3-5-2 formation this season for United?

devilish said:
I don't think the Cavani-Ronaldo-Bruno trio could work against a team that is not this Spurs. Cavani and Ronaldo can't be expected to drop deep and do the work while Bruno plays too forward these days. So I'd say we should try and play Sancho or Rashford behind Ronaldo. Let's see how it goes.
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But Bruno didn't play as high against Spurs as he does usually (so he could have been asked to stop doing that in a 4-2-3-1 (which has been done in the 2nd half against Atalanta, you know the outcome) already. A trio like that can definitely work against anybody. You only need a plan for the whole team.

justsomebloke said:
Given the hole we were in, playing this formation made good sense, and it worked. But does it really offer a way forward?

Historically we've used this formation against the strongest teams, where we've been content to cede dominance of the game and rely primarily on counterattacks. Even yesterday, against a Spurs team that played badly enough to make the board consider Santos' position, we had barely 40% possession. Not that possession is the goal in itself, but it speaks clearly about how this formation makes us an essentially reactive team. And if Spurs managed nearly 60%, what's it going to be against Chelsea, or even Brighton? Is that a sound basis for progressing towards being a top team? And where is Paul Pogba going to fit into it?

...

AFAICS, that will leave us with no other option than to chop and change, formation-wise. 4231 remains the only formation that allows us to make optimal use of the player material of the squad, and we really need to find a way to make that work - at the very least against some opponents. If we have 2 or 3 different variants that we can use effectively, and OGS is bold and imaginative in the use of the squad, that might work. However, that seems to run counter to the established patterns of his management, which is to stick with largely the same lineup and formation once he's found something that has overcome a crisis. And if we do that with the 3412 we will hit the wall eventually, and have half the squad deeply unhappy even while it goes well.
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I agree with all of your post except for these two paragraphs:
1) You put what you've seen solely on the formation and while I agree with your observations, the conclusion to put it on the formation is wrong. Add to that that we didn't even really play 3-5-2 or did you have the feeling that our fullbacks played very different than usually? I don't think they did, the average position was only a fraction higher than in the game against Liverpool. So both played as fullbacks, defenders. In front of two defensive minded midfielders and Bruno. Exchange the AWB with someone like Hakimi, play a midfield like Chelsea with Jorginho and Kovacic (both their strenghts aren't defensive but ball progression) than your team looks totally different despite being in the same formation.

2) The formation shouldn't be the first thing to change because a formation change usually comes with a few "presets". Obviously you can change these defaults but this takes some time. Right now, we don't have to step away from 4-2-3-1 to stop the biggest rot:
- Add Varane to whoever performs better next to him out of Maguire and Lindelof
- instruct the fullbacks to join the builtup
- instruct Bruno to play as a midfielder first and formost (something like against Spurs Bruno slightly in front of Fred, slightly in front of McTominay)
- adjust the builtup speed - a) stop going Hollywood all the time but only if it is really promising b) whole team supports the builtup (especially the wing players)
- adjust the wingplayer instructions, they get defensive responsibility, they have to communicate so that only one attacks space while the other stays "reserved"

Do all these things and bam, I sure we look solid again. Not as entertaining anymore but goals like against Spurs are still easily possible. If the match asks for it, take a way one or two restriction temporarily to force the issue.

The most wrong thing we can do now is still trying to shoehorn any formation into something that is able to carry all our "best player of the team". It isn't working, we made errors in recruitment, we have to live with the consequences.


justsomebloke said:
This is a good point. A 343/352 is not necessarily a formation you use for defensive football. Chelsea is a case in point - they dominate games, score goals and often have more than 60% posession. But, they do that by playing a very high line, always keeping a tight shape, and pressing intensively and well all over the pitch. If you play it the way we do - line not that high, posture not that compact, dropping relatively low when without the ball - that is definitely not a formation for control, never mind for attacking football. That is much more a reactive formation. Which suits us in many ways, but it's not a way of playing if you're even contesting dominance of the game. And if you're playing an opponent who is equally happy to be reactive.....
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Which is why it is important to separate formation from appoach. Even though in this instance our so called 3-5-2 was in my eyes more a 4-2-1-2 with an additional CB, a 5-2-1-2 or 5-1-2-2 if you will depending on where you've seen Fernandes.

No trainer will be able to turn us into possession monsters in the middle of the season. Same goes for pressing, high line whatsoever. But we don't need to be masters of everything to have a successful season. We just have to decide on a plan and execute it. Accepting that this plan will have winners and losers and that the losers might want be unhappy for a while.
 
