So he's tried his best Conte impression, who's he going to emulate next? Moyeseh? Giggseh?
3-5-2 formation this season for United?
- Thread starter Classical Mechanic
- Start date
Well that lasted long.
Shouldn’t have dropped it so early. Just ended up in the same 4231 that got us into this mess in the first place.
Got a goal out of a moment of brilliance but the general shape is diabolical again in this second half.
Ole lacked the conviction to commit to it. Just weak management.
Got a goal out of a moment of brilliance but the general shape is diabolical again in this second half.
Ole lacked the conviction to commit to it. Just weak management.
He's just reverted to 3-5-2 because that's what a manager is meant to do when he's under pressure. He has no clue how to actually play this formation.
It wasn't looking so hot tonight when we did have it.
I think it comes back to what many thought - it's not necessarily a long term solution unless we have the right players and drill for it. Same as any formation really.
It has its own weaknesses. Against a similar setup you could see they had more experience in it. Also it can make us quite predictable with not much going on out wide.
I'm okay with seeing it but I really do think it depends on the opposition.
I think it comes back to what many thought - it's not necessarily a long term solution unless we have the right players and drill for it. Same as any formation really.
It has its own weaknesses. Against a similar setup you could see they had more experience in it. Also it can make us quite predictable with not much going on out wide.
I'm okay with seeing it but I really do think it depends on the opposition.
Not really a fair night to judge when Pogba puts in the worst midfield performance I have ever seen.
————————————DDG—————————————
————Bailly————Varane————Lindelof————
AWB———McT———-Bruno———Donny———Shaw
————————Ronaldo——Cavani—————————
————Bailly————Varane————Lindelof————
AWB———McT———-Bruno———Donny———Shaw
————————Ronaldo——Cavani—————————
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Shaw and AWB are useless going forward, what's the point in having Telles and Dalot if you your not going to use them in a formation that suits them.
I think we need another defender in there
De Gea
AWB -- Bailly -- Lindelof -- Varane -- Maguire -- Shaw
--------------------Fred -- McTominay
------------------------Bruno
--------------------- Ronaldo
De Gea
AWB -- Bailly -- Lindelof -- Varane -- Maguire -- Shaw
--------------------Fred -- McTominay
------------------------Bruno
--------------------- Ronaldo
I think a big difference tonight was that Pogba was flouncing around in front of the three and repeatedly giving the ball away. I’d personally stick with it- maybe put Shaw with Bailly and Maguire and have Telles on the left. I’d also give DVB a go with Fred
We can't defend as a team. Constantly leaving space, dropping too deep, no organized pressing. Changing formations is not going to solve that.
We've been outplayed by feckin Atalanta.
We've been outplayed by feckin Atalanta.
Well Sir Matt's 4-2-4 formation has failed an so did Conte's 3-5-2 formation. There's we're left with SAF's 4-4-2 formation
Agreed. He was dreadful tonight. Pogba just can’t play in a midfield 2 IMO. He needs freedom further up the pitch to see the best of him.
Not sure why anyone expected that to work against anyone other than Tottenham.
It only worked against them because they didn't actually try to do anything.
It only worked against them because they didn't actually try to do anything.
To be honest at this moment it looks like he has no clue to play any formation
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With the obsession of more defenders, lack of real wingers, and a functional midfield, it's only the matter time we see this variety of 4-4-2.
It's not a system problem is a coaching problem, no set up will work until the players are properly coached on how to execute it.
Some here talk about turning to 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 as if doing that alone would improve us somehow.
Until we get a proper manager we will keep seeing the same shitty performances with an odd result here and there, the same rollercoaster performances we've seen for the last 3 years no matter what's the formation.
Some here talk about turning to 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 as if doing that alone would improve us somehow.
Until we get a proper manager we will keep seeing the same shitty performances with an odd result here and there, the same rollercoaster performances we've seen for the last 3 years no matter what's the formation.
It''s also in fashion, can't forget that
I suppose the most troubling thing about this recent system change is what it says about Ole and the coaching staff.
