3-5-2 formation this season for United?

[Lentwood]

The problem is, it's becoming obvious that our most effective XI/formation doesn't include Rashford, Pogba, Martial, Greenwood, Sancho or vdB. That's a hell of a lot of cash spent and talent wasted for six players who can't get into the side.

You have to question the manager with regard WHY we can't find a formation that suits some of these players, but you also have to question the recruitment and planning when we have so much talent wasted whilst being light in other areas

 

[justsomebloke]

The problem is and has never been formation. It’s the tactics and structure within those formations. We haven’t even been playing two defensive midfielders like people claim. Fred and McTominay or whichever other combo have played have both had license to get forward. It’s been two box to box midfielders rather than a double pivot.

Yes of course it's not just the formation, but equally the formation represents the basic structure of the setup and is not nothing.

I also never could work out why so many people thought McFred=2 defensive midfielders until I watched my son play FIFA21, and noticed they are both listed as "DM". I must admit I'm cynical enough to suspect that plays into it.

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

Imagine signing a young exciting attacking sensation like Sancho and playing him at wing back though. Jose would be proud

Sancho played in 3-5-2 (3-4-2-1) formation with BvB under Favre, as an AM behind Halaand, so for example for us it would be: -

Dea Gea

Lindelof Varane Maguire

AWB McTominay Fred Shaw

Sancho Fernandes

Ronaldo

​

 

[justsomebloke]

I hate the 3-5-2 formation, just a personal thing, for me, I hate seeing a team fielding 3 CBs at the back plus 2 FBs/WBs, I understand that 3-5-2 formation is not a defensive or an attacking formation (formations do not determine the tactical approach) but i still don't like it.

of course if it works for us this season, I am all up for it.

This is a good point. A 343/352 is not necessarily a formation you use for defensive football. Chelsea is a case in point - they dominate games, score goals and often have more than 60% posession. But, they do that by playing a very high line, always keeping a tight shape, and pressing intensively and well all over the pitch. If you play it the way we do - line not that high, posture not that compact, dropping relatively low when without the ball - that is definitely not a formation for control, never mind for attacking football. That is much more a reactive formation. Which suits us in many ways, but it's not a way of playing if you're even contesting dominance of the game. And if you're playing an opponent who is equally happy to be reactive.....

 

[justsomebloke]

Sancho played in 3-5-2 (3-4-2-1) formation with BvB under Favre, as an AM behind Halaand, so for example for us it would be: -

Dea Gea

Lindelof Varane Maguire

AWB McTominay Fred Shaw

Sancho Fernandes

Ronaldo

​

Okay. But then he's directly competing with Pogba for a spot, and keeping Rashford, Cavani and Greenwood out of the lineup. And Ronaldo is operating alone on top.

That's basically Chelsea. Only without the pressing and the high line. Or offensively adept wing backs. Or good all-rounders in the central pivot. So why would such a team be as good as Chelsea? And if they're not, what are we doing?

 

[noodlehair]

We obviously can't use this formation for most games as we'd have to pick Fred and McTominay basically every game and leave about 6 very good forwards on the bench. It worked against Spurs but it wouldn't against most sides. This is exactly why we should have singed a midfielder.

 

[devilish]

Why would we play Rashford behind anyone? The whole point of playing Rashford is that he's a constant lethal threat to the space behind the opposition line, much more so than either Ronaldo or Cavani - which means he really needs to be our most forward player when we have the ball.

Cavani/Ronaldo are better finishers then Rashy. They also can't be expected to drop deep and run tin the box as Rashford can. In my opinion we should slowly transition to a 3-5-2 system with Rashford, Greenwood or Sancho upfront. When defending they can drop on the flanks to help out only to swiftly join the forward line once we are attacking

 

[justsomebloke]

Cavani/Ronaldo are better finishers then Rashy. They also can't be expected to drop deep and run tin the box as Rashford can. In my opinion we should slowly transition to a 3-5-2 system with Rashford, Greenwood or Sancho upfront. When defending they can drop on the flanks to help out only to swiftly join the forward line once we are attacking

Not the point. The point is Rashford's biggest forte is his ability to make runs in behind the opposition line. If he's not positioned to do that, he is a much much less effective player. So why would you use him as one of only three attackers, only to put him in a role where he can't use his main forte? That makes no sense.