I think Ole will use this formation for at least the next few games. It's the most comfortable we've been all season. De Gea didn't have one save to make. It helps when you have more players behind the ball. People have called Ole defensive, because he plays McFred a lot, but I disagree. Both of these players get forward when they play. We usually play with a lot of players in front of the ball. You see the outcome of that when teams counter us. Playing this 'defensive' formation, we still won the game 3-0.

The main issue is, our squad isn't built for this formation. Ole never planned to use it. He has played a 4-2-3-1 (4-2-4 in his words) throughout most of his time here. We already had too many attacking players for the 4-2-3-1. He is going to have some unhappy players on his hands if he continues to use this formation all season. He bought Sancho for £74m to give us some creativity on the wings for the 4-2-3-1. I don't see how you can bench him and not have it be questioned. He doesn't fit in this formation at all. At least Rashford and Greenwood could play as the 2 upfront.
 
Bit of a disaster on paper as Sancho and Rashford are our best two players and the future of the club. Ronaldo and Cavani won't be here in 2 years.
 
NZT-One said:
But Bruno didn't play as high against Spurs as he does usually (so he could have been asked to stop doing that in a 4-2-3-1 (which has been done in the 2nd half against Atalanta, you know the outcome) already. A trio like that can definitely work against anybody. You only need a plan for the whole team.
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I beg to differ on that. Cavani and Ronaldo simply can't track back at that age. They are basically two RVNs. Now that's all well and good against a dreadful Spurs. Would it work against a decent side? I very much doubt it.
 
NZT-One said:
But Bruno didn't play as high against Spurs as he does usually (so he could have been asked to stop doing that in a 4-2-3-1 (which has been done in the 2nd half against Atalanta, you know the outcome) already. A trio like that can definitely work against anybody. You only need a plan for the whole team.


I agree with all of your post except for these two paragraphs:
1) You put what you've seen solely on the formation and while I agree with your observations, the conclusion to put it on the formation is wrong. Add to that that we didn't even really play 3-5-2 or did you have the feeling that our fullbacks played very different than usually? I don't think they did, the average position was only a fraction higher than in the game against Liverpool. So both played as fullbacks, defenders. In front of two defensive minded midfielders and Bruno. Exchange the AWB with someone like Hakimi, play a midfield like Chelsea with Jorginho and Kovacic (both their strenghts aren't defensive but ball progression) than your team looks totally different despite being in the same formation.

2) The formation shouldn't be the first thing to change because a formation change usually comes with a few "presets". Obviously you can change these defaults but this takes some time. Right now, we don't have to step away from 4-2-3-1 to stop the biggest rot:
- Add Varane to whoever performs better next to him out of Maguire and Lindelof
- instruct the fullbacks to join the builtup
- instruct Bruno to play as a midfielder first and formost (something like against Spurs Bruno slightly in front of Fred, slightly in front of McTominay)
- adjust the builtup speed - a) stop going Hollywood all the time but only if it is really promising b) whole team supports the builtup (especially the wing players)
- adjust the wingplayer instructions, they get defensive responsibility, they have to communicate so that only one attacks space while the other stays "reserved"

Do all these things and bam, I sure we look solid again. Not as entertaining anymore but goals like against Spurs are still easily possible. If the match asks for it, take a way one or two restriction temporarily to force the issue.

The most wrong thing we can do now is still trying to shoehorn any formation into something that is able to carry all our "best player of the team". It isn't working, we made errors in recruitment, we have to live with the consequences.



Which is why it is important to separate formation from appoach. Even though in this instance our so called 3-5-2 was in my eyes more a 4-2-1-2 with an additional CB, a 5-2-1-2 or 5-1-2-2 if you will depending on where you've seen Fernandes.

No trainer will be able to turn us into possession monsters in the middle of the season. Same goes for pressing, high line whatsoever. But we don't need to be masters of everything to have a successful season. We just have to decide on a plan and execute it. Accepting that this plan will have winners and losers and that the losers might want be unhappy for a while.
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Good points generally. I agree approach matters as much as formation, but on the other hand different formations do give you a different starting point and your player material impacts on the dynamics too.The thing with Chelsea isn't just that they have a different approach in terms of pressing, but also that they have exactly the player quality at wing back and in central midfield that we lack, as you also allude to. That in turn limit our options in terms of approach. I have never seen us play with the 3 at the back and still dominate possession and the game generally; with us, that has always been associated with a deep defence, counterattack type of game. I do think playing 3 at the back generally comes at a cost in terms of control, possession and generation of scoring chances off established play relative to other formations, though as Chelsea shows this is possible to counteract. I'm not advocating we should do it like Chelsea; I don't think we have the personnel for it.

