Everyone knows I'm a huge fan of his but what he did today was a disgrace.
A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino
- Thread starter NotBrendanRodgers honest
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Aye, a lot of this strikes me as quite reactionary. And it tends to be the way Pochettino's regarded. When they're in form and we're performing poorly he's a must-have, someone we should go all out to get. But when we perform well and they hit a bad patch (as all teams do) suddenly that's flipped on his head and he's suddenly a limited manager in spite of the job he's done at Spurs.
For what it's worth I am leaning more and more towards Ole being given the job, but anyone writing off Spurs on the basis of a patchy spell of form that hasn't even bad that bad is being a bit silly. He's doing a superb job by virtue of even being at the same level as clubs like Chelsea, Arsenal and us considering the resources he's got. Cup competitions ultimately always factor in a lot of luck and can be hard to win - thus far Klopp's won less at Liverpool than Dalglish did in his second spell, but no one would argue Klopp's been worse for Liverpool than Dalglish because he managed to win a League Cup final against Cardiff in a year where they were dreadful domestically. Similarly Juande Ramos is Spurs' most successful manager on paper in the past 15 years or so, but he was also arguably their worst.
There is definitely the risk that he's a polished up version of Moyes.
Yes he's created a really good first team there, but his complete disdain for cups, and appalling record in aways v the top 6 is definitely a worry.
I think it's Ole in the driving seat though. The board cannot have for a second expected we'd go 8/8, beating two big teams away, playing with great style, and him sounding utterly perfect in his conduct to date.
If we continue like this for another month, even if we don't beat PSG and Liverpool, but play well and give it a good go, I think it's his
You're not even slightly tempted by Ole, even though he's been utter perfection since he came in, with a bunch of players Jose had playing dreadfully?
How can a manager be a bottler?
He sets the team out tactically and they go out on the pitch and do their thing. He's not on the field with them missing chances or making defensive errors. Surely the whole idea of bottling it is that you're so nervous and under pressure that you make stupid mistakes that cost you a result? I'm not sure how a manager would be capable of doing that, our problem has never been that the side has gone out without a lack of motivation or belief.
People are so trigger happy with using that term that it's lost any genuine meaning.
Really? Leicester had one season where all the stars aligned for them. You can't hold that against Poch. Sir Alex let Blackburn Rovers win the title. Was he not good enough? We let an 8 point lead slip against Man city. It happens. We don't hold that against Sir Alex because we know his ability, that he is one of the greatest in footbal history. What can't be denied though, is Poch's ability. We get him next summer,and with the resources available here,I am positive we would be back where we belong, at the top.
I know Moyes was a disaster here and he gets a lot of well-deserved stick from United fans, but it's debatable whether Poch has done better for Spurs than Moyes did at Everton, given the relative expectations and resources of those two clubs.
Edit - to be clear, this is purely a judgement on how those two managers performed at those two clubs, not a judgement on whether Poch would do well here. For the record, I'm certain that he'd do far better than Moyes did.
The mentality of the team is from its manager.
If a team keeps bottling favorable situations when they were winning on the first leg, or keeps crumbling under pressure every time the media puts them as a contender, while only wins when no one expects any thing from them, it's pretty weird and ridiculous to not say their manager has failed to make his players adapt with pressure. It ceases to become players problem and becomes a manager's one.
The manager needs to transfer winning mentality to the players and teach them how to adapt under difficult situations and how to deal with pressure. If he fails at that then it's his problem. As I said, the team's mentality comes from its own manager, not the opposite like some are claiming.
Mine would be Poch, tuchel, Ole in that order.
I am happy with 8/8, but I still have a feling that we will come apart when we face tough opposition.
Pochettin0 has made steps up when all the steps fell in to place too.
United have been weaker. Arsenal have been weaker. City have been strong a season & then off the next season pre Pep. The same with chrslsea - good for one season then nothing on the other. Liverpool were nothing pre klopp who has made steps up that can't be compared to pochettin0 in 2- 3 seasons.
Pochettin0'ability to get to top 4-which is his apparent strength is directly related to a time when his opposition has been inconsistent & weak. He has arguably been consistent but couldn't really come up with the goods in any direction when a club like Leicester did.
Sir Alex had already shown he's a winner. Poch has shown nothing like that. It's not only a question of having access to a big budget - we have been giving our managers all the financial support and they still sucked. Why are you so convinced about Poch whose never shown a winning mentality and who is not comfortable with the little scrutiny he has had to face so far? What do you think would happen to him at United with everyone focusing 24/7 on everything you do whether good or bad? Does he really strike you as the kind of personality to handle that well?
So your admitting that Poch and his Spurs team are not 'tough' opposition. So why do you want Poch?
