A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino
- Thread starter NotBrendanRodgers honest
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A little off topic but other threads got me thinking about this and it felt more appropriate to put this here.
I don’t really get why Poch gets so much credit for “overperforming with an underdog.” At some point you certainly have to be judging how good a squad is based off of the quality of the players available regardless of how much they cost. This team has been together for a while and I would think most people would agree that their squad is as good or better than what Chelsea, Arsenal, and ourselves have and not far off Liverpool. I just don’t really think he’s overperforming that much considering the talent that he has available.
And regarding the squad building on a budget shouldn’t Levy be getting most of the credit? Spurs were gathering very good players on the cheap before Poch got there and I thought that was more Levy’s job anyway.
Not to be bashing Poch unnecessarily it just seems like his status has mysteriously been boosted recently to the point where he is a 10/10 top manager where I just don’t see that he’s earned that at this point.
I don’t really get why Poch gets so much credit for “overperforming with an underdog.” At some point you certainly have to be judging how good a squad is based off of the quality of the players available regardless of how much they cost. This team has been together for a while and I would think most people would agree that their squad is as good or better than what Chelsea, Arsenal, and ourselves have and not far off Liverpool. I just don’t really think he’s overperforming that much considering the talent that he has available.
And regarding the squad building on a budget shouldn’t Levy be getting most of the credit? Spurs were gathering very good players on the cheap before Poch got there and I thought that was more Levy’s job anyway.
Not to be bashing Poch unnecessarily it just seems like his status has mysteriously been boosted recently to the point where he is a 10/10 top manager where I just don’t see that he’s earned that at this point.
I fully agree with this post. Regarding the bold, maybe @Amadaeus would care to explain?
The counter argument is that the team was not better than anyone and the said talents were not really developed to start with.
Poch was responsible for developing these talents in the right way that they became bigger talents and that made the team better than Chelsea and Arsenal
I am not really convinced. But that is the argument anyways
And I suppose there is some truth to that but young players are almost certainly going to get better. If you are buying a highly rated youngster (which Son/Eriksen/Alli were) than you’d expect them to improve a lot in the next few years which again leads me more to compliment Levy for bringing in the talent and not Poch for not ruining their natural development once they got there. Maybe that seems a little harsh but as far as player development goes I think Poch has done what you’d expect a good coach to do and I think he’s a good coach.
And I meant to be looking more at what he’s done with the talent he’s got now and less with how that talent came to be.
Since when do We judge managers on game to game basis?
Ole lost, people said He's not the manager We should appoint.
Poch lost, people said He's not the manager We should appoint.
But wait all it takes is a few convincing wins and They're back at it again!
Most of us were saying Poch isn't good enough for United job for ages but his die hard fans just don't want to admit it.
Utds Squad is far better than Spurs in my opinion. Poch is massively overachieving
Agree completely.
Which tbf still doesn't mean Poch is the right guy for us. Managers can be suited for one job but not another, especially as the circumstances he'd face here would be quite different.
I certainly think he is doing an excellent job at Spurs though, both in general and specifically this season.
I’m not going to use United’s squad for an argument to compare as I know I’m biased. If we compare to Arsenal’s, Spurs are far superior I think, I also think it is better than Chelsea’s. Even against Liverpool I don’t see much difference but Im naturally biased against them also, I still can’t believe how well they are doing with their midfield
I don't see anything wrong with the position they're in, they're below the two best teams in England and above Us (we were crap at the start), Chelsea (They haven't been anything good, take hazard out and they're average) and Arsenal (Well, they're arse).
How is being 3rd with their defence and attackers "Massively Overachieving"?
It's out of context - I was replying to another comment. I think Poch is a great manager and would be happy if he gets the United job, though my heart is set on Ole. Just annoyed by the suggestion Ole is tactically naive and Poch is light years ahead in this regard. We haven't seen enough evidence to judge that yet.
He's done a fine job at Spurs but if the Real Madrid job is available in the summer, it'll be his if he wants it and he should take it to be honest. If it all goes wrong, it won't be the end of his career in management by any stretch of the imagination. He's taken Spurs as far as he can.
He needs to leave Spurs and start winning trophies to show that he’s a top level manager. Same goes for Kane they have gone as far as they can with Spurs. Hopefully he goes to some big European club soon its awkward being a fan of the Tottenham manager.
