4 X 100 Relay USA

[FresnoBob]

German or French is not a bloody race!

Which is what I have been saying all along. I didn't say that German or French is a race, I said that all three children from the same parents would be of the same race/ethnic group, regardless of where they were born. That they could then become citizens of different countries and claim different nationality is an unrelated matter you seem to have trouble comprehending.

Obviously, I wasn't impressed with your example about the three kids born in the East Zone, West Zone, and Austria, as it required either a couple to have triplets born in three different places or bring to term three pregnancies in a single calendar year. It also missed my arguments on nationality.

Here's an example to demonstrate my understanding of the issue:
Ibrahim decided the US needed a decent marthon runner, so he relocated from Addis Ababa to Boulder, Colorado where he married and signed on with Team Nike. Around the same time, Vijay and his wife moved from Delhi to a new job in the Silicon Valley. Paddy, meanwhile, got tired of things in County Mayo and moved to the suburbs of Chicago, where he married a nice girl of Irish ancestry.

Over time (5 years in the absence of special legislation to speed up the process), all three became US citizens and, as luck would have it, became fathers. Now, are the three kids of the same race? Of course not. Are they of the same nationality. As far as I, and the US are concerned, yes. Now, if you want to insist that Paddy's kid is actually an American citizen of Irish "nationality, I believe your understanding of nationality is skewed, or, more correctly, absolutely wrong.
Nationality, as I said previously, is a function of political and geographical factors, while race is biological.

 

[FresnoBob]

The relay was awesome and that was what the thread was about, Weaste just came on here to argue. I mean there is an anti-Olympic thread why not post his argument in there.

Alex--if there is a thread about religion, some people feel a need to post threads attacking religion. If a thread can be viewed as "nationalistic," no matter how difficult to shoehorn the concept in, people will come on to attack that. Personally, I didn't see the nationalism in the post. We witnessed one of the greatest swimming relay races of all time and it was a proper subject for a thread. Sorry I assisted in hijacking it to other purposes.

 

[Alex]

Phelps won another

 

[Alex]

Americans go 1-2 in the hondo back

 

[CasaStreets]

so weaste, in the hundred back after the Americans finished one and two, they said in the interview that they were just looking to finish top two in whatever order. Obviously not true but the gesture shows exactly how the spirit of the olympics has changed to become more nationality based.

 

[Alex]

Well said Casa, Weaste is just bitter about something for some reason or another

 

[Red Dreams]

was away a couple of days....interesting posts...

to answer Weaste and others who think this is just 'flag waving'...heck that was the furthest reason for the thread...I expected Team America to come in second in this...and Lesak's swim was absolutely unbelievable.....sure I was rooting for Phelps and his teammates...I just want to see him break Spitz's record...which I remember watching..in 72 I think....that was magnificent.....but also a time when American swimmers (the men)seemed to have a monopoly in the pool...to do 8 golds now...well that will well shadow waht Spitz did...

I was fortunate to see this relay win....and imo one of the greatest come form behind wins ever....was hoarse shouting...

As an American I always want to see America do well...not to the detriment of other nations....sure these are individual events.....but hey they do play the national anthem and such....and most people in all probability do back athletes from their home nations...still I enjoy the swim-sprint events and the Track and field sprint events...that pretty much is the Olympics for me....I love to see records being broken no matter who....

to answer Weaste's point that there is no such thing as an American...well I find it hard to understand where you are going with this....

I think i can say that we as American are proud of what America stands for as a nation...heck I can go on about our Constitution and all the great things we have done as a country..yeah yeah...you can roll out things we have done that we regret....the thing is just on this board there are many of us from different political spectrum but still feel the affinity of fellow Americans...as much as we may argue with each other.... we do see ourselves as citizens of one country....so no matter how much you want to argue otherwise, the fact we millions of Americans see ourselves as being part of one country makes whatever you or others say irrelevant....

If the point you are making is the thread was 'Nationalistic' you are bloody wrong! btw the comment about the french was my irritation with the french swimmers shooting their mouth off instead winning the fecking thing first...it is They who were being Nationalistic...

Phelps and the guys handled themselves extremely well....doing the job....

 

[Paddy]

so weaste, in the hundred back after the Americans finished one and two, they said in the interview that they were just looking to finish top two in whatever order. Obviously not true but the gesture shows exactly how the spirit of the olympics has changed to become more nationality based.

Not quite. Wanting your team mate to come second if you come first is not Patriotism, its hoping your friend does well. Simple as that. A US citizen sitting on their couch saying all they want is a 1-2 finish would be an example of what you're talking about, the athletes themselves saying it is different.

 

[Paddy]

Whilst I think weaste's views aren't totally in line with my own, so to speak, I can at least recognise he's trying to argue the point properly, as are others.

The real idiots in here are the ones writing childish one liners and posting picture and smiley responses because, I suppose, they feel that they're "too good" to be engaging in this debate. I mean, what's the point, when the other side are clearly wrong?