What's that, like seriously ? We didn't hold it against SAF because of the shite ton he won the previous several years. In fact SAF with Aberdeen when we got him won big things, European title and European Super cup with some other domestic titles. He wasn't a no name actually. Never was.
If we're not rating Tottenham or Arsenal away as tough, then there's very few games a season we need to worry about!
It's the crap teams we were mostly struggling with this season with Jose!
Poch is no big game hero himself. Dreadful record in the big aways and big cup games.
It's amusing, as after 1/2/3 games, we had all this "it's only....xxx games" stuff. Then it was not tough games. You could imagine these people would find an excuse if it was PSG or Liverpool.
Even Ince was chatting about how it's not the right thing as Di Matteo won the champions league and still got sacked
So in that context, it's impossible for Ole!
I just hope Ole continues to take it one game at a time and don't take any teams lightly. If he keeps getting things right, then I doubt Poch would be in the conversation.
But yes, it seems Ole has to pass some sort of amazing test before he can be considered.
Spurs should not even be in the conversation for any titles tbh. I do wonder how Poch will deal with the dynamic of having to win everytime rather than being an underdog...
Personally I would keep OGS. That game vs Arsenal was the definition of a classic Manchester United.
Personally I would keep OGS. That game vs Arsenal was the definition of a classic Manchester United.
+1, I really don’t get the caf sometimes. Ole all the way, and why not go for the 89 pts? It would be glorious, and let’s beat PSG in the CL at least.
Yep, completely.
Drilling Burnley in 2 days time is the only game that matters right now.
We all know that we would have lost the game without DDG. We were completely dominated in the second half.It was very similar to the Arsenal game away in 2017.
One game at a time for Ole however boring that may be.... but even when he loses the odd game here and there, I still wouldn't fancy Poch just because he doesn't fit. Completely wrong mentality. Imagine him saying the cups aren't important when he's United manager? Imagine what we would be thinking if our manager doesn't value all trophies, especially since he's never won one.
I’m a big fan of Poch but I’m not sure he’s worth going all in for this summer whilst we have Solskjaer doing so well. Fair is fair. Solskjaer knows the club and the players and is earning it with great football and results.
Doesn't matter. If they aren't tough oppositions, then the 'great' Poch has lost to little old inferior Ole...
Also goalkeepers are a part of the team, if he makes a lot of saves it still doesn't mean we didn't deserve to win.
You know what ? You just informed me of that Palace tie
Our mentality is generally pretty good. We're far from a pushover, we go out and fight hard and numerous times have come back from poor situations where we've been written off. I don't see a lack of heart or desire in this side at all, in fact most Spurs fans would say that Pochettino has asserted an excellent mentality over the team.
We've not bottled that many favourable positions, off the top of my head I can think of a couple, most notably when leading against Juventus (you know, the team who also went 3-0 up at the Bernabau that same season) and a couple of cup games where we've been a goal up, but nothing major that doesn't happen to other sides, it's just when it is us it's always put down to bottling, if it is United the blame lies with a lack of quality. It's just the narrative people like to run with because it suits their narrow vision of things.
We bottled the titles vs Chelsea and Leicester despite always being the chaser, and bottled the title this season despite 99% of Spurs fans telling people we weren't quite good enough to challenge. It was just the media wanting to make the title chase more exciting and getting carried away. We're a top 4 side who can beat anybody on our day but lack the depth and quality in certain areas (fullbacks, midfield) to properly mount an attempt to win the league. Hence why we keep falling short. We've spent most of this season with Winks/Sissoko as our CM partnership.
It's not the managers fault Levy failed to invest a single penny in to the club in the summer, despite it clearly being needed. I was in the Spurs thread crying out for signings, it was obvious to anybody we needed them. Despite this we're sat in third in the league and through to the CL knockouts, yet because we're struggling with the worst injury crisis any club will have this season Pochettino is a bottler with a weak mentality? Man, I adore the knee jerk reaction of football fans. We're massively overachieving in our two main objectives so far this season considering the total lack of any investment, loads of United fans had us finishing outside the top 4 this season.
We've adapted to difficult situations in the past and will do so again. We scored a last minute winner vs Fulham after going behind, and forced Chelsea to penalties despite the spine of our side having been ripped out. That's about the limit of what we can achieve right now through sheer will, we're totally lacking in quality going forward. Today we faced a Palace side who beat City and without a Speroni error would have taken a point at least from Liverpool. Let's show them some respect, maybe?
Pochettino is a victim of his own success. Not so long ago finishing 2nd or 3rd with Spurs would be heralded by all as a massive success and unprecedented, but now he's established us there consistently people expect more, they expect a push for the title, despite the club itself refusing to back him in the market. Then people say 'oh he should have won a domestic cup', forgetting that we don't have a deep squad and are forced to prioritise certain competitions (this is the reality for any side in the league not backed by an oil tycoon or boasting ridiculous revenue streams) and with us the league will always be that priority because we need the money.