Imagine Poch trying to deal with the pressure of the Real job 
it'll be fun to see when it eventually happens.
it'll be fun to see when it eventually happens.If he does that then there's an expectation to win, and with him, much like Klopp, they prefer to be the underdog so when they do achieve it's a case of over achievement and less pressure to meet expectations. He won't leave and he won't start winning trophies, he's happy where he is, he can do what he wants.
I guess I just don’t see how that’s true. He’s had years to put together a squad that suits his playing style (which is not true for the managers of Chelsea, Arsenal and ourselves) which is a big help, and if you made a combined 11 as an example of comparison between our squads there are a lot of Spurs players for me.
DDG
Trippier Lindelof Vertongen Rose/Davies
Eriksen Herrera Pogba
Son Kane Martial/Rashford
This probably be mine and Alli, Winks, Sissoko, Llamela, and Lucas wouldn’t be far off. You can say that having Sanchez, Mata, and Lukaku on our bench proves that our squad is stronger but to me they are just bigger names and Lucas and even Llamela are producing more.
I think it would be a real shame to upset the coaches we have now at present. They are working magnificently together and seem to be working out all tactics as a unit.
Why are they producing more?
Because currently they might be better players and are definitely playing in a system that suits them more? Maybe they are in worse form than I realized because I haven’t been watching all of Spurs games recently but from what I have seen they’d be an improvement on our options on the right wing.
EDIT: Maybe I should have said would produce more. As in, if they were on our squad I think either would be starting on our right wing and we would be a better team for it because I think they’d be an improvement on our current options.
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Sure he got players that suit his style, or rather he is finding systems that suit his players which is all down to the manager. Poch often has to rely on and develop academy players such as Winks, Skipp and Walker Peters and in the past Mason, or young players such as Foyth and Sanchez. Most players Pochettino bought were players other big teams didn't want such as Moura, Son, Sissoko, Trippier, Davies, Alderweireld. He also managed to get the most from other players who I guess people now would say were under-performing such as Walker, Rose and Dembele.
I'm not saying Spurs got bad players, but considering the team he took over (which was in a very bad state) and where we are now we have come a long way both in terms of quality and mentality and with spending and with wages more in line with Everton, West Ham, Leicester and Crystal Palace. He isn't perfect, but he has improved as a manager and any spurs fan will rightly praise him for what he has done.
Imagine Poch trying to deal with the pressure of the Real job
I don't think the manager has been born yet who can cope with Real on a sustained basis. They should have moved heaven and earth to keep Zidane happy after what he did for them.
I would generally agree with all of that and especially the bold part. I think he’s very good and I think Spurs should be very happy to have him. I just think the way he’s been talked about on the Caf lately it’s like he’s somehow jumped into the category of elite managers and I just don’t think he’s earned that at this point.
My main point I guess is that at some point if you are consistently overachieving then I don’t think you are overachieving anymore, it’s just where you belong. This is a team that was in a title race a few years ago (and frankly sort of bottled it against a team that was truly overachieving) and finished second the year after. Is it really overachieving for that team to finish third the next two years? Maybe, but to me it’s not by a lot.
What about Klopp? Is he underperforming too? After all, the only cup he's lifted with Liverpool thus far is probably the cup of coffee he drinks every morning at Anfield. Most importantly, should their board be credided for assembling a good squad on the cheap -especially after selling their most valuable asset twice and not spending the money on ready-made world-class replacements- or should the German take the credit for identifying low on radar targets that suit his brand of football and thus helping these players reach their full potential and the whole team perform much better than the sum of its parts?
The question you should be asking is not one of money. Is Kane adding more things to his game every season under Pochettino's guidance? Is Eriksen going through his best footballing years under him? Have both Rose and Walker developed into excellent modern-day full-backs by following his instructions? Has a difficult personality like Alli become a rising star in English football with Pochettino as manager? Is their defensive organization the most rock-solid in the league? Your post sounds like Pochettino had nothing to do with these players' steadily increasing value over the last three-four seasons. And this is highly unfair on the man as it is unfair to suggest that only thing Solskjaer has done at United is to fix the atmosphere in the dressing room. Just because someone is a top-class footballer (i.e. Pogba) doesn't mean that he will play well under any kind of instructions.
