No way Poch will leave Spurs for United. When he eventually splits, it will be for Real, Barca, Milan or something.
A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino
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Poch is a very good manager and gets his players to be disciplined, improves them according to how they set up to play.
My biggest concern isn't Poch, but more so that the structure he's been in at Southampton and now Spurs have been a great fit for him and vice versa. I don't think United's identification, scouting and recruitment structure is as good as Spurs.
My biggest concern isn't Poch, but more so that the structure he's been in at Southampton and now Spurs have been a great fit for him and vice versa. I don't think United's identification, scouting and recruitment structure is as good as Spurs.
It's unfair on Ole really, because under most other circumstances he would be given a go, but Ed was happy to brief the press that we were going to go for Poch in the summer, and for good reason, so he needs to follow it through now.
Ole was brought in to steady the ship, and improve things until the end of the season, which he is doing very well, but that doesn't mean long term plans should be changed.
I am not optimistic about us and Poch.
1.Ed never said that we are going for Poch or that Ole will not stay.
2. Our players have huge influence. They are going in public how they are happy with Ole. It means something.
3. Ole said that he wants to stay. He would not say that if he doesn't have some good info from Ed
4. If he gets that 4th spot( and he will
) then Ed will be under huge pressure5. He is much much much cheaper than Poch
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I am not optimistic about us and Poch.
1.Ed never said that we are going for Poch or that Ole will not stay.
2. Our players have huge influence. They are going in public how how they are happy with Ole. It means something.
3. Ole said that he wants to stay. He would not say that if he doesn't have some good info from Ed
4. If he gets that 4th spot( and he will
5. He is much much much cheaper than Poch
That's the most important one, and to do it with most fans on board will make it easy.
Hopefully if that's the case Ole will be given money, and that part won't be done on the cheap aswell, but you have to have your doubts.
Yeah of course the entire United fan base would unanimously choose Pulisic over Eriksen and Son
FFS just stop embarrassing yourself now, you're talking shit
WTF has Vertonghen got to do with anything?
It's an example of another player who has played multiple positions but is still clearly naturally a central defender?
Alves is a right back naturally, that's been the main position he's played throughout his career and at PSG. Occasionally he's been used as a right midfielder and he can play that role, but it's not his natural one.
You must have misread my post, which I am not surprised. If you read closely, I stated that United fan would unanimously choose Sancho out of all the attackers that played yesterday. Pulsic “may be” even with Eriksen and Son. I didn’t change anything in my post and that is what I clearly stated. If you misunderstood something as simple as that, you may have misunderstood my entire post and actually agree with everything I have said.
Yeah of course the entire United fan base would unanimously choose Pulisic over Eriksen and Son
FFS just stop embarrassing yourself now, you're talking shit
Lad, eh? Haven’t been called that for decades.
People frequently change their minds about an opinion that was previously held but yours was an extreme case of recency bias.
No matter.
The only teams not mentioned by any respondents are Barcelona and Manchester City.
That puts PSG at about number 3 or 4 in World Club Football.
Yup. I think that's the predicament. It is in fact available options - most will agree we need major recruitment.- and it's also just getting the manager comfortable. The results we've seen are from Ole and the coaching staff asking the players to be more free and expressive. Pretty great start for just a few tweaks and direction.
The PSG match was an interesting one. Prior to the injuries I think we'd all have seen it as wishful thinking to get thru the tie. I wonder if maybe we would have been a bit more conservative with Neymar and Cavani on the pitch. Ironically, if they were I really do imagine PSG would have been much more open and less tactically sound than they were with pretty much a workhorse outfit. Might have been a better match and chance for us than a very good team coming to play a very tactical game.
And of course the half time double injury and then red card just throws everything up.
Same. Actually if (when) United go out this year, I'll be hoping Spurs win it, even if we have to suffer Glastonbury. I wouldn't mind seeing Dortmund do it either with Sancho but I think Spurs put that to bed.
I don't think that's too far from the truth. Juventus are in and around there. Hopefully we won't be saying that Liverpool are up there too at the end of the season.
Sorry mate but I don't agree with this.
It's like people saying Spurs regularly get top four down to Poch's excellence etc, but then when the bad results come Poch is separated from then along with a host of excuses. It's just what fans of football teams and particular managers do.
Simply put, if the situation was in reverse, and A new Spurs manager lost a game against a top European side after going on a solid run during a previously poor season, you'd 100% be saying he's not been at the club long enough to fully leave his mark on the side.
We lost against PSG because two of our three attackers had to come off mid game and because they're simply better than us.
