2024 U.S. Elections | Trump wins

AfonsoAlves said:
Oh do feck off Bernie, your foreign policy is the one thing stopping me from ever supporting you. US defense budget is the only budget which contains Military pensions and healthcare provisioning as part of its budget which eats up a huge chunk. Then, all the other big spenders don't have any provisional oversight.

The US military is chronically underfunded, with problems in all branches, across every fecking system from Procurement to Manpower availability to Strategic assets to Shipbuilding to Intelligence to Platform design.

If this rot continues the West is fecked in 20-30 years.
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What's the % spent on pensions and healthcare out of interest? The US military budget is enormous. 40% of the entire world's military spending unless I'm mistaken? Saying its chronically underfunded sounds absolutely ridiculous on the face of it. But I'm aware you're a lot more clued up on current military matters than most posters on here. Have you got any stats you can share to back that up?

Besides pensions and healthcare, I can imagine a lot of the budget being hoovered up by suppliers etc. It also must cost a lot to simply maintain the shear size and scale of the current force too, even if parts of it are becoming redundant. And downsizing any aspect of it isn't going to go down well.
 
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Raoul said:
It’s because she either doesn’t yet have an answer or she is planning on raising taxes, both of which aren’t good for her, especially since she will at some point have to do interviews where the question is asked.
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She gave an answer, a clear one at that. These measures would increase the tax base so there is no need to raise taxes.
 
Bert_ said:
What's the % spent on pensions and healthcare out of interest? The US military budget is enormous. 40% of the entire world's military spending unless I'm mistaken? Saying its chronically underfunded sounds absolutely ridiculous on the face of it. But I'm aware you're a lot more clued up on current military matters than most posters on here. Have you got any stats you can share to back that up?

Besides pensions and healthcare, I can imagine a lot of the budget being hoovered up by suppliers etc. It also must cost a lot to simply maintain the shear size and scale of the current force too, even if parts of it are becoming redundant. And downsizing any aspect of it isn't going to go down well.
Click to expand...

So regarding % wise, I don't know. Because DoD and DoVA has it's seperated funding which added together totals slightly over a trillion. The DoD Healthcare and Pensions costing is part of it's Personnel costings, where some of the breakdowns aren't fully available in the public domain. Or it's broken down in some 500 page DoD PDF that I haven't managed to sift through.

But total numbers wise: Personnel Salaries + Active Personnel Healthcare + Pensions + Housing + Veterans Healthcare totals to a number just short of 600 Billion USD

https://department.va.gov/administrations-and-offices/management/budget/#:~:text=The U.S. Department of Veterans,above FY 2024 estimated levels.

https://comptroller.defense.gov/Por...Y2025/FY2025_Budget_Request_Overview_Book.pdf

So let's go through all the chronic shortages of the US right now:

1) Shipbuilding - This is the biggest problem facing the US military right now. There are a lot of reasons that factor in to why US military shipbuilding is in catastrophically bad shape right now, but my main gripe is with the Jones Act and the general lack of political willingness to subsidize the building of new shipyards. This, plus the general malaise of the civilian shipbuilding industry has made the USN unable to expand. In the Cold War, the US could field 600-700 ship fleets. Now, the US Navy is aiming to reach a 400 ship navy by the end of the 2030's. To put into context of how bad this problem is, China at the moment is able to build 6 destroyers a year, the US is able to build 1.5. China is able to build 5 Submarines a year, US is able to build 2. China has put out 2 new aircraft carriers (with a further one currently undergoing early stage trials) in 6 years, US in the same time frame has been able to build the USS Gerald R. Ford. In the past 5 years, China has built 21 modern frigates. US has built....none. China has built 8 LHD/LHA's, US has built 2.5. You see how the disparity here is incredibly, incredibly concerning?

2) The state of the Navy in general. There are so so many things wrong with the Navy right now that requires sustained investment of hundreds of billions in order to begin to rectify.