 

[Ixion]

Not the point. The point is Rashford's biggest forte is his ability to make runs in behind the opposition line. If he's not positioned to do that, he is a much much less effective player. So why would you use him as one of only three attackers, only to put him in a role where he can't use his main forte? That makes no sense.

Seems to missed by many how many times Rashford gets in behind because of his pace and movement and how little it happened while he was out injured. It is like why Andy Cole was preferred to Solskjaer, Ole may have been the better finisher but Cole got more chances.

 

[dutchred]

Dea Gea

Lindelof Varane Shaw

AWB McTominay vd Beek Telles

Sancho Fernandes

Ronaldo

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

Okay. But then he's directly competing with Pogba for a spot, and keeping Rashford, Cavani and Greenwood out of the lineup. And Ronaldo is operating alone on top.

That's basically Chelsea. Only without the pressing and the high line. Or offensively adept wing backs. Or good all-rounders in the central pivot. So why would such a team be as good as Chelsea? And if they're not, what are we doing?

My point was only about if Sancho can play in 352 formation, which is yes he can, because he did it a BvB, not about what are the consequences of it or how it impacts other players in the squad.

And I said it earlier, I hate the 352 formation.

 

[justsomebloke]

My point was only about if Sancho can play in 352 formation, which is yes he can, because he did it a BvB, not about what are the consequences of it or how it impacts other players in the squad.

And I said it earlier, I hate the 352 formation.

Sure, just pointing out the additional ramifications of that.

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

Sure, just pointing out the additional ramifications of that.

Agreed on the ramifications, hence why I hate it even more for us.

 

[Swiss_Red89]

It will be interesting to see which Formation Ole uses tomorrow vs Atalanta. In my opinion the 3-5-2 formation is not an Option as a permanent formation for the reminder of the season.
Ok in the big games it will be fine. But vs lesser Oposition we have to find a way to be more compact without leaving the majority of our talented offensive players on the bench.

It would be laughable imo if we constantly have to leave out Sancho, Greenwood, Rashford, Pogba only to play McFred/Matic, Lindelof, Maguire together.

Rashford for example was in shit form in the second part of the season but played every game. Now that he seems to be in the best shape for a long time we can't fit him in in our best formation? This would be typical ManUnited, makes no sense...Same for Greenwood and Sancho, who cost quite a bit.

Of course there will be rotation as Cavani/Ronaldo can't play every game. But Ole either plays a more offensive 3-5-2 or 3-4-3 vs lesser oposition such as:

AWB Maguire Varane
Sancho Fred Bruno Shaw
Ronaldo Cavani Rashford

Or we have to go back to a back 4 imo.

I loved the win vs Tottenham, but it can't be the way forward to play 7 defensive minded outfield players regularly.

 

[justsomebloke]

It will be interesting to see which Formation Ole uses tomorrow vs Atalanta. In my opinion the 3-5-2 formation is not an Option as a permanent formation for the reminder of the season.
Ok in the big games it will be fine. But vs lesser Oposition we have to find a way to be more compact without leaving the majority of our talented offensive players on the bench.

It would be laughable imo that if we constantly have to leave out Sancho, Greenwood, Rashford, Pogba only to play McFred, Matic, Lindelof together.

Rashford for example was in shit form in the second part of the season but played every game. Now that he seems to be in the best shape for a long time we can't fit him in in our best formation? Same for Greenwood.

Of course there will be rotation as Cavani/Ronaldo can't play every game. But Ole either plays a more offensive 3-5-2 or 3-4-3 vs lesser oposition such as:

AWB Maguire Varane
Sancho Fred Bruno Shaw
Ronaldo Cavani Rashford

Or we have to go back to a back 4 imo.

I loved the win vs Tottenham, but it can't be the way forward to play 7 defensive minded players regularly.

I'd be extremely surprised if we don't see this tomorrow against Atalanta, and it may very well be a good choice for that particular game.

My main gripe with it is I don't see that it allows us to make the most of our squad, and I also don't see that it represents a path to evolve into a top team, given the players we have and the approach with which we implement it. If you want to dominate with it, you have to win the ball back a lot, and you also need top quality at wing back and at central midfield, which we do not have.

The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that this should be a season of shifting formations and starting XIs. But doubtful that OGS will feel confident enough to take that route. So I predict against hope that we'll stick with 3412 and a largely stable starting XI until that crashes and burns.

Or until OGS is replaced.