Any United fan saying we have enough to challenge for the title is very optimistic imo. We are a good side, probably even a very good side; we lack in a couple of areas though, I'm just happy that for what feels like the first time in years the management of the side isn't one of them.
I'm honestly doubtful many have said we have what it takes to challenge for the title at the moment anyway, and as for having a perfect side for counter attacking, it's pretty much common knowledge our defence is in a terrible state along with question marks over our midfield and right wing; how does that correlate to having a perfect side for counter attacking?
If you could find plenty of examples of united fans on here saying anything contrary id love to see it.
I agree with you.
Just like Ole has goodwill in the bank Pochettino has had that all the way because of how he transformed the club and consistently overachieved. The result against Genk and the late season collapse that allowed Arsenal to snatch second place have been the worst it's been under Poch. If the team performed like against Genk every season in Europe, and if we collapsed in the league regularly he would receive a lot of criticism. But since we have seen stable improvements then it's different.
Right now Ole is Schrödingers Ole. You don't know if he's good or bad before he is given a chance to shape the team like he would like. What he has done is impressive, but there is a lot we don't know about him as a manager when it comes to building a team. However, I'm not buying that many of the players are just 'bad'. It's the managers job to be able to set the team up in such a way as to enhance their strength and hide their weakness. Yes, Mata is slow and not that physical, yes Pogba is not defensively strong and has lapse in concentration. Ole solved the latter by finding a formation that played to Pogbas strength and in return he has been one of the best players in Europe based on recent form. Is that type of coaching and tactic impossible with Mata and Sanchez etc? There are clear weaknesses with many players in the Spurs squad as well, but I think Pochettino regularly find a way to get the best qualities from his best players and hide their weaknesses.
This is not a dig at Ole, and I think it's unfair to compare the two because one has only been at his role for a few months. But if Ole get the job he will need to develop his squad, and create a tactically flexible squad with different solutions that play to his players strengths. This could involve buying better players, but I'm tired of the constant talk that 10+ players are too bad, they is talent there, but they need to be put in a position to succeed.
Strange post.
It baffles you because you are used to the needs of the club you support. For a Spurs yout potential counts as paramount. For Clubs like United it cant. Winning is the priority. Not the potential to win
For the same reasons the likes of Mourinho left an Inter for Real Madrid. He might relish the challenge of a bigger club than Spurs. The key being any move he'd make would be from a position of strength. Even if he went to a place as chaotic as a Real Madrid he'd be as untouchable as a Pep is currently at City. If he left this summer he'd not have that
.
That argument proves you fundementally misunderstand why winning is highlighted. It is highlighted because a person who has won things has shown they can live with the pressure of having to take first place. And for big clubs thar pressure is constant. 'Other teams are competive' is treated as an excuse. At a big club you must either win in or at worst fall narrowly at the last hurdle to the guy who did. Your past is used against you constantly. Especially your past success.
Ole was merely appointed to care take. Steady the ship till the next guy is appointed.
Its how well he has done so far that is making the United board consider him long term as 'the next guy'. It also cannot be overlooked that being a former United player had a great deal to do with why he even got such a chance after his Cardif. That is advantage former players at big clubs have over outsiders if potential alone is being assessed
2 things did it. Solksjaer is ALSO a winner and he isnt a confrotation magnet like Keane.
Oh really?
Is Solksjaer United's permanent manager yet? Why not? If you think even he doesnt have to prove himself in these 6 months of audtioning to be permanent boss?
That's all we and good as an answer for YOU. You however are NOT a big club.
Being on the Pochetino bandwagon rather. When he hasnt shown any ability to win anything just like a certain Moyes before him is what is foolish. Even his attitude towards fostering a winning culture by targeting winnable trophies, to build winning know how, doesnt inspire confidence. He just reminds of Wenger who would constantly target the Champions League over league over all else, when it was obvious he lacked the tools to target more than the league and the fa cup, and he'd push his team to breaking point and his season would suddenly crash and burn. Which is what repeatedly has happened with Spurs in recent years. To manage succesfully at a United you must demonstrate not only the ability to win, but the ability to win things and do welll EVEN in the middle of a rebuild. Which Fergie mastered. Which the likes of LVG, Mouri ho and Moyes all failed at.
For me even if Ole gets overlooked, I dont want him getting the job. For Pochetino for all his wonderful building at Spurs isnt demonstrating that ability.
Meaningless statement utilizing a word like 'loads' for vague emphasis to make it seem like you are actually making a point. If he was deployed as a RW it was a rarity.
