A serious discussion regarding the events in Cuba

WI_Red

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A good suggestion was made in the train wreck that was the "other" Cuba thread to start this.

To kick us off I think the decades long embargo by my country on Cuba is an evil crime against decency and humanity. Its continued existence is (another stain on our country). It is hard to view anything regarding Cuba, and it's relationship with the US, not through that lens.
 
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Rado_N said:
The thread has had the exact level of replies the title and OP deserved.
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Yes and my point is that level is the general forum level not the current events forum level.
entropy said:


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It's a divided country for sure. There are those who support the communist dictatorship which does have some significant positive achievements however the basic rights such as freedom of speech, political freedom and freedom of assembly are fundamental and should be defended everywhere. Having said that like Raoul said the most realistic and quickest way to directly help the majority of the cuban people would be to lift the blockage and economic sanctions.
 
Desert Eagle said:
It's a divided country for sure. There are those who support the communist dictatorship which does have some significant positive achievements however the basic rights such as freedom of speech, political freedom and freedom of assembly are fundamental and should be defended everywhere. Having said that like Raoul said the most realistic and quickest way to directly help the majority of the cuban people would be to lift the blockage and economic sanctions.
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I don’t think US intervention is what Cubans want. It is very telling that so much of msm here is discussing all sorts of air strikes, military intervention, etc all while conveniently ignoring the sanctions.
 
WI_Red said:
A good suggestion was made in the train wreck that was the "other" Cuba thread to start this.

To kick us off I think the decades long embargo by my country on Cuba is an evil crime against decency and humanity. Its continued existence is (another stain on our country). It is hard to view anything regarding Cuba, and it's relationship with the US, not through that lens.
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Thank you WI red and i'm sorry about all the unnecessary suffering your people have had to and continue to endure.

Yes the embargo is absolutely horrendous and disgusting. The biggest superpower in the world flexing it's power over an island of 12 million people. Hopefully Biden will pivot from the current Trump hardline approach and revert back to Obamas softline approach. I consider Obama a failure with most of his international relations decisions but i do think on Cuba and Iran he had the right idea. Correct me if i'm wrong though were the Obama years better?
 
Desert Eagle said:
Thank you WI red and i'm sorry about all the unnecessary suffering your people have had to and continue to endure.

Yes the embargo is absolutely horrendous and disgusting. The biggest superpower in the world flexing it's power over an island of 12 million people. Hopefully Biden will pivot from the current Trump hardline approach and revert back to Obamas softline approach. I consider Obama a failure with most of his international relations decisions but i do think on Cuba and Iran he had the right idea. Correct me if i'm wrong though were the Obama years better?
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So I think we have a misunderstanding. My country is the US and I am disgusted of our actions. Agree with the points you made.
 
nimic said:
Wisconsin isn't that bad, is it?

(He's American, not Cuban :angel:)
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My friend, once you get outside of Madison it just might be (obviously kidding....mostly). I would take most of Alabama over these pasty white, unseasoned beef eating, Q Anon loving, "christian", feckers.
 
Obama moved things in the right direction even though he didn’t get far enough with it.

Trump being Trump followed his sole motivation as POTUS and unwound the moves Obama had made.

The embargo is disgusting, sadly I don’t see Biden doing anything more then paying vague lip service.
 
entropy said:
I don’t think US intervention is what Cubans want. It is very telling that so much of msm here is discussing all sorts of air strikes, military intervention, etc all while conveniently ignoring the sanctions.
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That is a far left dream in authoritarian countries sometimes. Bring the foreign might over and that will help us defeat the corrupt army and military power structures. However as history has taught as those interventions rarely go to plan and what follows is often worse. It is very hard to heal such a divided country and it's going to be/has been a painful long process .
 
Rado_N said:
Obama moved things in the right direction even though he didn’t get far enough with it.

Trump being Trump followed his sole motivation as POTUS and unwound the moves Obama had made.

The embargo is disgusting, sadly I don’t see Biden doing anything more then paying vague lip service.
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I agree. As long as both sides pander for the Cuban vote in FL (which can swing the state) the embargo will never be lifted.
 
Rado_N said:
Obama moved things in the right direction even though he didn’t get far enough with it.