I think you're right that we need to make adjustments that enables us to continue playing with four at the back. It's what the squad has been built for, and what we're best adapted to. And I don't see how 3 at the back is going to see us through as a default formation, given our limitations in some of the key positions.
 
Red5 said:
The difference is the wingbacks. With Chilwell and James (7 goals in 8 starts between them in the league so far this season) I’d say they have a 5:5 defence:attack split vs our 7:3 with Shaw & AWB playing wingback.
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Oh here we go agenda FC. If you want to count goals from their full backs, why don't you count the goals from our forwards against theirs, they dont score much so does that mean their forwards are defenders?
 
romufc said:
Oh here we go agenda FC. If you want to count goals from their full backs, why don't you count the goals from our forwards against theirs, they dont score much so does that mean their forwards are defenders?
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He makes a perfectly legitimate and correct point: If you want to play 3 at the back and still play offensively dominant football, offensive contributions from the wing backs is a key requirement.
 
justsomebloke said:
He makes a perfectly legitimate and correct point: If you want to play 3 at the back and still play offensively dominant football, offensive contributions from the wing backs is a key requirement.
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Yeah but people need to stop acting as if Chilwell is like miles ahead of Shaw.
 
If he really wants to persist with 3 at the back we should try the 3-4-3 today for example. Bruno doesn't need to play every game anymore now as we have enough competition and options.

Today:
--------DDG----------
---Bailly--Maguire-Varane---
AWB---Fred--Pogba---Telles
----Sancho--Ronaldo---Rashford--

With Ronaldo coming off for Greenwood in the second half.

vs City:
-----------------DDG-------------------
Bailly/Lindelof--Maguire--Varane
AWB--McTominay--Fred---Shaw
----------Bruno----------------
-----Cavani----Ronaldo

Solskjaer needs to start to rotate as the likes of Tuchel and Pep are doing. He can't continue to play the same 12-14 players all the time. Last season you could say ok, there wasn't enough quality to rotate much. But this season is a completely different animal when everyone is fit.
 
Realistically it's 5-2-1-2

To be honest with the lack of midfield and issues with the work rate of some of our forwards, we need to either go all-out attack and try and outscore the opposition or all-out defence.

I would suspect the all-out defence will get us more points over the season so i guess that's the way to go..... it's going to be boring as hell to watch though and is going to ruin some of our younger attacking players due to the lack of football they are going to get.
 
Nytram Shakes said:
Realistically it's 5-2-1-2

To be honest with the lack of midfield and issues with the work rate of some of our forwards, we need to either go all-out attack and try and outscore the opposition or all-out defence.

I would suspect the all-out defence will get us more points over the season so i guess that's the way to go..... it's going to be boring as hell to watch though and is going to ruin some of our younger attacking players due to the lack of football they are going to get.
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Yeah brilliant plan then. Let's suffer our talented young players because our Coaching staff don't know how to use them and the most important thing is to keep Ole in his Job because he scored that goal over 2 decades ago.

Anyway, I refuse to believe that it's Ole's plan to play that defensive the majority of the games. At the latest when we start to drop points he would be under a lot of pressure to play an more attacking formation again and to use his attacking players.
But then again, he could easily start to implement a more offensive 3-5-2 or 3-4-3 style of play if he was a good coach. He could then rotate his options and keep them happy.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure he has it in him.
 
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Nytram Shakes said:
Realistically it's 5-2-1-2

To be honest with the lack of midfield and issues with the work rate of some of our forwards, we need to either go all-out attack and try and outscore the opposition or all-out defence.

I would suspect the all-out defence will get us more points over the season so i guess that's the way to go..... it's going to be boring as hell to watch though and is going to ruin some of our younger attacking players due to the lack of football they are going to get.
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I think that is the way to go. I don't get why Ole is getting all of the blame, as much as I think he is not good enough, fans these days do not question their favourite players.

Lets be honest, Greenwood and Rashford have only themselves to blame for being dropped. Football is a team game, if you are not willing to give it your all out of position, it is only fair for the manager to say, fine, you don't play and I will reinforce the defence.

Rashford is one of the laziest footballers there is and it is rubbed off on Greenwood.

Bruno is another player that is poor defensively, he leaves his position to carry out a 1 man press and gets played around. This then stretches every other player out of position and we look like we don;t know what we are doing.