-There is still no active US Frigate since the Oliver Hazard Perry's retired, and until the Constellations are built. This means that bigger ships have to do the duty of frigates, which leads to overworked hulls, degredation (Which leads to further increased costs of R&R) as well as crew fatigue.
- There is still no DDG(X) Program to replace the 45 year old Arleigh Burke hull. Arleigh Burke's have reached the end of their design lifespan.
- There is still no LSC design to replace the Ticonderoga class which reached the end of its service life. LSC should have been completed a decade ago, but due to budget cuts there was never a replacement for the cruisers. What the Navy have done instead is to turn the LSC program into Arleigh Burke Flight III, which is to cram even more engine power into a 45 year old hull, put in flagship modules and add a few more missile tubes and a more power radar to replace the Ticonderga. It's not a real Tico replacement, just a short term stop gap.
- There are not enough sailors, which has led to many fatal accidents this past 5 years, especially to the 7th Fleet.
- There are simply not enough ships in general, again mainly to the 7th fleet, which has led to some horrendous faults.
- The navy simply do not have the money to buy enough F-35C's. What they're doing is praying NGAD FA(XX) comes through and they will buy those instead. If it doesn't, the Navy is screwed in a Pacific war where it has to rely on Superhornets against 5th Gen Chinese Aircraft.

Oh, you know whats funny about the last point? The Navy is delaying its FA(XX) program because...it cannot afford it due to so many other pressing urgent issues! Furthermore, due to the obsolescence of the existing FA18 Hornets, the production lines for them have been shut down. So Navy have no way of procuring current Naval Air Wings, cannot afford F-35's and cannot afford to research FA(XX) to replace the FA18's.

https://breakingdefense.com/2024/03...x-fighter-spending-for-near-term-investments/

https://www.heritage.org/defense/report/the-nation-needs-400-ship-navy#:~:text=To achieve the 400-ship,current long-range shipbuilding plan.

When Vice Adm. Joseph Aucoin was elevated to lead the vaunted 7th Fleet in 2015, he expected it to be the pinnacle of his nearly four-decade Navy career. The fleet was the largest and most powerful in the world, and its role as one of America’s great protectors had new urgency. China was expanding into disputed waters. And Kim Jong-un was testing ballistic missiles in North Korea.

Aucoin was bred on such challenges. As a Navy aviator, he’d led the “Black Aces,” a squadron of F-14 Tomcats that in the late 1990s bombed targets in Kosovo.

But what he found with the 7th Fleet alarmed and angered him.
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The fleet was short of sailors, and those it had were often poorly trained and worked to exhaustion. Its warships were falling apart, and a bruising, ceaseless pace of operations meant there was little chance to get necessary repairs done. The very top of the Navy was consumed with buying new, more sophisticated ships, even as its sailors struggled to master and hold together those they had. The Pentagon, half a world away, was signing off on requests for ships to carry out more and more missions.

The risks were obvious, and Aucoin repeatedly warned his superiors about them. During video conferences, he detailed his fleet’s pressing needs and the hazards of not addressing them. He compiled data showing that the unrelenting demands on his ships and sailors were unsustainable. He pleaded with his bosses to acknowledge the vulnerability of the 7th Fleet.

Aucoin recalled the response: “Crickets.” If he wasn’t ignored, he was put off — told to calm down and get the job done.

On June 17, 2017, shortly after 1:30 a.m., the USS Fitzgerald, a $1.8 billion destroyer belonging to the 7th Fleet, collided with a giant cargo ship off the coast of Japan. Seven sailors drowned in their sleeping quarters. It was the deadliest naval disaster in four decades.
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3) The Air Force is not faring any better.

