up tally. Close but not close enough ultimately. The League Cup - he got to a final in 2015. An FA Cup S/F last year and possibly another now. It's not like he's never come close.

I think his attitude to cups in the past was poor when he'd throw an U21 team out even though he would initially get away with it. But this year he's played more stronger teams from the off. So maybe he has learned and we need to wait and see. I think when you outplay Juventus on their own turf a lapse at Rochdale while annoying, can get forgiven.

Moreover for his club they need Top 4 to a) keep their best players b) attract better players c) stay relevant. United fans and big club fans take that for granted whereby top four is a figure of fun but for lower status clubs historically and financially they can't just throw it away and put all eggs in one basket on a single competition. Unless of course you're having a stinker of a season and all that is left to salvage is pride.

That's why you can't treat comparisons as black and white. There are lots of different factors. And lastly, this is a Utd forum so people will be harder on the incumbent Utd manager. Check the other sites to see how they respond to their club's setbacks and the general state of play.
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Like I said, and it comes down to this, Jose would have won a trophy already with this Spurs team. If we are talking about United, that is what really matters. So those clamouring over Poch, if he was to come here and win nothing, what would the response be?

It’s pretty simple. I can accept that he has done a good job but he hasn’t won anything so he cannot be above Jose.
 
haram said:
Like I said, and it comes down to this, Jose would have won a trophy already with this Spurs team. If we are talking about United, that is what really matters. So those clamouring over Poch, if he was to come here and win nothing, what would the response be?

It’s pretty simple. I can accept that he has done a good job but he hasn’t won anything so he cannot be above Jose.
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I've not tried ranking one above the other. Praising Pochettino on a Utd forum is not by extension belittling Mourinho.

They're doing different jobs with different methods and remits. My belief is that Mourinho or anyone else would not have taken this Spurs team to the level they are the way Pochettino has. If you're saying Mourinho could take the Tottenham job tomorrow and win a trophy that's a different story. Perhaps the same logic goes to those who say Pochettino can take the Utd job tomorrow and do well because if he can build Tottenham to a club expected to win trophies in spite of their resources, with the resources of Utd he can win trophies in a way more in tune to what people want to see. It's all hypothetical nonsense for the most part but people have their preferences of what they like in a manager or a team and are free to express them.
 
A real Fergie trait was spotting a bargain - Heung-min Son 22m, Dele Alli 7m, Victor Wanyama 11m, Toby Alderweireld 11.5m, Trippier 3.5m, Ben Davies 3.5m, Eric Dier 4m

Another great Fergie trait was making players multiple times better than they were before he got them - Harry Kane, Danny Rose, Christian Eriksen, Mousa Dembele, Eric Dier, Ben Davies, Vertonghen

Giving youth a chance - Winks, Kane, Alli, Eric Dier, Oakley-Booth, Foyth, Ben Davies

Then playing attractive football was also of course a great Fergie trait. He's the closest thing to Fergie in Europe today. PSG and Real Madrid will fight over his services in the summer and with difficulty holding onto Kane and Alli in the summer he might just jump ship and he will very easily win trophies at either of those two places.
 
Boycott said:
I've not tried ranking one above the other. Praising Pochettino on a Utd forum is not by extension belittling Mourinho.

They're doing different jobs with different methods and remits. My belief is that Mourinho or anyone else would not have taken this Spurs team to the level they are the way Pochettino has. If you're saying Mourinho could take the Tottenham job tomorrow and win a trophy that's a different story. Perhaps the same logic goes to those who say Pochettino can take the Utd job tomorrow and do well because if he can build Tottenham to a club expected to win trophies in spite of their resources, with the resources of Utd he can win trophies in a way more in tune to what people want to see. It's all hypothetical nonsense for the most part but people have their preferences of what they like in a manager or a team and are free to express them.
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Well I am talking about people who want Pochettino instead of Mourinho at Manchester United.
 
Champagne Football said:
A real Fergie trait was spotting a bargain - Heung-min Son 22m, Dele Alli 7m, Victor Wanyama 11m, Toby Alderweireld 11.5m, Trippier 3.5m, Ben Davies 3.5m, Eric Dier 4m

Another great Fergie trait was making players multiple times better than they were before he got them - Harry Kane, Danny Rose, Christian Eriksen, Mousa Dembele, Eric Dier, Ben Davies, Vertonghen

Giving youth a chance - Winks, Kane, Alli, Eric Dier, Oakley-Booth, Foyth, Ben Davies

Then playing attractive football was also of course a great Fergie trait. He's the closest thing to Fergie in Europe today. PSG and Real Madrid will fight over his services in the summer and with difficulty holding onto Kane and Alli in the summer he might just jump ship and he will very easily win trophies at either of those two places.
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And the final final step into being "Fergie Mark II" would be to start winning trophies -- which IMO was the real "great Fergie trait", the ability to win something even without the best team.
 
haram said:
Like I said, and it comes down to this, Jose would have won a trophy already with this Spurs team. If we are talking about United, that is what really matters. So those clamouring over Poch, if he was to come here and win nothing, what would the response be?