The faults mainly lie with the board not backing its manager. That's the problem, that is why we keep falling short. Beyond that yes, Pochettino is not perfect and is still a manager who is always learning and improving, in particular I do think he needs to be quicker to react tactically, and at times can be naive in his approach. He's not a 'bottler' though, or someone who is establishing a poor mentality at the club.
Yeah, no idea why you're bothering indeed given that both of those cnuts won something, unlike Poch.
Oh my god, he also lost to Nuno Santo, is he a better manager too? A one off league game doesn't mean either manager is superior.
Pochettino motivated the team brilliantly in the second half, and tactically we were very good. He did everything he could as a manager and we carved out chance after chance, there is nothing he can do about Harry Kane and Alli kicking it at De Gea's legs repeatedly. It wasn't just a case of you having a brilliant keeper, it was a case of our finishing being poor, and again you can't put that on the manager.
Ole 'won' because Rashford slots away with a cool head whereas our players have a shit day in terms of finishing. That's football, it's the way it goes. To claim off the back of that that Ole pulled off some tactical masterstroke or outmanoeuvred Poch is just ridiculous.
Still Poch then Ole for me. My doubt about Tuchel is him alienating some players at Dortmund.
I was replying to the other poster intimating that you guys aren't tough opposition. Supposedly that's the justification for his preference of Poch over Ole or whatever the point was he was trying to make.
Look, I don't care about Poch. I just don't think he fits us whether he's a great tactician or not. I think he should stay with you guys.
Look, I don't want to look disrespectful but that's a pretty long post to replay on the point I made. Conserve these kind of long posts when the discussion is really that heated to deserve it.
I usually do these when I'm arguing with someone not discussing a simple thing. For the moment put in mind I'm gonna read this and I'll have to put a long post too. 
All in all in most of your cups and CLs exit as well as getting out of league title you put yourself in a favorable position then go on and bottle it in the next game, like winning already in first half, having a pretty good result in first of 2 legs or putting yourself in the a favorable position to challenge then going on and losing and back to "we weren't challenging from the start anyway".
This only shows one thing considering your team is one of the best in the league when it comes to starting 11, that your team only wins and performs when absolutely no one is putting any kind of expectations on you to pass/win, then when you put yourself in a favorable position and media starts talking up about you as real contender you lose and get out. Happened so many times it's hard to knock it out now, almost every season at every cup exit, CL or league title. Your team simply can't perform under high expectations or big pressure. They crumble under it while on the contrary when no one is expecting anything from and expecting you to lose, zero pressure, you go and win.
This is a problem of your manager not being able to get your players playing under high pressure and high expectations. This reflects badly on him no matter how many times we argue about the squad or budget. Poch can't translate tough or big team mentality to his players, which is his own problem at this point.
For all the money we would be charged for Poch, OGS seems like a better option. Let him build his team and sign players to suit our style which I am sure he will do.
Not his fault that they only have 11 players.
Less than City, who they beat last month. If you've lost 3 of your best players and just got knocked out of a cup mid-week, Palace isnt the team I'd want to come up against.
Keep him away from the club.
He seems to look down on cup competitions and constantly talks down chances of winning . I don't want this defeatist attuide at the club.
He seems to look down on cup competitions and constantly talks down chances of winning . I don't want this defeatist attuide at the club.
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I would only give the job to Poch & him alone. If he wants to manage, Ole has to be number 2 also keeping the current Utd back room staff. If not we shouldn’t bother with Poch & stick it out with Ole. TBH atm we are seeing the dna of Utd under Ole & he is the embodiment of what we are about. There’s nobody else who would understand United hence why we’ve fallen below par since SAF retired.
I sincerely believe Moyes messed it up when he brought his own team. That continuation of Utd success was broken with Muelensteen & Phelan being shown the door. Otherwise it could’ve been different.
Thus the reason why Pool we’re quite successful in their heyday, it’s because they only changed the manager & not the back room staff. This made sure their dna wasn’t broken obviously until when the great SAF came along it all changed!
I sincerely believe Moyes messed it up when he brought his own team. That continuation of Utd success was broken with Muelensteen & Phelan being shown the door. Otherwise it could’ve been different.
Thus the reason why Pool we’re quite successful in their heyday, it’s because they only changed the manager & not the back room staff. This made sure their dna wasn’t broken obviously until when the great SAF came along it all changed!
Poch has clearly done better at Tottenham compared to any top six manager.
Compare wages/transfers spent to outcome.
I love Ole. Please let’s keep him. But Poch couldn’t have done more than he has overall.
Compare wages/transfers spent to outcome.
I love Ole. Please let’s keep him. But Poch couldn’t have done more than he has overall.
He looks down on FA cup anyway. If he came to United I wouldn't like that way of thinking.