This formation brings back structure, the players need to take a hard look at themselves and realise its not just the manager. Look at what Cavani does.
 
romufc said:
I think that is the way to go. I don't get why Ole is getting all of the blame, as much as I think he is not good enough, fans these days do not question their favourite players.

Lets be honest, Greenwood and Rashford have only themselves to blame for being dropped. Football is a team game, if you are not willing to give it your all out of position, it is only fair for the manager to say, fine, you don't play and I will reinforce the defence.

Rashford is one of the laziest footballers there is and it is rubbed off on Greenwood.

Bruno is another player that is poor defensively, he leaves his position to carry out a 1 man press and gets played around. This then stretches every other player out of position and we look like we don;t know what we are doing.

This formation brings back structure, the players need to take a hard look at themselves and realise its not just the manager. Look at what Cavani does.
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I disagree mate. Ole has build this squad to play attacking football and now suddenly the way to go is a 5-2-1-2 formation? That's a joke in my opinion. Rashford at least will be rotated, but I fear for the playing time of Greenwood and Sancho. Not to speak about Lingard, Martial, Diallo. If they continue to play this defensiv formation then it shows a complete lack of vision and plan from our Coaching staff.

I hope they were just in survival mode vs Spurs and will revert to play more than 7 defensive minded player after the City game.

Or do you guys really feel the 5-2-1-2 formation is the way to guy in our run of "easy" fixtures in december?
 
Beans said:
Bit of a disaster on paper as Sancho and Rashford are our best two players and the future of the club. Ronaldo and Cavani won't be here in 2 years.
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Disaster on paper is eleven appearances with zero assists or goals.
 
Swiss_Red89 said:
I disagree mate. Ole has build this squad to play attacking football and now suddenly the way to go is a 5-2-1-2 formation? That's a joke in my opinion. Rashford at least will be rotated, but I fear for the playing time of Greenwood and Sancho. Not to speak about Lingard, Martial, Diallo. If they continue to play this defensiv formation then it shows a complete lack of vision and plan from our Coaching staff.

I hope they were just in survival mode vs Spurs and will revert to play more than 7 defensive minded player after the City game.

Or do you guys really feel the 5-2-1-2 formation is the way to guy in our run of "easy" fixtures in december?
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Apologies, I should have clarified. I think this is a good formation for now, to build back defensive confidence.

We should play this until City, then when we go to Watford, he can revert with a more attacking team.

However; I do not want to see Rashford and Greenwood back in the lineup until they understand the role of a team player. Greenwood has great ability, he has scored loads of individual goals for us, not many have been team goals.

The numbers sky sports showed that Sancho does the most tracking back in our team, so I would like to see him on the right.

Players need to work for the team, the shape is the most important part when it comes to defending.

In an ideal world I want to see a 4-3-3 with a balanced working midfield which means Bruno has to fix up positionally. You cannot allow a player to do what he wants, press on his own.
 
Beans said:
Bit of a disaster on paper as Sancho and Rashford are our best two players and the future of the club. Ronaldo and Cavani won't be here in 2 years.
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You can easily modify the shape to play 3-4-3 to add more width. The gauntlet thrown in front of them by Ole and Cavani is to match his work ethic if they want game time.
 
devilish said:
I beg to differ on that. Cavani and Ronaldo simply can't track back at that age. They are basically two RVNs. Now that's all well and good against a dreadful Spurs. Would it work against a decent side? I very much doubt it.
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Two parts:
a) I just noted that Bruno wasn't playing as high as he did usually in the last match. And not in the 2nd half against Atalanta. It is a very very small sample size but the trend is going in the right direction.
b) I doubt that it would work against a decent side as well as long as we do not adjust the whole team. If you know your strikers and you are able to play to their strength against a good opponent, it would work. It is just that we usually don't do that. Still doesn't mean it is impossible. Cavani is more than fine in terms of tracking back, no RVN at all I'd say.
 
devilish said:
I beg to differ on that. Cavani and Ronaldo simply can't track back at that age. They are basically two RVNs. Now that's all well and good against a dreadful Spurs. Would it work against a decent side? I very much doubt it.
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This is something lazy. weren't we dreadful before the spurs game?

Haven't teams lower in the table played us and outplayed us this season?

Hasn't every team that has come to OT this season made numerous clear cut chances?

Were they all decent sides? I highly doubt it.

I can give you 1 example. Everton.
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
You can easily modify the shape to play 3-4-3 to add more width. The gauntlet thrown in front of them by Ole and Cavani is to match his work ethic if they want game time.
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343 (really 523 with Shaw & AWB) gives the width back we don’t have in 352 (really 532), but means no place for Bruno, which makes it a non-starter unless he’s injured or resting.
 