Trump being Trump followed his sole motivation as POTUS and unwound the moves Obama had made.

The embargo is disgusting, sadly I don’t see Biden doing anything more then paying vague lip service.
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I think Grampa Joe is a bit too old school to relax relationships with commies.
 
Raoul said:
It is yes. Cuba has been put under economic pressure by the US for decades, which has put undue pressure on its people. The US changing its policy would go a long way in actually liberalizing and modernizing Cuba, since it would inject insane amounts of tourism revenue onto the island, which would raise the standard of living for everyone.
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I think the recent protests are evidence that US changing policy towards Cuba has impacted Cuban society since part of the conditions for the Obama era talks were allowing internet on the island. Without the internet and social media, these protests don't happen. Ending the embargo, something I wrote an NIE about for a professor back in undergrad, would create numerous headaches for the Cuban regime.

One thing the US should do in the short term is send Cuba COVID-19 vaccines.
 
Desert Eagle said:
My bad lads. It's 3:30 am here, forgive my poor comprehension :angel: Still feel a little bad you're from Wisconsin though ;)
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No worries! @Scarlett Dracarys thought (hoped?) I was West Indian :), so you are in good company. As long as we have Ron Johnson (America's dumbest senator and a vaccine and insurrection denier) as a Senator everyone should feel bad for us. Can't wait to get out of this state....
 
WI_Red said:
A good suggestion was made in the train wreck that was the "other" Cuba thread to start this.

To kick us off I think the decades long embargo by my country on Cuba is an evil crime against decency and humanity. Its continued existence is (another stain on our country). It is hard to view anything regarding Cuba, and it's relationship with the US, not through that lens.
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Agreed on all counts.
 
Since the Treaty of Paris, which ceded Puerto Rico, the Philippines, Guam, and Cuba to the United States is when there's just a complete power struggle in Cuba. From governing instability and just no clear idea what to make of Cuba, to the willing people and labor unions of the Cuba to revolt...it's been a massive country of fluctuation.

The country's role in the Cuban Missle Crisis, Bay of Pigs before that...it's been a clusterfeck. The half century plus of embargos are pretty much punishment of Castro and Cuba's support of many conflicts around the world...supplying soldiers and weapons to armies who usually opposed the U.S.

Cuba is literally stuck in the 60s. Infrastructure, buildings, cars, etc. World War 3 was literally on the front door of the U.S. and it's clear the country and those in government for decades and decades have chosen to see Cuba continue to suffer and be so behind compared to other countries.
 
WI_Red said:
No worries! @Scarlett Dracarys thought (hoped?) I was West Indian :), so you are in good company. As long as we have Ron Johnson (America's dumbest senator and a vaccine and insurrection denier) as a Senator everyone should feel bad for us. Can't wait to get out of this state....
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Haha yep I get really excited when I think that a fellow West Indian is about. You should change your location to say "Not from the West Indies" :)
 
edcunited1878 said:
Since the Treaty of Paris, which ceded Puerto Rico, the Philippines, Guam, and Cuba to the United States is when there's just a complete power struggle in Cuba. From governing instability and just no clear idea what to make of Cuba, to the willing people and labor unions of the Cuba to revolt...it's been a massive country of fluctuation.

The country's role in the Cuban Missle Crisis, Bay of Pigs before that...it's been a clusterfeck. The half century plus of embargos are pretty much punishment of Castro and Cuba's support of many conflicts around the world...supplying soldiers and weapons to armies who usually opposed the U.S.

Cuba is literally stuck in the 60s. Infrastructure, buildings, cars, etc. World War 3 was literally on the front door of the U.S. and it's clear the country and those in government for decades and decades have chosen to see Cuba continue to suffer and be so behind compared to other countries.
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Beyond punishing Cuba this has now become a massive election issue. Florida turning blue would essentially lock the GOP out of the presidency. They know this and so do Dems and for this reason both side will forever be going after the not insignificant Cuban voting bloc in Florida.
 
The people have been deprived so many "basic" things that should be available to people in the 21st century. Many families and generations have been separated and discontented.

They just want to have the opportunity to have a better life and there are so many things out of their control to make it a possibility.
 
What's the official justification for the embargo given by the US government?
 