Playing in the usual 433 that they employed it would have been Pedro, Sanchez, etc and Alves was a RWB or RFB. And all of this simply ignores the fact that the man is now 35 years old and was moved on from Barca because it was believed he no longer had the chops to hack it...you know, because he was old then and the inexorable march of time has made him older now.
You are twisting facts to suit your arguments. Goetze has been starting at the 9 for a few games now. Alcacer is in fact not an automatic starter for BVB. He alternates with Goetze.
The only automatic starters BVB, (typcially 4231) were missing were Pisczek(sp?), Reus, and Akanji. They did move players around somewhat but not in too unfamiliar of positions. All the other positions had players available that have started this season when Favre had actual choice for the XI. So basically very similar to Spurs who were missing Kane, Alli, and whichever actual LB you consider the starter because both were unavailable. Both teams were very similarly hampered by injury and to utilize it in this instance is a scoundrel's ploy.
This is such an absolutely foolish statement. And you have made it multiple times in a few different guises. The cost of a player(s) is directly established from the players' recognized or perceived abilities, past performance (serving as the basis of such perceptions), perceived future performance (serving as the basis of a market value). Therefore the cost of a player(s), ie market value, is directly related to the perceived quality of a player(s). WTF else would it be based on?
Better players cost more. It logically follows that better teams are assembled more expensively. Their has to be inputs in one form or another. If you decided to purchase your quality as finished product then it costs more on the front end. If you decide to develop it it may cost less on the front end relative to purchasing the finished product but the good 'raw material' still costs relatively more than the shit 'raw materal'.
If a player's cost is not based on or reflective of 'quality' then in as simply as you can state it please tell us what the cost of a player is based on? Twitter emojis? Hairstyles or other branding BS?
Simple question, has United spent more money than Cardiff? Does united have greater player-quality than Cardiff? That suggests that there is a correlation between money spent and player quality, no? Do that comparison all the way up the table and where does that correlation fall away. Some where about the top 6 right? Why? Diminishing returns possibly? You can keep paying more and more money but if you are buying shit players it doesn't disprove the correlation between money and player quality it just means the other team saw you coming a mile away.
Look at Martial who Spurs were negotiating for 18M yet United paid >50M for. Not looking to get into a pissing match here but it could be reasonably argued that he still hasn't justified that price yet even in this inflated market. Yet he would have developed nicely for 18M of raw material which would have been a lot to spend on player in need of developing relative to other options. The problem isn't the correlation between money and player quality the problem is you are using United's lavish and low-value (cost relative to actual ability) expenditures as the basis of your analysis.
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Agree with this, I never understand how can Levy keep players at club and extend their contracts on less wages (compared to current market)when some of them can get better contracts else where.
And also Spurs eye for good players is pretty decent and gettimg good money while selling players is also top notch
Only thing we are better at is we won a lot more than Spurs
Whatever you meant you're wrong
Which facts am I twisting? That Gotze played out of position as a false 9 or that Pulisic is in single digits for starts in 2019? Tell me which of those facts are twisted?
Just responding to this little bit. There are many factors that plays a part with winning, especially for a manager where 11 other players are the ones to do it on the pitch. Emery won the EL and also the French league, I don't think that in itself makes him a better manager than Poch. Similarly I don't think Poch would be a better manager if he went to PSG and won the league. He wouldn't suddenly magically receive a new quality called 'proven winner'.
What a load of crap.
When it comes to the league or CL, you need to have or develop the potential to win before you can go on actualise that potential and actually win. Currently, United don't even have much potential to win the league or CL (so far behind the curve is your club), yet here's you banging on with unwarranted arrogance about "winning is the priority not potential to win".
Still, I suppose your delusions helps you to keep up the pretence that United are still in some 'elite' bracket alongside the likes of Barca and Real Madrid.
Pochettino isn't going to United regardless, but I sincerely hope United do appoint (yet again) some "proven winner" as manager in the summer …. because it'll likely mean one less rival for Spurs to bother about.
Are you saying United aren't an elite club?
It's also cute the one less rival for Spurs to bother about line. The only rival Spurs have is Arsenal, Chelsea and West Ham, and that's down to Geography. Spurs shouldn't care about anyone else because no one cares about them.
United are an elite club in terms of history and income, but have not been an elite club in terms of football for the last half decade and counting …. because elite football clubs do not finish outside the top 4 in their own domestic league more often then not.
Your claim that Spurs are not rivals to United falls flat given the league table in the majority of seasons since Fergie retired.
tldr both are twisted and most of what I have seen you post in this thread but I only get 3 posts a day. One has to be economical.