From their perspective what United needed was a change of formation. The 4-2-3-1 wasn't working, therefore, it must be the formation that's the issue. This is the kind of surface level self-analysis that tries to treat the symptom rather than the cause.
At no point of the course of self-examination have the coaching team internalised their criticism. On the contrary, Ole has doubled-up on the compliments to his coaching staff on the back of a few years of these kind of performances. Instead of determining why these group of elite players are unable to make a 4-2-3-1 look anywhere near fluid from a coaching and tactical perspective, they've run with the notion that the coaching has been exceptional.
So now what? Ole has purchased players with a 4-2-3-1 in mind, and one at 70m, and with relatively few minutes played on the field he's gone gung-ho into a system which further maligns the player he spent two summers chasing. So, rather than analyse the coaching performance of the staff and evaluate how to fix the 4-2-3-1 issues in order to accommodate the vast array of offensive talent in the squad, he's flipped to a system which guarantees that Rashford and Mason (not to mention Sancho) get fewer minutes in favour of the very short-term solution of accommodating Cavani and Ronaldo, which in all likelihood will only last until the end of the season.
You get the feeling that Ole is looking at Tuchel post-Lampard and saying, "That change worked", without realising that Tuchel know how to make that work in the defensive transition to stop counters, how to make that work in the offensive transition to generate numerical advantage on the break, how to make that work in terms of player movement on and off the ball in different phases of the field to create space, overloads, passing angles and all manner of tactical buzzwords. Tuchel puts in the hard work, the hard detailed thinking that makes a system like that function fluidly, and he's able to communicate that effectively and clearly. Ole, by comparison, as heard in his interviews, bemoans the concept of overcomplicating football, as if coaching in fine detail is some exercise in futility. I feel as long as Ole has this reductionist view of the game at the elite level, he'll accept lower standards not only for himself, but for his staff.
From their perspective what United needed was a change of formation. The 4-2-3-1 wasn't working, therefore, it must be the formation that's the issue. This is the kind of surface level self-analysis that tries to treat the symptom rather than the cause.
At no point of the course of self-examination have the coaching team internalised their criticism. On the contrary, Ole has doubled-up on the compliments to his coaching staff on the back of a few years of these kind of performances. Instead of determining why these group of elite players are unable to make a 4-2-3-1 look anywhere near fluid from a coaching and tactical perspective, they've run with the notion that the coaching has been exceptional.
So now what? Ole has purchased players with a 4-2-3-1 in mind, and one at 70m, and with relatively few minutes played on the field he's gone gung-ho into a system which further maligns the player he spent two summers chasing. So, rather than analyse the coaching performance of the staff and evaluate how to fix the 4-2-3-1 issues in order to accommodate the vast array of offensive talent in the squad, he's flipped to a system which guarantees that Rashford and Mason (not to mention Sancho) get fewer minutes in favour of the very short-term solution of accommodating Cavani and Ronaldo, which in all likelihood will only last until the end of the season.
You get the feeling that Ole is looking at Tuchel post-Lampard and saying, "That change worked", without realising that Tuchel know how to make that work in the defensive transition to stop counters, how to make that work in the offensive transition to generate numerical advantage on the break, how to make that work in terms of player movement on and off the ball in different phases of the field to create space, overloads, passing angles and all manner of tactical buzzwords. Tuchel puts in the hard work, the hard detailed thinking that makes a system like that function fluidly, and he's able to communicate that effectively and clearly. Ole, by comparison, as heard in his interviews, bemoans the concept of overcomplicating football, as if coaching in fine detail is some exercise in futility. I feel as long as Ole has this reductionist view of the game at the elite level, he'll accept lower standards not only for himself, but for his staff.
The problem is who do you rotate?
Ronaldo isn’t going to get rotated. whatever you think of Ronaldo and Ole, the level of drama and disruption if you leave out Ronaldo is Crazy.
So there is is basically 1 attacking place to get rotated, between Cavani, Greenwood Rashford and Martial. And there isn’t even a position for Sancho in 5212 or352 what ever you want to call it.