Look, I don't want to look disrespectful but that's a pretty long post to replay on the point I made. Conserve these kind of long posts when the discussion is really that heated to deserve it.
All in all in most of your cups and CLs exit as well as getting out of league title you put yourself in a favorable position then go on and bottle it in the next game, like winning already in first half, having a pretty good result in first of 2 legs or putting yourself in the a favorable position to challenge then going on and losing and back to "we weren't challenging from the start anyway".
This only shows one thing considering your team is one of the best in the league when it comes to starting 11, that your team only wins and performs when absolutely no one is putting any kind of expectations on you to pass/win, then when you put yourself in a favorable position and media starts talking up about you as real contender you lose and get out. Happened so many times it's hard to knock it out now, almost every season at every cup exit, CL or league title. Your team simply can't perform under high expectations or big pressure. They crumble under it while on the contrary when no one is expecting anything from and expecting you to lose, zero pressure, you go and win.
This is a problem of your manager not being able to get your players playing under high pressure and high expectations. This reflects badly on him no matter how many times we argue about the squad or budget. Poch can't translate tough or big team mentality to his players, which is his own problem at this point.
It's not really a simple thing, I think the problem is that people would prefer a simplistic answer to why Pochettino hasn't won a trophy at Spurs. It's very easy to just say it's down to 'bottling' and that's all, no need for any genuine analysis of his situation at Spurs or the constraints he's under, because he's a bottler right? I don't think a discussion should need to be heated and Pochettino's work at Tottenham isn't something that can be summarised in a couple of lines, imo.
We've had 2 CL exits, one where we were just terrible in the group stages and clearly weren't ready yet, and another where we went out to one of Europe's best teams. Sure we led the tie, but Juventus have serious quality and an ability to do what they did to any team, they did it to Madrid in the second leg. We actually went 2-0 down and were sunk early, but fought back and got the lead, Juventus were just incredibly clinical and showed why they're considered an elite side, that's all. This season we were written off from making it to the CL knockouts but hey, we fought back and got there .. still bottlers right? We led United 1-0 in the cup and lost 2-1, but the year before Chelsea were the only side to take the lead, so where are all these exits where we've been clearly on top? We won the first leg vs Chelsea this season but had our spine torn out for the second leg, so hardly a surprise.
This is just the narrative you're running with. People don't say shit when we come good in pressure situations because it doesn't suit their agenda. In the CL we needed 6 points out of 6 from Inter and PSV and grabbed two late wins, then fought back to earn a point at the Nou Camp. The season before top 4 was under serious threat and we won 3-1 at Stamford Bridge for the first time in forever. We've had plenty of situations where the pressure has been on and we've come through, but nobody cares about these, just the couple of times we've lost when idiots talk about us contending for the title.
Look, you can put it down to our mentality or whatever, that's your choice. I just think that's a really lazy analysis that leaves no room whatsoever for discussion and is nothing more than a dull cliche. In my view, it's far more fruitful to look at what clubs have won league titles and cups, and how they've won it (by spending shit tons of money) and looking at what is missing at Spurs which has prevented us from taking that next step. My view is that Pochettino has seriously overachieved with us, done what nobody would have predicted when he took charge, and yet is getting criticised for not achieving miracles.
I don't think anyone is writing off Spurs? More that they are just, well, Spurs, and aren't going anywhere in particular - inert at a time when they have their best xi since the 80's and so many of the top clubs in England are going through a rocky patch - and it very much looks like the possibility is that they dwindle away rather than take any motions onward or upward from here.
Most of the caf seem to think Kane is the best striker in the world. Eriksen is rated as one of the top midfielders in the country; only City would turn their nose up at Son; Alli is highly rated, too and they have one of the best actual defensive units in the league and, ironically, the amount of time they've been together as a team with no reinforcement, gives them a level of synergy and understanding that only Klopp and Guardiola, by virtue of being given time to build their teams how they want, can match. A superb job it was, initially, but with the state of the other clubs, Spurs in third is right where they should be. Winning the league ism't likely without investment, but I don't think that's been held against Poch by many except in Leicester's campaign (the same time Wenger got slaughtered for the same thing) and whilst the downturn remains in place for Arsenal and even a resurgent United, top 4 qualification is seen as a given for Spurs.
His record in away games against top 6 opposition is being scrutinised more with each passing season; the way they go out of domestic cups, too - even if they're not going to field their best xi - it's not a surprise when they fold, which begs the question of can they only perform with their very best xi out there?
Spurs and Pochettino are both against the clock for differing reasons - is their crowning glory going to be fighting for 3rd, whilst other big clubs are discombobulated and having some of the most coveted players in the league at their disposal? Or should we be asking what happens from here or before Chelsea and United get their act together or Spurs start selling their star turns or(!) are beaten by father time as that backline becomes aged and fragile?