Red5 said:
The difference is the wingbacks. With Chilwell and James (7 goals in 8 starts between them in the league so far this season) I’d say they have a 5:5 defence:attack split vs our 7:3 with Shaw & AWB playing wingback.
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The difference is also that his team is actually good at slow build-ups against deep standing opponents and decent at pressing. Two things we are utter shite at, no matter the formation.
 
I know a lot has been made about sancho and this formation but I honestly believe there is no reason why he can’t play in any of the front 3 positions in a 3-5-2. He’s a super talented football with bags of potential.

do you think pep looks at his players and pigeon holes them as 1/2 positions on the field. I don’t think so.
 
Red5 said:
The difference is the wingbacks. With Chilwell and James (7 goals in 8 starts between them in the league so far this season) I’d say they have a 5:5 defence:attack split vs our 7:3 with Shaw & AWB playing wingback.
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Both are in and out of the team? I’d put Alonso and Azpilliqueta (best attempt) as their starting FBs
 
Red5 said:
343 (really 523 with Shaw & AWB) gives the width back we don’t have in 352 (really 532), but means no place for Bruno, which makes it a non-starter unless he’s injured or resting.
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He doesn’t have to play every game, in fact him and Pogba should seldom play together considering the risks both take on the ball.
 
Wonder how many teams will start playing this formation… you have Chelsea who do, spurs will probably start to now with conte, we may do but will probably change throughout the season… city and Liverpool will obviously stick with the 4-3-3..: we should stick with this if it is working but change it between a 3-4-3 and 3-4-1-2 depending on the opponent. 3-4-3 would be good against teams that play high line as it would provide us with more width and will be good for the wingers to drift inside and the LM/RM to overlap.
 
cyberman said:
Both are in and out of the team? I’d put Alonso and Azpilliqueta (best attempt) as their starting FBs
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It’s Chilwell now at LWB, in the league anyway (started last four). James is more in and out (partly due to suspension) but I expect he’ll start more often than not this season.

Doesn’t really matter though, the point is they can play a formation heavily reliant on attacking wingbacks because they have players who can do that. Chilwell James Alonso and Azpi are all better at it than any we have.
 
3 - 1 - 2 - 2 . Ole at least tried to find a solution for the midfield 3 with 2 CMs/AMs.

Let's see how our defensive shape will be like.
 
Is it really a 3-5-2 though? AWB his main strenght is defending although Shaw has the qualities to play as a wingback. Looks more like a 5-3-2 with the more defensive mentality of the wide players i think.
 
Red5 said:
It’s Chilwell now at LWB, in the league anyway (started last four). James is more in and out (partly due to suspension) but I expect he’ll start more often than not this season.

Doesn’t really matter though, the point is they can play a formation heavily reliant on attacking wingbacks because they have players who can do that. Chilwell James Alonso and Azpi are all better at it than any we have.
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I’d argue out FBs were the main source of our width anyway in a back 4? All our wide men do is cut in and it’s up to them to get to the byline
 
I'd like to think Ole's thinking is any deeper than 'good enough to beat Spurs' for the Atalanta game, but I don't think it is. It's not tactical nous tailored to the opponent, just throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks.
 
How are the board not sacking Ole purely for him wanting Sancho, not playing him then changing to 532!

Ole is absolutely inept. Said he wants the best for the club, in reality he will sacrifice the development of our players to save his job.
 
I'm fine with 352 and all that but it is Ole admitting his project has failed.

We have got 8 attackers now who won't play most of the time.

Tonight it's
Mata
Greenwood
Martial
Sancho
VDB
Amad
Cavani
Lingard

Ok some of them like Mata and Amad it's ok to have no minutes but we still have a massive problem now that we only play 3 attackers and two are Ronaldo and Bruno so they play practically every game.

Rashford Greenwood and Cavani will share the third spot and the rest don't even have a spot to compete for.

We spent 70 mil on Sancho and now play a formation where his position doesn't exist.

So while this formation may work going forward, it is the start of an entirely new Project for Ole.
 
Ole got too adventurous starting 4 attacking players we need to go back to 3.
 
Those thinking a simple formation change or a single DM were the answer to all of our problems need their heads checking.

3 years and we don't know what to do when pressed, can't press ourselves and look amateurish for large parts of matches against any well drilled side. At this point, to defend our management team you're basically saying "management means nothing, could stick Gordon the Gopher at United or Liverpool and it'd make no difference".

Thank feck we've got some wonderful footballers though, and one of the best to ever grace the game.
 
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