 

[Jericho]

The problem is, it's becoming obvious that our most effective XI/formation doesn't include Rashford, Pogba, Martial, Greenwood, Sancho or vdB. That's a hell of a lot of cash spent and talent wasted for six players who can't get into the side.

You have to question the manager with regard WHY we can't find a formation that suits some of these players, but you also have to question the recruitment and planning when we have so much talent wasted whilst being light in other areas

Pogba is gone at the end of the season, Martial has been given more than enough chances and VdB never got going. So that leaves Rashford, Greenwood and Sancho. Rashford and Greenwood should at least get rotated with Cavani. Sancho I'm not sure. I worry that we're going to mess up his development.

 

[RUCK4444]

Yes of course it's not just the formation, but equally the formation represents the basic structure of the setup and is not nothing.

I also never could work out why so many people thought McFred=2 defensive midfielders until I watched my son play FIFA21, and noticed they are both listed as "DM". I must admit I'm cynical enough to suspect that plays into it.

On the bolded. You can change their position to anything within the midfield, your lad could have them as CAM’s if he wanted.

 

[NoLogo]

We obviously can't use this formation for most games as we'd have to pick Fred and McTominay basically every game and leave about 6 very good forwards on the bench. It worked against Spurs but it wouldn't against most sides. This is exactly why we should have singed a midfielder.

I think this is a misconception though that you have to pick certain players because, well they are good. The balance of the team has to always come first. In fact we have an awful build squad which is in large parts the reason why we have now been struggling for ages years now. Rashford, Greenwood, Martial, Ronaldo, Cavani are all essentially strikers, some of them can play in wider positions but their instinct is all first and foremost to score themselves. Letting out Sancho admittedly is something that irks me, since he is the so long needed creative input from a wide position. That he isn't in the best form of his life right now and is struggling a bit is true, but he won't overcome it by being benched because we play a formation in which there is no room for him.

When it comes to the midfield, it is what it is right now, and we probably won't be able to do something about it until next summer, so we need to find a way to get a balanced team out there and if that means to play on the counter for now, so be it. But what we can't keep doing is playing 4 strikers, do horrible gap exposing pressing and be confused about why we get slaughtered.

 

[justsomebloke]

On the bolded. You can change their position to anything within the midfield, your lad could have them as CAM’s if he wanted.

Don't know anything about that, but my point was just that if FIFA lists them as DM, I thought that might be a reason quite a lot of people think that's what they are. I don't think my son changed their position definition to DM.

 

[Lentwood]

Pogba is gone at the end of the season, Martial has been given more than enough chances and VdB never got going. So that leaves Rashford, Greenwood and Sancho. Rashford and Greenwood should at least get rotated with Cavani. Sancho I'm not sure. I worry that we're going to mess up his development.

Yeah, I agree on Pogba, Martial and vdB, but whichever way you look at it, it's still a massive waste. Those three players cost us about £170m and you could argue we have never yet determined what their best positions are, let alone found a formation or style that suits them.

Personally, I think the way to work Sancho and Rashford in is to play 3-5-2 in games we expect to win (i.e. home games or weaker teams away from home). You would ask them to play as orthodox wingers, so they are primarily in the team to attack, but must also be aware of their responsibilities for tracking-back when they have to - which shouldn't be that often against low-block sides.

Against the better sides, and tough away games, we go with Shaw and AWB as the wing-backs, in a 5-3-2.

 

[Bilbo]

The problem is, it's becoming obvious that our most effective XI/formation doesn't include Rashford, Pogba, Martial, Greenwood, Sancho or vdB. That's a hell of a lot of cash spent and talent wasted for six players who can't get into the side.

You have to question the manager with regard WHY we can't find a formation that suits some of these players, but you also have to question the recruitment and planning when we have so much talent wasted whilst being light in other areas

This isn't necessarily the case. I could see this formation potentially suiting almost every player in our squad.

Our issue with Rashford & Greenwood in attack, and Pogba in midfield, is their defensive contribution. This system reduces our exposure to that. The only one that may have an issue is Sancho, but I think he should be used as a number 10 anyway so in theory he is now competing with Bruno.

 

[laughtersassassin]

If we are playing 352 or 343 Conte should be our manager. Simple as that.

Ole spent years building an attack heavy squad. So if to win he needs to drop all his attackers then it is pretty much case closed that he has any idea what he is doing at all.