Agree with the Count here, Weaste has a point that even those who disagree with him should admit is at least arguable, its not unequivocally wrong otherwise someone would have come up with proof one way or the other. The fact that most in this thread aren't really understanding what he means has made for a very repetitive 6 pages of argument.

 

[Paddy]

Over time (5 years in the absence of special legislation to speed up the process), all three became US citizens and, as luck would have it, became fathers. Now, are the three kids of the same race? Of course not. Are they of the same nationality. As far as I, and the US are concerned, yes. Now, if you want to insist that Paddy's kid is actually an American citizen of Irish "nationality, I believe your understanding of nationality is skewed, or, more correctly, absolutely wrong.
Nationality, as I said previously, is a function of political and geographical factors, while race is biological.

The meaning of race and nationality are difficult to define as many people have different understandings of them. The easiest part of the question to work out is the citizenship part, so obviously all the kids have the right to US citizenship.

Nationality is far more complex. If you take this Wikipedia definition of nationality as an example:

Generally, nationality is established at birth by a child's place of birth (jus soli) and/or bloodline (jus sanguinis).

Just from that you can see why it is a grey area for people. 'Paddy's kid' that you mention in your story could easily apply for Irish citizenship or an Irish passport, and a lot of people with that sort of background in both the US and UK describe themselves as Irish, so clearly it is not just Weaste that believes the child would be of Irish nationality.

 

[KeyserSoze]

The fact that most in this thread aren't really understanding what he means has made for a very repetitive 6 pages of argument.

Dont agree with that.

The majority understand what Weaste was talking about and agreed with parts of what he said. There was just other parts on which they did not or wanted clarification on, the last part of what Count said is essentially towards Alex.

 

[Paddy]

Dont agree with that.

The majority understand what Weaste was talking about and agreed with parts of what he said. There was just other parts on which they did not or wanted clarification on, the last part of what Count said is essentially towards Alex.

I understand he was talking about Alex in that part, I should probably have just quoted the first section of his post. I was making a seperate point that the likes of reddevil2 dont seem to follow Weaste's line of reasoning at all and that has made the back and forth very repetitive. Those that did understand what he was saying like CasaStreets or FresnoBob made more reasoned arguments which was what Count referred to when he said "I can at least recognise he's trying to argue the point properly, as are others."

 

[Alex]

Not quite. Wanting your team mate to come second if you come first is not Patriotism, its hoping your friend does well. Simple as that. A US citizen sitting on their couch saying all they want is a 1-2 finish would be an example of what you're talking about, the athletes themselves saying it is different.

Yeah Piersol and Grevers are automatically friends because they are from the same country, yeah that makes sense

 

[redevil2]

I understand he was talking about Alex in that part, I should probably have just quoted the first section of his post. I was making a seperate point that the likes of reddevil2 dont seem to follow Weaste's line of reasoning at all and that has made the back and forth very repetitive. Those that did understand what he was saying like CasaStreets or FresnoBob made more reasoned arguments which was what Count referred to when he said "I can at least recognise he's trying to argue the point properly, as are others."

You are trying to complicate things, by making anaylsis. What he was actually arguing about is put it simply he did not like the idea of supporting a passport! The rest of his argument was just trying to justify his dislike being a legitimate dislike.

Human evolve and the definition of what nation and what country is about have changed (different from the original sense) and to make an argument about the current state of affairs, that people are only supporting those who hold the same passport, not because they are supporting people of the same race, is neither here nor there. Because it is the current 'system'. You acquire your passport when you go through certain legal process, and become part of that group (holding the same kind of passport)

In short his argument is irrelevant because he wanted to show that the Olympic Games is not about countries competing among themselves but is a Game for individuals to compete for personal glory, and hence supporters waving flags to support those who hold the same passport is silly (or stupid as he put it)

I disagree because no matter how he did not like the idea of people supporting those who hold the same passport as them, the idea of the Olympic Games is still about country competing with country, and whether he likes what amounts to country is irrelevant in the whole argument. People support the athletes who wear the shirt bearing the logo of their passport, that's what they are supporting. The Athletes themselves wear the shirts bearing those logo to compete on their behalf, and having the knowledge of those supporters supporting them give them the edge to perform the highest.

What don't you understand? The key word is 'irrelevancy'

His dislike doesn't change the spirit of the Games!

 

[CasaStreets]

Not quite. Wanting your team mate to come second if you come first is not Patriotism, its hoping your friend does well. Simple as that.

Actually, you can't really say that definitively as you don't know the two athletes. I have heard several other references of patriotism, especially in men's gymnastics from the Americans who commonly gesture to the camera and talk in purely patriotic terms. The talk about supporting and winning for the US more than specifically referencing one another. Talking to the camera about it is the most obvious show of patriotism, wanting folks back home to see.