Last but not least, you expect him to win the title with Dier and Sissoko in the midfield? You really do? When half of the Caf believes that United needs an upgrade on Matic and the addition of a world-class DLP? With all the money being thrown in the PL, is it such a small task to confidently finish in the top-four for successive seasons when you know that there are 5 clubs that can easily outspend you and offer much higher wages? He hasn't won a cup yet, true enough. But shouldn't we take into consideration that he's led a non-quantity in European football for thirty years or so into the knock-out stages of the CL for two seasons in a row (and now they'll play a QF) by progressing from very tough groups?
Pochettino is a very good manager who may one day get his chance at a big club. That big club won't be United because we seem lucky enough to have found one of very own, who lives and breathes United, to take us forward. But this doesn't mean that Poch hasn't been one of the most interesting figures of the PL since his days at Southampton.
There are more ways than one to interpret what is/has been happening. And I completely understand why some don't rate him as highly as myself and I have no problem with that.
Perhaps as you say the squad is not overachieving, but is merely achieving, which in itself is remarkable considering where we came from. But some part of Spurs has to take credit for that considering the history, wages and transfer fees. Some people prefer to give credit to recruitment, some people to Pochettino, some to luck, and some to a collective underachievement of other clubs.
Before the season started I predicted us to finish third so I don't think it's a surprise that we are where we are. But the fact that I expect us to finish ahead of three other clubs who spend considerably more than us says a lot. I did hope we would lift a cup, but so far our best chance was ruined by injuries to several key attackers. Now I hope for third place and a semi final in the CL which would be fantastic.
edit: and considering the Leicester point. That summer we had a massive transition in players and was Pochettinos second season. We started slowly and were 4th around Christmas. After that Arsenal and City fell away, and Leicester continues picking up points. We couldn't close the gap and after it was apparent we couldn't catch Leicester we collapsed. In my eyes we haven't bottled a title, we were never able to close the gap to Leicester/Chelsea and this year we don't seem to have enough to keep pace with Liverpool/City.
Pretty much this. Is he some exceptional tactical mastermind that can get his players playing well above their potential? No. He clearly has good players, but it's pretty clear that he's improved those players and put them in to a system which suits them and is effective. A lot of the players people consider excellent now simply weren't rated as highly when Poch took over, he's developed them superbly. Rose and Walker for example were headless chickens who most considered a weakness at Spurs, a year or two later and they were one of our biggest strengths.
Pochettino is competing against Klopp and Guardiola. They're both also exceptional managers, world class ones in fact. Except they have the luxury of being able to go out and buy a top class cb or goalkeeper if the need suits them, or you know .. Riyad Mahrez so he can warm the bench. Is Pochettino expected to best them with less resources to prove himself? Would Klopp or Guardiola if put in charge of this Spurs team be winning the league?
People expect too much from managers. They are very important and can make a big difference, but they have their limitations and none are faultless. Pochettino is competing against numerous brilliant managers in the league, many of which have greater flexibility than he does because if needs be they are able to go out and buy a ready made player in any position. Pochettino has been forced to improvise on many occasions and be more patient with players, which can be good in the long term but isn't the quick fix that signing a VVD or Alisson is.
I think when rating a manager you have to look at if Pochettino left the club now, has he left us in a better state than when he took over? The answer is a resounding yes, we're far better off, and it's especially impressive given the backing he's had, which has been inferior to numerous other Spurs managers in the past.
Wow, lot going on here. You really took the liberty of putting s lot of words in my mouth I didn’t say and arguments I didn’t make.
Going to largely ignore your Klopp tangent because I feel it’s for a different thread but no neither are underperforming. At no point did I imply in any way I thought that Poch should be doing better than he is.
Maybe money shouldn’t be the conversation point but it usually is what is brought up which is what I was addressing. I think he has done a good job of player development but my argument is that young players should get better. Maybe my lost didn’t seem to give him enough credit for that but your post makes it sound like none of these players would have amounted to anything I’d Poch wasn’t holding their hand through every training session and I disagree with that.
Wtf are you on about here?? At no point did I say anything remotely along the lines of expecting them to win the title or any silverware. And then you go on about how much money is spent where you previously said that it’s what mattered.
Overall I actually agree with a lot of what you said actually which is why it seems strange that you felt the need to put words in my mouth and make up arguments that I didn’t make. There is a big difference between thinking someone is overachieving and someone is underachieving. My point is that I think he has his squad is performing about as it should be which therefore isn’t overachieving as many on here are lauding him for.