The money wasted would be unfathomable.

The club is very naïve. This season we will fade into our mediocrity relative to our squad strength

 

[charlenefan]

The problem is, it's becoming obvious that our most effective XI/formation doesn't include Rashford, Pogba, Martial, Greenwood, Sancho or vdB. That's a hell of a lot of cash spent and talent wasted for six players who can't get into the side.

You have to question the manager with regard WHY we can't find a formation that suits some of these players, but you also have to question the recruitment and planning when we have so much talent wasted whilst being light in other areas

Is it? For some reason we've still yet to see an XI where we have our best LW (Rashford) and our best RW (Sancho) on the pitch together

 

[glazed]

The problem was that having discovered our weak spot in midfield every team could just rinse and repeat the same tactic to score a goal. Basically overload McFred and attack the deep sitting defence .

Now they will have to find a different way through.

Ole spent years building an attack heavy squad. So if to win he needs to drop all his attackers then it is pretty much case closed that he has any idea what he is doing at all.

It is pure comedy. I still think we bought Sancho because he ticked boxes on a spreadsheet (young, end of contract, English, exciting attacker) not because it was what we needed. I doubt Ole is Mr Spreadsheet but I know a guy who is....

 

[Bobade]

Is it stupid (and ironic, given our fixation on the past, history, United way etc) to suggest that an old school 442 could suit us?

De Gea
Awb. Varane. Maguire. Shaw
Sancho. Fred. McT. Pogba.
Ronaldo. Rashford.


Bit more in midfield with Sancho and Pogba able to feed the forwards and provide some width ? It means there is less of a place for Fernandes which is a headache. I haven't bothered including VDB cos he isn't gonna play.

 

[noodlehair]

I think this is a misconception though that you have to pick certain players because, well they are good. The balance of the team has to always come first. In fact we have an awful build squad which is in large parts the reason why we have now been struggling for ages years now. Rashford, Greenwood, Martial, Ronaldo, Cavani are all essentially strikers, some of them can play in wider positions but their instinct is all first and foremost to score themselves. Letting out Sancho admittedly is something that irks me, since he is the so long needed creative input from a wide position. That he isn't in the best form of his life right now and is struggling a bit is true, but he won't overcome it by being benched because we play a formation in which there is no room for him.

When it comes to the midfield, it is what it is right now, and we probably won't be able to do something about it until next summer, so we need to find a way to get a balanced team out there and if that means to play on the counter for now, so be it. But what we can't keep doing is playing 4 strikers, do horrible gap exposing pressing and be confused about why we get slaughtered.

You don't have to play 7 defensive players to play on the counter and I don't understand how that will work against 90% of opponents who will force us to try and break them down. We've done it very effectively with a back 4. Much more rarely with a back 5

Other teams who make this system work do so because they have the players to make it work and can interchange. We'd be rendering half our squad irrelevant including most of our better players, and then would come completely undone as soon as Varane, Shaw, Bissaka, Fred, Ronaldo, Cavani or Mctominay got injured....and at least 3 of those can't play every game even if they're fit.

This is the problem with just randomly trying stuff instead of the manager actually having a plan.

 

[romufc]

You don't have to play 7 defensive players to play on the counter and I don't understand how that will work against 90% of opponents who will force us to try and break them down. We've done it very effectively with a back 4. Much more rarely with a back 5

Other teams who make this system work do so because they have the players to make it work and can interchange. We'd be rendering half our squad irrelevant including most of our better players, and then would come completely undone as soon as Varane, Shaw, Bissaka, Fred, Ronaldo, Cavani or Mctominay got injured....and at least 3 of those can't play every game even if they're fit.

This is the problem with just randomly trying stuff instead of the manager actually having a plan.

Firstly, he had a plan, it has gone to shits this season, which is why a different formation.

Chelsea have been playing really well with a similar formation?

You also don't need 7 attackers in a game.

If Cavani is injured, Greenwood, Rashford can play there.

If Shaw is injured, Telles can play LWB, if Varane is injured Shaw can play LCB.

If the so called better players are not helping the team defensively without the ball and they are not scoring goals, who cares if they are rendered irrelevant. Its not about playing your favourite players, its getting the balance right.

 

[justsomebloke]

Is it stupid (and ironic, given our fixation on the past, history, United way etc) to suggest that an old school 442 could suit us?