So when you said this:
Choosing Pulisic was an odd tactical choice but to put it down as due to injury would be self-serving of your argument but not necessarily an accurate assessment of the situation. Both JBL and Guerrero were on the bench and available for selection and both have been the starters at ALM this year. It probably had to do with Favre's choice to go 433, as opposed to their typical 4231, to dominate our perceived weak MF yet still remain a threat in behind our FBs. It was a very attacking setup to be sure. It was a good idea but BVB's players are weak and got physically dominated thus negating their numerical MF advantage.
So which of those facts are twisted? Well, both as I have demonstrated. Pulisic starting single digits in 2019 may in fact be true but that was a choice not necessarily dictated by injury and Goetze was not played 'out of position' as that has been his position under Favre. It was probably due to having better dribbling/speed threats on the wings. See how easy that was?
Have a look for yourself as knowledge is power. It will also help you to avoid making such misleading statements in the future. Perhaps it may even help you to make more convincing, good-faith arguments but that would necessitate better logic and not contorting the facts to fit your preconceived notions. So you would have to bone up there.
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/borussia-dortmund/spielplan/verein/16/saison_id/2018/plus/1#L1
It's literally spelled out for you in the post you quoted. Goetze was not necessarily chosen due to other injuries. He has been chosen there quite often all year. In fact it seems Favre prefers him to start there and bring Alcacer off the bench especially since Alcacer has gone off the boil. But they share the 9.
So when you said this:
It was in fact a mischaracterization of the situation (at best) or disingenuous (if I'm being less charitable). Injury did not necessarily force Favre's hand in picking Goetze at the 9. In fact the last two games vs Hoffenheim and Bremen Goetze started, vs Bayern (big game) and many other games also.
Choosing Pulisic was an odd tactical choice but to put it down as due to injury would be self-serving of your argument but not necessarily an accurate assessment of the situation. Both JBL and Guerrero were on the bench and available for selection and both have been the starters at ALM this year. It probably had to do with Favre's choice to go 433, as opposed to their typical 4231, to dominate our perceived weak MF yet still remain a threat in behind our FBs. It was a very attacking setup to be sure. It was a good idea but BVB's players are weak and got physically dominated thus negating their numerical MF advantage.
So which of those facts are twisted? Well, both as I have demonstrated. Pulisic starting single digits in 2019 may in fact be true but that was a choice not necessarily dictated by injury and Goetze was not played 'out of position' as that has been his position under Favre. It was probably due to having better dribbling/speed threats on the wings. See how easy that was?
Have a look for yourself as knowledge is power. It will also help you to avoid making such misleading statements in the future. Perhaps it may even help you to make more convincing, good-faith arguments but that would necessitate better logic and not contorting the facts to fit your preconceived notions. So you would have to bone up there.
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/borussia-dortmund/spielplan/verein/16/saison_id/2018/plus/1#L1
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An elite club not elite team right now.
Spurs are a better team than United. They are not a bigger club, nowhere near.
Basically.
Arguably Poch would have it easier to build a CL/PL winning team at United than Spurs. Even though they are missing just a few ingredients from being taken seriously as a PL/CL contender, those extra signings they would need to make are probably well out of their reach financially. United are missing much more in terms of quality but have the resources to address all their issues.
Pochettino will definitely take this into consideration if he's offered the job.
Pochettino will definitely take this into consideration if he's offered the job.
League positions doesn't equate to one side being a rival to another
Every season the aim for Man Utd is to challenge for the league title, Spurs dont challenge for the league title ergo I dont view them as a rival. I dont start the season worrying about Spurs so the fact they finish ahead of Man Utd in a top 4 battle is of no more relevance to me than if Arsenal or Chelsea do. Having said that though now I can now see why you view Man Utd as a rival, so like I said cute.
Majority of 3 seasons to 2. Hardly much difference.
Also winning the Europa league is as good as finishing top 4. So we have been in the CL as often as Spurs in your selective timeframe.
Plus we have won more in that time than Spurs have in the last 25 years.
We also finished 2nd last season. Spurs haven't finished higher than second since 1961.
Basically your best spell since the early 60s is around the same as our worst spell since the late 80s.
Also an extra 12-15 months of construction costs isn't going to leave much for transfers. Poch will know this and it's a huge factor.
Also elite clubs win major titles. Not just make the top 4.
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I am ready to bet that if both Ole and Poch stay at their current clubs, next season United will finish above Spurs. Any takers? The loser leaves the Caf foreover.