This is basically the point I wanted to make. It’s not meant as a criticism of Poch, more a compliment to Spurs overall. I just have some issue with people who seem to want to give Poch sole credit for everything good Spurs have done and then also claim that he is massively overachieving on top of it. I think he is a good manager of a team that should expect to be near the top of the league and that’s a credit to him and the organization.
I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, i was just asking some questions to see where you stand on the matter. Apologies if my post came out in a way that made you believe so.
Anyway, there were two things that triggered my initial response. Firstly, the notion that Spurs are near the quality that Liverpool possess. This season i don't believe that's true. Liverpool now seem to have enough depth to help them get over the finishing line first even with Klopp's tactics which demand lots of energy from his players. Pochettino, as a manager who also relies upon dynamic runs and sheer physicality to make his system work, didn't get the chance to add anything to his squad either in terms of quality or depth.
The second thing was that Levy should get most of the applause for their current squad status. He indeed is very good at his job but when you see a team with a very distinct way of playing the game, when you can discern several aspects of their tactics in all thirds of the pitch and when you see players who are being used to their strengths in these tactics, you know that this is the work of the manager.
I guess that after 5 and a half years of Moyes, LvG and Mourinho a manager who can help a team realise its current potential is a good manager in my book. You made your point clear with your last sentence, so i agree that there's not very much that we disagree with on this particular matter.
In that case I also apologize for misreading your intentions with the questions you asked and being more defensive than I should have. I would agree with you that we seem to be in agreement on most of this subject.
I probably just shouldn’t have mentioned Liverpool at all. I more meant that as a comment on how I think Liverpool have a noticeably weaker squad than City and in quality are probably closer to the rest of the top 6. But I agree that there is a noticeable difference in depth between Spurs and Liverpool.
I also don’t want to come across as not giving Poch credit where he is due. I do think he’s a very good manager I just question when posters seem to want to give him sole credit for how good Spurs are at the moment when there are other contributing factors, one of which is Levy also being good at his job.
Burnley was a tricky fixture and Pochettino doesn’t have the luxury that other top teams have with rotation. They can only put out a competitive first eleven week in week out, whereas his rivals can put out two competitive first eleven. Some of there players looked like they needed some rest and with regards to performance, his side was much superior. Burley two goals was very lucky.
Looking at the Liverpool game, Pochettino put on a much more superior performance than Klopp. Klopp had only one plan and it was nullified easily. Whereas Pochettino, delivered one of the best attacking display against United in a long time. It is no wonder that De Gea sealed his shoe, put that it on display in his trophy room.
Looking at the Liverpool game, Pochettino put on a much more superior performance than Klopp. Klopp had only one plan and it was nullified easily. Whereas Pochettino, delivered one of the best attacking display against United in a long time. It is no wonder that De Gea sealed his shoe, put that it on display in his trophy room.
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Burnley have a much smaller budget and less rotation than Spurs and won, so by your logic is Dyche better than Poch?
Anamolies happens in football. I never set the logic you stated I set.
That's bollocks. Out of the top teams City is the only one that has real strength in depth.
Your tagline should be changed from "Ooh, rock me!" to "Ooh, Poch me!" or something.
Aye yeah winning a one off game by playing shithouse tactics is definitely equivalent to overachieving across an entire season.
Is this Amadaeus character a parody account?
Poch doesn't really overachieve though.
You have a really strong side, With a really strong attack.
You do well to comfortably be top four, but that isn't overachieving.
Also downplaying Sean Dyche to winning a one off game is odd, he's done a great job at Burnley.
He's massively overachieved overall at Spurs given what the original targets would have been and the money he has been able to invest. He also did very well to weather a serious injury crisis, has us almost in to a CL quarter final vs a very strong Dortmund side. We're arguably the third best squad in the league but he has us VERY comfortably in third and doing very well in Europe. This team was also built by him, so the credit for that should go his way for developing the players.
We have a strong side .. so do Chelsea, so do United, City are unreal and Liverpool have Salah, Mane and Firmino. We've had to very much make do in midfield and don't have the luxury of being able to pluck out a world class player when something isn't working. Liverpool, City or United go out and throw 60/70m on a CM in the summer.
Dyche has done a good job. I like him as a manager. The point was that 'is he better than Poch because he won the game?' was a stupid argument.
I knew you'd come out with that kind of excuse. You didn't disappoint.