De Gea
Awb. Varane. Maguire. Shaw
Sancho. Fred. McT. Pogba.
Ronaldo. Rashford.


Bit more in midfield with Sancho and Pogba able to feed the forwards and provide some width ? It means there is less of a place for Fernandes which is a headache. I haven't bothered including VDB cos he isn't gonna play.

A formation that makes our key player basically unplayable? I'd say that is a little bit of a headache, yeah.

 

[NoLogo]

You don't have to play 7 defensive players to play on the counter and I don't understand how that will work against 90% of opponents who will force us to try and break them down. We've done it very effectively with a back 4. Much more rarely with a back 5

Other teams who make this system work do so because they have the players to make it work and can interchange. We'd be rendering half our squad irrelevant including most of our better players, and then would come completely undone as soon as Varane, Shaw, Bissaka, Fred, Ronaldo, Cavani or Mctominay got injured....and at least 3 of those can't play every game even if they're fit.

This is the problem with just randomly trying stuff instead of the manager actually having a plan.

I agree it's going to be a problem as soon as we meet opponents that are trying to do to us what we are trying to do to them. The problem is like I mentioned the team is wrongfully assembled and we are at the stage where playing effective 4231 or 433 under Ole is impossible because we are shite at keeping the ball and can't press and the reason for that is Ole and his incompetent staff as well as our shitty squad building. I'm pretty sure that as long as Ole is our manager we'll be fecked either way, play defensive and be toothless against deep standing teams, or try attacking football and be toothless because of bad working pressing and lack of ability to keep possession in significant areas of the pitch. As long as we can't do any of the requirements of modern football properly, we will be shite. And yet I still feel like there are certain things how we can even worsen the problem for us, not play enough players that qualify as midfielders and can help in the build up, which is something that happens every time we play 4231 with Bruno, Rashford, Ronaldo and Greenwood, it always leaves us with a 2-man midfield.

 

[The United]

Yes, a part, but work rate will never be enough, if there is too much space to cover.

Oh. You are serious.

 

[city-puma]

I wanna see how Martial performs when he is sent on to be one of two upfront.

 

[shinpad]

I think 3-5-2 suits us well, Ronaldo and Cavani are pure class in front of goal and never panic, Rashford,Lingard,Sancho call all be called on from the bench if more fire power is needed. It should be the end for Pogpa he just doesn't get it, the starting point has to be solid at the back to build some confidence though the team and in those front 2 they can turn half chances into goals against anyone.

 

[sullydnl]

Highlights one of the issues with this formation: we're one only ever one knock away from having to play Bailly.

 

[AltiUn]

Highlights one of the issues with this formation: we're one only ever one knock away from having to play Bailly.

Could stick Shaw in there, he played really well there against PSG last year. Would rely on Telles being fit though.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Highlights one of the issues with this formation: we're one only ever one knock away from having to play Bailly.

The disrespect to Phil Jones!

 

[PieCrust]

Setting up shop with 7 defenders and hoping your 3 world class attackers can make some magic on the counter isn't exactly the cutting edge tactical brilliance we need.

 

[Red5]

No, this formation requires great attacking wingbacks and great CMs to work consistently enough, and we currently have none of either. Utd won’t be playing a Spurs team trying to get rid of their manager every week.

The future of the club is Rashford, Sancho and Greenwood, and they need to be playing more often than not. Letting them wither on the vine in favour of a 352 (really 532 if Shaw and AWB are the wingbacks) sticking plaster is muddled thinking.

 

[romufc]

Setting up shop with 7 defenders and hoping your 3 world class attackers can make some magic on the counter isn't exactly the cutting edge tactical brilliance we need.

Tuchel plays with 5 same formation with 3 upfront, loads of people are singing his name though.

 

[NotQuiteManc]

For me, as long as they play better, as individuals and as a team and then winning, I don't care what combination of numbers they have on paper. Frankly, with the previous formations, they played like they were amateurs at times and looked lost on the pitch. 352 or 343 depending on the opponents and form of players/injuries etc. could be interesting.

 

[Red5]

Tuchel plays with 5 same formation with 3 upfront, loads of people are singing his name though.

The difference is the wingbacks. With Chilwell and James (7 goals in 8 starts between them in the league so far this season) I’d say they have a 5:5 defence:attack split vs our 7:3 with Shaw & AWB playing wingback.