If you go 343 yeah you can get in more attackers but you will have no creativity as neither Pogba (as we saw clearly again last night) or Bruno can play there, so you have a mixture of Mcfred with the odd bit off Matic.
And there isn’t really much depth in defence to rotate.
Problem is we have far to many attackers that don’t fit togther very well. And the midfield and defence isn’t good enough to compensate. And we have average manger whose tactical knowledge and work in the trading ground isn’t good enough to compensate.
Question, what was the last great great team that played 3 at the back and dominated?
Last 10+ years we've seen the best teams playing back 4, apart from a few title wins in Italy and Conte's Chelsea all domestic wins in Spain and England and i think ali European titles in past 10 years have been with a back 4.
That personally for me causes a feeling of mistrust towards that style of setting up and I don't want a 3-5-2 or 3-4-3 coach to manage us...
Last 10+ years we've seen the best teams playing back 4, apart from a few title wins in Italy and Conte's Chelsea all domestic wins in Spain and England and i think ali European titles in past 10 years have been with a back 4.
That personally for me causes a feeling of mistrust towards that style of setting up and I don't want a 3-5-2 or 3-4-3 coach to manage us...
Chelsea won the CL while playing a 3-4-3 this year tbf.
Okey but that was also a tad bit flukey, we'll see if they can reach top 4 in UCL and challenge/win EPL this year with it.
Even if they do they'd be an odd one in a pattern
The Atalanta game wasn’t even 352/3412, it was 343 but when we were defending it switched to 541. Terrible coaching imo because both Rashford and Bruno looked very lost in that 343/541 set up.
It was sort of a lopsided 2, with Rashford left and Ronaldo central. Bruno played ACM.
Before the enforced substitution, we effectively had no right side of attack, which has been our biggest problem for years. I thought the Sancho signing was finally going to address this, but evidently we signed him as third or fourth choice LW and not as first choice RW.
It’s like an alcoholic mate, for it to change he needs to start with “Hi I’m Ole and my staff and I are seriously useless at coaching. Furthermore we like to persist with crap performing players like Maguire, Mctominay and Fred and marginalize other”
Can Rodgers 4-1-4-1 work for the players we have ?
GK
Back line
Matic/Mct
Sancho - Bruno - Fred - Greenwood/ Rashford
CR
GK
Back line
Matic/Mct
Sancho - Bruno - Fred - Greenwood/ Rashford
CR
That’s the one for me. When we signed Sancho, Varane and Ronaldo and still got played off the pitch by Wolves…..that was the minute all hope faded.
Excellent post. Well said.
Great great post. It's exactly what I feel about the 352 and how it was ditched the minutes Varane got injured.
Things are just done randomly without serious process behind it. You don't see many top teams changing their formation just like that
I've yet to see another manager ditching not 1 but 2 biggest summer signing weeks after the club had signed them. It simply doesn't happen.
This is your first great post.
Seriously though, that’s one more than me at least
it’s an excellent post and really does highlight the issues with a manager that thinks a single player or formation is the solution.I remember when we played the diamond against Psg and we beat them then I think the next week we tried it again against Arsenal and got outplayed and lost. Never saw the diamond since then.
Regardless of formation, I’m not sure I have ever seen a supposed top team with so many defensive minded players be so easily played through...even with a back four and McFred...we look so clueless.
We were excellent against PSG, didn’t we start with 3 at the back and then switch to the diamond and then dominate? Probably one of Ole’s best games as manager.
To be fair we destroyed Arsenal but missed chance after chance after chance.
This is your first great post.
Seriously though, that’s one more than me at least
Man, I appreciate the sentiment, what can I say? You shoot with an uzi and you'll hit with a stray.
Man, I appreciate the sentiment, what can I say? You shoot with an uzi and you'll hit with a stray.
Remember when Moyes played a 3 man midfield against City and we all drooled about it. In reality he just changed the formation and we still got rubbed 3-0.
All he did was adding Fellaini in a midfield role without actually telling how to approach the game after changing the formation.