- There is no long term primary Air Superiority Fighter in the works. The primary project for this just got suspended, partly due to lack of funding. Without Airforce NGAD, the USAF is incredibly vulnerable. The lifespan of the F-22 is coming to an end soon and the USAF are still going to have to rely on its baseline F-15's from the 1970's as the main frontline Air Superiority Fighter (Granted, F-15EX is exponentially more modern and better than F15-C's). Congress were so worried USAF were going to retire the F-22 due to lack of scalability and modernization that they actually put a law in that prevented F-22's from being retired.

https://www.airforce-technology.com...ngress-with-f-22-retirement-data-gao/?cf-view

https://meta-defense.fr/en/2024/07/31/chasseur-de-6ᵉ-generation-ngad-suspendu/

- Loyal Wingman integrated networked drones is delayed. This was meant to be the future of the USAF - F-35's and NGAD's supported by autonomous cheap fighter jets that didn't require a pilot and was fully AI controlled. Well, this has been delayed by about 2-3 years now.

https://breakingdefense.com/2023/12/no-bucks-no-bang-secaf-kendall-warns-24-budget-logjam-could-cost-a-year-on-ai-fighter/#:~:text=REAGAN NATIONAL DEFENSE FORUM — The,Force Frank Kendall warned today.

- Lack of any deep penetrative tactical bomber on the horizon. B-21 is a strategic bomber, F117's have been retired, F-35's can do it but are not suitable entirely for that purpose due to lack of payload size, B-1 Lancer's are a mess. There is nothing that will allow for Tactical level deep penetration bombing missions against critical infrastructure. There isn't even a R&D/Research Program to overcome this problem right now.

- Delay in AIM-260 A2A missile. This is meant to be the counter to the PL-15 but it's offset with delay after delay, due to lack of congressional funding and no money to be spent on it.

- The KC Tanker procurement plan is an absolute mess right now.

4) The Army is in okay shape, but it's undergoing a massive modernization program that is being completely underfunded.

- Old M2A2 Bradleys need replacing. XM30 has been given the go-ahead, the Army says they need to procure 4000 of them, just for active service (Forget reserves and backup vehicles). It was meant to be done by 2014, but due to funding issues, got delayed and delayed and the final contract hasn't even been given due to this.
- M113's are being replaced. In 2012 the US Army proposed they need 3000 AMPV's (M128(X) series). It never got funded so we're now in 2024 and it took until 2023 for the FIRST BATTALION of AMPV's to get delivered to the Army.
- MBT Modernization program is going incredibly slowly. It's now a competition between AbramsX and AbramsM1A3X. IF it gets funding, a new MBT might be in service by 2030.
- M109 Paladin's have been earmarked for replacement. A project called M1299 Howitzer was earmarked. Cancelled in 2024. Why? Too expensive relative to its value.

https://www.defensenews.com/land/20...nded-range-cannon-artillery-prototype-effort/

- Light Tank Project finally saw the light of day, with the M10 Booker finally entering service. About 5-8 years too late and not enough funding for mass production yet.
-

https://meta-defense.fr/en/2024/03/12/super-canon-m1299-erca-abandon-us-army/


Man, It's really late and I could go on and on and on about all the issues that need resolving (primarily with desperately needed funding), but I'd be here all night.

I haven't even touched on SM-6 production bottlenecks, LRASM low rate production, Standard Issue Rifle replacement delays and all the other myriad of problems plaguing the US military right now.

The US military is in its worse shape relatively since about 1975.
 
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Carolina Red said:
He’s at a sports bar explaining to someone that Michelle Obama is a female.

Very common in the South to run into folks who swear that she’s a man & that Barack is gay.
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Are they insane? If someone said that to me and were serious I'd be scanning for the exit so I could flee at the drop of a hat.
 
Bert_ said:
What's the % spent on pensions and healthcare out of interest? The US military budget is enormous. 40% of the entire world's military spending unless I'm mistaken? Saying its chronically underfunded sounds absolutely ridiculous on the face of it. But I'm aware you're a lot more clued up on current military matters than most posters on here. Have you got any stats you can share to back that up?