It’s pretty simple. I can accept that he has done a good job but he hasn’t won anything so he cannot be above Jose.
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This Spurs team havent been "This" for too long. You're judging him as if he's had this quality for seasons now and has failed to deliver.
 
He really is an incredible coach. When he first arrived, Danny Rose and Walker weren't highly rated at all and especially Walker as bit of a joke fullback. He transformed both into 50m plus fullbacks. If/When Mourinho goes, I think we should look at him to be our next manager. I don't know if he comes here or not or if he'll be available when/if Mourinho leaves or sacked but I think all of PL clubs, we stand the biggest chances of landing him as our manager.

Having said that, he does need to win something within the next two years or Harry Kane will leave. Spurs fans can think whatever they want, but Kane wouldn't stick around if he doesn't win anything(a fact that he himself recently admitted in an interview).
 
I still maintain the biggest factor in his 'success' is Harry Kane coming through. He does have them playing very well at times but like Rodgers and Suarez, such players elevate teams all by themselves
 
beycont said:
And the final final step into being "Fergie Mark II" would be to start winning trophies -- which IMO was the real "great Fergie trait", the ability to win something even without the best team.
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There are clubs out there like PSG or Bayern where any clown can rack up a trophy haul. He was guaranted to win trophies this season if swapped Spurs for PSG last summer but the sign of a great manager is one who'll say no to a much bigger club where he can win trophies in his sleep in order to stay and finish a building job at a club with very limited spending power. I think it's outrageous that you think a club like Spurs should be winning trophies in England when you consider the spending power of City, Utd and Chelsea and to a lesser extent Liverpool and Arsenal. Long gone are the days clubs like Spurs, West Ham and Everton can expect to win FA cups every couple of years.
 
Champagne Football said:
A real Fergie trait was spotting a bargain - Heung-min Son 22m, Dele Alli 7m, Victor Wanyama 11m, Toby Alderweireld 11.5m, Trippier 3.5m, Ben Davies 3.5m, Eric Dier 4m

Another great Fergie trait was making players multiple times better than they were before he got them - Harry Kane, Danny Rose, Christian Eriksen, Mousa Dembele, Eric Dier, Ben Davies, Vertonghen

Giving youth a chance - Winks, Kane, Alli, Eric Dier, Oakley-Booth, Foyth, Ben Davies

Then playing attractive football was also of course a great Fergie trait. He's the closest thing to Fergie in Europe today. PSG and Real Madrid will fight over his services in the summer and with difficulty holding onto Kane and Alli in the summer he might just jump ship and he will very easily win trophies at either of those two places.
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There will be no difficulties in holding onto any player that Pochettino wants to keep this summer. Levy has publicly said that no player will be sold that Pochettino isn't OK with selling.
 
Second best coach in the country imo.
I judge that on being able to get the maximum out of his players.
 
Since it looks like we aren't parting with Mourinho, I'd like to see how he does at a huge club. It would be interesting to see how he does in Made with very established players.
If he can get the likes of Ronaldo,Bale, Benzema, Kroos and co to play his very aggressive brand of football.
Ronaldo, Bale don't look like they'll be interested in running/pressing the opponent without the ball.
Would like to see how he does with that.
His past solution has been to banish the player, he can't do that at Madrid.
 
Adisa said:
Since it looks like we aren't parting with Mourinho, I'd like to see how he does at a huge club. It would be interesting to see how he does in Made with very established players.
If he can get the likes of Ronaldo,Bale, Benzema, Kroos and co to play his very aggressive brand of football.
Ronaldo, Bale don't look like they'll be interested in running/pressing the opponent without the ball.
Would like to see how he does with that.
His past solution has been to banish the player, he can't do that at Madrid.
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Can't lie. The idea of playing that kind of football with the attackers we have sounds very appealing. Wonder what Spurs would look like when they lose Kane and Poch
 
Poch is a top coach. After Jose leaves I would have him here but I can't see that happening. Motes failure forced Woodward and Co. to think short term and try win trophies. We could have gone for poch back in 2014 but it was a huge risk then and one we could not afford to take. Will poch be ready to manage us now is a different question.
 