I'd be saying that it was one poor result and not enough to undo a lot of good work, which is what I have said repeatedly about Ole. If we put in a performance like that at home in a big European game I don't care how long the manager has been there, it's unacceptable. 1 shot on target? No. That should never happen at your own ground. Has Ole had enough time to fully leave his mark on the side? No, but he's had enough time for the team not to be as poor as that. But it's only one game and it's his first loss .. so really it isn't a big deal, is it?
I think the 'we lost because of two injuries' thing would carry more weight if you had looked at all threatening in the first half, but you didn't. For me the game didn't really shift that much from the first to the second half, about 30 minutes in I was saying that I thought PSG looked the bigger threat in behind and that United would get frustrated. I think the injuries are a bit of a convenient excuse for what always looked to be a poor performance, it's especially poor when you consider they were missing two of their best players. Yes though, they are better than you, and losing to them is no embarrassment .. it's just the performance was limp and lacking in any fight, which is never good enough for United.
Ok, a 'perfect side for counter attacking' is an exaggeration, but overall I don't think you have too bad a side and the lack of talent in the side has been overplayed. You've got arguably the best goalie in the world, international level defenders who all cost a pretty price, you're weak at fullback for sure but in midfield the likes of Herrera, Pogba, Matic, Fred etc offer decent balance and some genuine world class talent. Martial, Lingard, Rashford, Mata, Sanchez are hardly poor attacking options, are they? It's pretty clear Mourinho was doing a shit job and United do have some excellent players, now after one loss people are saying there's some huge rebuild job needed? You could do with 2-3 players coming in, but so could most sides. He's hardly working with scraps, the injuries against PSG hurt you but maybe move Lukaku central and Rashford out wide? You keep some pace in the side, you offer a different kind of threat in the middle. We know Lukaku can be an effective threat for other teams, he is for Belgium and he was for Everton and even United last season.
I've seen plenty of United fans push the argument that it's all down to Mourinho and you have a very good squad which would be challenging for the league had Ole been here since the start. Either they believe Ole is some management genius on par with Ferguson, or they think you genuinely have an excellent squad, until it doesn't suit the narrative.
It's a stupid bet because we have no idea what will happen between now and next season.
Poch could lose Eriksen and receive nobody decent to replace him whereas Ole could be handed £200m to spend. This is the kind of bet only an idiot would make unless the transfer window had ended.
Quite the post there buddy. You are correct, the basis for the points I was making was United-related. United's model of doing things right now 'high cost relative to actual ability' proves my point. Money spent doesn't reflect quality. It is the other way around. Player quality reflects transfer value, which is what you have said here. So its nothing to disagree on and it is certainly not foolish.
Do I have to keep on explaining in details all the ways a transfer can go wrong, different causes for a drop in perceived player quality etc.? I certainly hope not.Squishy McTroll is on slating Ole for losing to PSG when we were forced to play Mata and Sanchez who are squad players
I'd love to see Poch that Squishy never shuts up about get some use out of these two players. They would look rubbish at Spurs and shatter Poch's whole low value image.
Slating us for losing to PSG when you're not even in the FA cup anymore and we are.
Slating us for losing when we use players that aren't first choice, when Spurs have lost a lot of games recently with their dross such as Nkoudou that Poch has left to dilapidate instead of keeping them sharp
I'd love to see Poch that Squishy never shuts up about get some use out of these two players. They would look rubbish at Spurs and shatter Poch's whole low value image.
Slating us for losing to PSG when you're not even in the FA cup anymore and we are.
Slating us for losing when we use players that aren't first choice, when Spurs have lost a lot of games recently with their dross such as Nkoudou that Poch has left to dilapidate instead of keeping them sharp
Never thought that Spurs will become the main London club.
Disagree, we were poor first half but carried a threat. Final pass is what was missing. PSG went up a considerable number of levels in the second half and no one knows if that would have been the case had we not had to weaken our side by bringing Sanchez and Mata on
I also think you're putting too much emphasis on names rather than current form/ability. Ignore what Mata and Sanchez have done in the past, both are no where near good enough to play against one of the favourites for the UCL
Big clubs dont care for 'factors'. They only care that you win whislt winning well. Or at worst finish second at the last minute to the winner, whilst doing it well. Its brutal. That why even a serial winner like Mourinho gets spat out the momment he fails to match that standard.
No one said it did. It merely gave him the chance quicker to coach a huge club. Which is my point. When he got there he drowned and got booted out
Correct. Because at PSG the achievement would be the UCL. Not merely lifting any trophy.
Its because of a fundemental understanding of winning at big clubs. Some of yall dare equate winning to mere picking up a trophy like a Di Matteo did. It isnt.
Dortmund are massively overrated in here