Besides pensions and healthcare, I can imagine a lot of the budget being hoovered up by suppliers etc. It also must cost a lot to simply maintain the shear size and scale of the current force too, even if parts of it are becoming redundant. And downsizing any aspect of it isn't going to go down well.
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The US economy is the world's biggest so it really shouldn't be a surprise that its defence budget is also the world's biggest.
 
berbatrick said:
something worth internalising when debates about messaging and attack ads come up:



the battle is just to frame things on your terms, the actual policy could fall into left or right and it will get support and opposition purely based on framing
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I'll never understand that only 32 percent of Repuplicans think the government should provide health care. It's just bizarre.
 
berbatrick said:
something worth internalising when debates about messaging and attack ads come up:



the battle is just to frame things on your terms, the actual policy could fall into left or right and it will get support and opposition purely based on framing
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I wonder if there'll be any blowback at Trump when he skips the debate. It's obviously going that way now.

As per the assassination attempt, his voter share seems kinda locked in.

I just hope Harris keeps the timeslot and does an interview instead.
 
nimic said:
So you agree with the thesis "the US military is chronically underfunded"?
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I don't know about that. @AfonsoAlves is better suited for that question.

My point is aimed at people who talk about how big the defence budget is and bigger than the rest 10 countries combined and all that jazz, but never add the nuance that the US also has the biggest economy in the world.

I have no problem with folks debating whether the US spending on defence as part of its GDP is too low or big, and how it stacks up to spending on healthcare etc. All valid discussions.
 
nimic said:
Asking @AfonsoAlves if the US spends enough on the military is like asking @Carolina Red if they spend enough on public education. Except in the former case the apparent result is the most powerful military in human history, and in the latter it's states putting slavery apologism in text books.
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What's your point? And why just not quote me directly?
 
VorZakone said:
I don't know about that. @AfonsoAlves is better suited for that question.

My point is aimed at people who talk about how big the defence budget is and bigger than the rest 10 countries combined and all that jazz, but never add the nuance that the US also has the biggest economy in the world.

I have no problem with folks debating whether the US spending on defence as part of its GDP is too low or big, and how it stacks up to spending on healthcare etc. All valid discussions.
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But the US’ GDP isn’t bigger than the next 10 countries in the world, that’s what gives context to their military spending. He didn’t say they’re the biggest military spenders, he said they spend c. 40% of the total. They generate as much GDP as the next 4 biggest countries, but they spend as much on their military as the next 10.

So the general point they’re making without alluding to the specifics is true: the US spend a (relatively) huge amount on the military, so it sounds ridiculous to say they’re chronically underfunded.
 
Brwned said:
But the US’ GDP isn’t bigger than the next 10 countries in the world, that’s what gives context to their military spending. They generate as much GDP as the next 4 biggest countries, but they spend as much on their military as the next 10.

So the general point they’re making without alluding to the specifics is true: the US spend a (relatively) huge amount on the military, so it sounds ridiculous to say they’re chronically underfunded.
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China's defence spending is vague and may be higher than is publicly known.

Then there are GDP vs PPP debates.

Hence, in real terms, the US military budget in 2019 is not larger than the next eleven countries. Rather it is smaller than the next three and similar to the spending of China and Russia combined.
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https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/debating-defence-budgets-why-military-purchasing-power-parity-matters


Regardless, if you like to argue that US spending on its defense as part of GDP is too high, feel free to do so.
 
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VorZakone said:
What's your point? And why just not quote me directly?
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I thought my point was clear, given you're the one who invoked AfonsoAlves. My point is that while he knows a whole lot of  stuff, he is neither objective nor the ultimate arbiter of military spending truth.

As for why I didn't quote you directly, there's no particular reason. You found my post easily enough anyway.
 
Beachryan said:
I'll never understand that only 32 percent of Repuplicans think the government should provide health care. It's just bizarre.
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Any view of minimal government intervention for stuff like healthcare and poverty scares me really, like where are they expecting the help to come from otherwise or do they genuinely want people to die through being poor and ill? Weird, especially when usually they're the Christian type.
 
nimic said:
I thought my point was clear, given you're the one who invoked AfonsoAlves. My point is that while he knows a whole lot of  stuff, he is neither objective nor the ultimate arbiter of military spending truth.