WI_Red said:
Beyond punishing Cuba this has now become a massive election issue. Florida turning blue would essentially lock the GOP out of the presidency. They know this and so do Dems and for this reason both side will forever be going after the not insignificant Cuban voting bloc in Florida.
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I totally agree. Innocent people who will never meet these officials are at their mercy.

You can come up with a great system that includes trade, business, infrastructure, Healthcare, etc where both countries can benefit from, but it's such a deeply politicized issue that should continue to be one huge stalemate at the expense of Cubans.
 
Raoul said:
It is yes. Cuba has been put under economic pressure by the US for decades, which has put undue pressure on its people. The US changing its policy would go a long way in actually liberalizing and modernizing Cuba, since it would inject insane amounts of tourism revenue onto the island, which would raise the standard of living for everyone.
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Good post
 
Rado_N said:


Credit @Olly Gunnar Solskjær
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Do things like this ever even work?

If the last 4 years in the US have taught us anything it is that, went confronted by an unpleasant truth, people will dig in more instead of changing course. Telling people that their suffering, which you are causing, is only happening because you don't like the way they are governed is asinine.

The US policy is essentially: "You live under a brutal, murderous dictator who will likely kill you and your family if you even think of revolting, but since you refuse to die trying we are going to make you living as bad as possible."

This makes no sense.
 
WI_Red said:
Do things like this ever even work?

If the last 4 years in the US have taught us anything it is that, went confronted by an unpleasant truth, people will dig in more instead of changing course. Telling people that their suffering, which you are causing, is only happening because you don't like the way they are governed is asinine.

The US policy is essentially: "You live under a brutal, murderous dictator who will likely kill you and your family if you even think of revolting, but since you refuse to die trying we are going to make you living as bad as possible."

This makes no sense.
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But they’ll shout “USA! Number One!” a lot and bamboozle everyone into thinking it’s true.
 
Rado_N said:
But they’ll shout “USA! Number One!” a lot and bamboozle everyone into thinking it’s true.
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we are reallllllllllly good at chanting "USA!USA!USA!USA!" over here.

As an aside, this is why I love US football fans. The most popular chant by the US supporters section is "I believe that we will win!" That statement is full of hope and positivity, but at the same time acknowledges that victory is not certain. Is there anything less stereotypically American than that? No wonder right wingers over here hate football (soccer).
 
WI_Red said:
we are reallllllllllly good at chanting "USA!USA!USA!USA!" over here.

As an aside, this is why I love US football fans. The most popular chant by the US supporters section is "I believe that we will win!" That statement is full of hope and positivity, but at the same time acknowledges that victory is not certain. Is there anything less stereotypically American than that? No wonder right wingers over here hate football (soccer).
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I remember the first time I saw a video of that chant in full swing.

I laughed a lot.
 
Thoughts on some of the explanations given here as to why the embargo hasn't been repealed yet? Do Cuban Floridians hold that much sway in voting?

Why do we still have an embargo? Because, unlike China, Cuban-Americans are the margin of victory in a major battleground state.
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WI_Red said:
Beyond punishing Cuba this has now become a massive election issue. Florida turning blue would essentially lock the GOP out of the presidency. They know this and so do Dems and for this reason both side will forever be going after the not insignificant Cuban voting bloc in Florida.
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This is what I was going to ask about: why are US-based Cubans so hell-bent on these sanctions? Cause the sanctions haven't undermined the Cuban regime at all and just impoverished the general population - and surely the sympathies of US-based Cubans are with the latter. It's not all just misinformation, is it? I mean, surely in Florida people with family in Cuba can get access to real information...

Thanks to @Raoul btw for closing the other thread and moving the good posts over. It's an interesting topic and the other thread wasn't going to work long-term.
 
Cheimoon said:
This is what I was going to ask about: why are US-based Cubans so hell-bent on these sanctions? Cause the sanctions haven't undermined the Cuban regime at all and just impoverished the general population - and surely the sympathies of US-based Cubans are with the latter. It's not all just misinformation, is it? I mean, surely in Florida people with family in Cuba can get access to real information...

Thanks to @Raoul btw for closing the other thread and moving the good posts over. It's an interesting topic and the other thread wasn't going to work long-term.
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This might sound unnuanced and harsh, but no.
 
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