Adisa said:
Since it looks like we aren't parting with Mourinho, I'd like to see how he does at a huge club. It would be interesting to see how he does in Made with very established players.
If he can get the likes of Ronaldo,Bale, Benzema, Kroos and co to play his very aggressive brand of football.
Ronaldo, Bale don't look like they'll be interested in running/pressing the opponent without the ball.
Would like to see how he does with that.
His past solution has been to banish the player, he can't do that at Madrid.
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This is why I cant see him at Real. There is more chance of him at PSG IMO.
 
Jose won us two trophies last season. He knows how to win. Poch is a great coach and is doing well with Spurs....but he still needs to learn how to win. That final push separates the 'greats' from the 'pretty goods' !
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
It isnt. Go look at what he did with FC Porto.
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Sensational achievement to win the CL with Porto (though didn't exactly really play heavyweights in their route) .

Not exactly like Porto are minnows either. They are the 2nd most successful club in Portugal.

The obsession with trophies on here is almost cult like. And I don't mean that trophies aren't supremely important because they are. But there is almost no appreciation of context. It's just trophies? No. Crap

Let me make it clear. Ramos won us a trophy. He also won trophies at Seville. I would have Poch over him all the time. AVB seemingly did an incredible job at Porto. Won the treble. Unbeaten domestically I believe. Failed at Chelsea and then at spurs. I'd have Poch over him.

I think the job Howe has done is genuinely incredible. I think he's done a better job in the past five seasons than Wenger has. How many trophies has he won ? None. Yet the body of work he's done is truly sensational imo considering the resources.

I'd have him over Martinez and Di Matteo ,despite them being fa cup and cl winners.

The internet really is a place for such black and white opinions.
 
GlastonSpur said:
There will be no difficulties in holding onto any player that Pochettino wants to keep this summer. Levy has publicly said that no player will be sold that Pochettino isn't OK with selling.
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Well I don't think Alli has done enough this season to force Real or City to make a bid. All the major clubs seem pretty well stocked with strikers too so can't see Real, City or PSG wanting Kane in the summer too.
 
africanspur said:
Sensational achievement to win the CL with Porto (though didn't exactly really play heavyweights in their route) .

Not exactly like Porto are minnows either. They are the 2nd most successful club in Portugal.

The obsession with trophies on here is almost cult like. And I don't mean that trophies aren't supremely important because they are. But there is almost no appreciation of context. It's just trophies? No. Crap

Let me make it clear. Ramos won us a trophy. He also won trophies at Seville. I would have Poch over him all the time. AVB seemingly did an incredible job at Porto. Won the treble. Unbeaten domestically I believe. Failed at Chelsea and then at spurs. I'd have Poch over him.

I think the job Howe has done is genuinely incredible. I think he's done a better job in the past five seasons than Wenger has. How many trophies has he won ? None. Yet the body of work he's done is truly sensational imo considering the resources.

I'd have him over Martinez and Di Matteo ,despite them being fa cup and cl winners.

The internet really is a place for such black and white opinions.
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Good point.

Always crucial to consider the context.

I think Poch is a superb manager, he has done wonders with spurs. The real question is whether or not he would be able to replicate these results at a higher level, at a different club with different expectations.

He has spurs playing good fluid attacking football, I like his style from a tactical standpoint. Also he has done well in the transfer market, although how much credit he can take for their transfer policy is debatable.

I've been really impressed with how he nurtures talent, some of their players have progressed significantly.

Still think any top club considering Poch is taking a gamble as he is not proven at the top level. However how he has handled himself at Spurs is impressive, and indicates he will be capable of taking over a team with higher expectations. However whether or not that will come to fruition, we will only know once he takes the next step.
 
Xcited said:
Good point.

Always crucial to consider the context.

I think Poch is a superb manager, he has done wonders with spurs. The real question is whether or not he would be able to replicate these results at a higher level, at a different club with different expectations.

He has spurs playing good fluid attacking football, I like his style from a tactical standpoint. Also he has done well in the transfer market, although how much credit he can take for their transfer policy is debatable.

I've been really impressed with how he nurtures talent, some of their players have progressed significantly.

Still think any top club considering Poch is taking a gamble as he is not proven at the top level. However how he has handled himself at Spurs is impressive, and indicates he will be capable of taking over a team with higher expectations. However whether or not that will come to fruition, we will only know once he takes the next step.
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I agree completely with this and have said in the past that j don't think abilities of managers is necessarily always applicable to all clubs. I feel like Mourinho for example can take over many different clubs and be successful. Especially clubs with money and good players.

On the other hand, does the fact that Zidane won the cl back to back and a league in the past 2 seasons suddenly make him an incredible, unique manager ? It makes his achievements in the modern game unique. But I'm honestly not sure that he could have done the job that Poch has done at a spurs. I'm Not sure that he could have done the job that Howe has done either. Similarly, I think Poch, as much as I love him, would currently be eaten alive at Real.

With all due respect to some of these clubs, I'm sure if Poch moved go the likes of Porto or PSG, he'd win a good amount. Doesn't suddenly make him a much better manager. Context is vital.

It obviously goes without saying that I hope Poch stays and forms a Ferguson/Wenger style legacy at Spurs ,even if there are a few less trophies overall.
 
africanspur said:
Sensational achievement to win the CL with Porto (though didn't exactly really play heavyweights in their route) .

Not exactly like Porto are minnows either. They are the 2nd most successful club in Portugal.

The obsession with trophies on here is almost cult like. And I don't mean that trophies aren't supremely important because they are. But there is almost no appreciation of context. It's just trophies? No. Crap

Let me make it clear. Ramos won us a trophy. He also won trophies at Seville. I would have Poch over him all the time. AVB seemingly did an incredible job at Porto. Won the treble. Unbeaten domestically I believe. Failed at Chelsea and then at spurs. I'd have Poch over him.

I think the job Howe has done is genuinely incredible. I think he's done a better job in the past five seasons than Wenger has. How many trophies has he won ? None. Yet the body of work he's done is truly sensational imo considering the resources.

I'd have him over Martinez and Di Matteo ,despite them being fa cup and cl winners.

The internet really is a place for such black and white opinions.
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There are a lot of people that don't buy the 'hasn't won a trophy' thing but would rather not get into a multipage back and forth defending another team's manager. Moyes won us the community shield and LVG won the FA cup so it's not hard to see Poch winning one of the lesser trophies with United's financial backing
 
Greck said:
There are a lot of people that don't buy the 'hasn't won a trophy' thing but would rather not get into a multipage back and forth defending another team's manager. Moyes won us the community shield and LVG won the FA cup so it's not hard to see Poch winning one of the lesser trophies with United's financial backing
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That's a very good point and definitely fair enough.
 
togg said:
Jose won us two trophies last season. He knows how to win. Poch is a great coach and is doing well with Spurs....but he still needs to learn how to win. That final push separates the 'greats' from the 'pretty goods' !
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Simple as. Mourinho would have won something with this Spurs side. Credit for Pochettino for developing this team, but if you cannot win then you do not belong with the likes of Mourinho. It wouldn’t be good enough at United.
 
I get why people are saying that not winning anything with this Spurs side should be a blot rather than a badge, but one needs to consider the squad depth before having such expectations. They have a great starting XI but their bench isn't of a quality that can win titles. A lot of it is down to the tighter finances he works unlike Pep and Mou.
It would be interesting to see how his career pans out when he's managing huge egos unlike Spurs where he has a side who are thankful to him for making them big names.
I would love to see him manage United after Mou, although wouldn't want Mou sacked just so that he can take over
 
I think his man management skills are impressive too.

No idea how he manages to keep hold of his star players, keep them motivated and stop their heads being turned by other clubs, whilst paying them peanuts. Seems like similar to Jose the players have really built a connection with him, some appear to value this more than £. Some of these players must be infatuated with Poch or the club to still be there on their wages.
 
haram said:
Simple as. Mourinho would have won something with this Spurs side. Credit for Pochettino for developing this team, but if you cannot win then you do not belong with the likes of Mourinho. It wouldn’t be good enough at United.
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Spurs have a ready made no.9 and no.10, two workhorse midfielder, one specialized DM, fantastic centre backs.

Mourinho won the EL and League Cup last season with a worse team than that Spurs side. I think it's unquestionable that he would win something with this Spurs squad.
 
InLevyITrust said:
Nail on head, football isn't as black and white as most fans make out. If it was it wouldn't be the most popular sport on earth. You need to look at a much bigger picture than just trophies, I think this is difficult for some United fans to do simply because of the success and size of the club you are.
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I think he’s absolutely been a success, I can’t really believe it’s even a question to be honest. The difference between Spurs pre- Poch’ and now, are stark. Yes, Harry got them top four and built a decent side, it was nowhere near the level they are now. For the first time I can remember they have a genuinely threatening side with top players in all departments. Also, almost all those players have become better under Poch’. The interesting thing is whether they can get to the next level i.e Premier League champions (hope not of course!)

An FA cup would certainly help the manager credibility wise but I still think he’s done a great job either way.
 
breakout67 said:
Spurs have a ready made no.9 and no.10, two workhorse midfielder, one specialized DM, fantastic centre backs.

Mourinho won the EL and League Cup last season with a worse team than that Spurs side. I think it's unquestionable that he would win something with this Spurs squad.
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Highly debatable. Are you referring to the starting 11 or the squad as a whole?
 
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