As for why I didn't quote you directly, there's no particular reason. You found my post easily enough anyway.
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He's not the ultimate arbiter but probably better suited to argue to what extent US spending on defence fits its military goals. It's often said the US wants to be capable of fighting 2 wars simultaneously. Is that still the goal? What are the other goals and desires? Is there funding for that?

I'm not implying that his word is final or anything like that.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
So regarding % wise, I don't know. Because DoD and DoVA has it's seperated funding which added together totals slightly over a trillion. The DoD Healthcare and Pensions costing is part of it's Personnel costings, where some of the breakdowns aren't fully available in the public domain. Or it's broken down in some 500 page DoD PDF that I haven't managed to sift through.

But total numbers wise: Personnel Salaries + Active Personnel Healthcare + Pensions + Housing + Veterans Healthcare totals to a number just short of 600 Billion USD

https://department.va.gov/administrations-and-offices/management/budget/#:~:text=The U.S. Department of Veterans,above FY 2024 estimated levels.

https://comptroller.defense.gov/Por...Y2025/FY2025_Budget_Request_Overview_Book.pdf

So let's go through all the chronic shortages of the US right now:

1) Shipbuilding - This is the biggest problem facing the US military right now. There are a lot of reasons that factor in to why US military shipbuilding is in catastrophically bad shape right now, but my main gripe is with the Jones Act and the general lack of political willingness to subsidize the building of new shipyards. This, plus the general malaise of the civilian shipbuilding industry has made the USN unable to expand. In the Cold War, the US could field 600-700 ship fleets. Now, the US Navy is aiming to reach a 400 ship navy by the end of the 2030's. To put into context of how bad this problem is, China at the moment is able to build 6 destroyers a year, the US is able to build 1.5. China is able to build 5 Submarines a year, US is able to build 2. China has put out 2 new aircraft carriers (with a further one currently undergoing early stage trials) in 6 years, US in the same time frame has been able to build the USS Gerald R. Ford. In the past 5 years, China has built 21 modern frigates. US has built....none. China has built 8 LHD/LHA's, US has built 2.5. You see how the disparity here is incredibly, incredibly concerning?

2) The state of the Navy in general. There are so so many things wrong with the Navy right now that requires sustained investment of hundreds of billions in order to begin to rectify.

-There is still no active US Frigate since the Oliver Hazard Perry's retired, and until the Constellations are built. This means that bigger ships have to do the duty of frigates, which leads to overworked hulls, degredation (Which leads to further increased costs of R&R) as well as crew fatigue.
- There is still no DDG(X) Program to replace the 45 year old Arleigh Burke hull. Arleigh Burke's have reached the end of their design lifespan.
- There is still no LSC design to replace the Ticonderoga class which reached the end of its service life. LSC should have been completed a decade ago, but due to budget cuts there was never a replacement for the cruisers. What the Navy have done instead is to turn the LSC program into Arleigh Burke Flight III, which is to cram even more engine power into a 45 year old hull, put in flagship modules and add a few more missile tubes and a more power radar to replace the Ticonderga. It's not a real Tico replacement, just a short term stop gap.
- There are not enough sailors, which has led to many fatal accidents this past 5 years, especially to the 7th Fleet.
- There are simply not enough ships in general, again mainly to the 7th fleet, which has led to some horrendous faults.
- The navy simply do not have the money to buy enough F-35C's. What they're doing is praying NGAD FA(XX) comes through and they will buy those instead. If it doesn't, the Navy is screwed in a Pacific war where it has to rely on Superhornets against 5th Gen Chinese Aircraft.

Oh, you know whats funny about the last point? The Navy is delaying its FA(XX) program because...it cannot afford it due to so many other pressing urgent issues! Furthermore, due to the obsolescence of the existing FA18 Hornets, the production lines for them have been shut down. So Navy have no way of procuring current Naval Air Wings, cannot afford F-35's and cannot afford to research FA(XX) to replace the FA18's.

https://breakingdefense.com/2024/03...x-fighter-spending-for-near-term-investments/

https://www.heritage.org/defense/report/the-nation-needs-400-ship-navy#:~:text=To achieve the 400-ship,current long-range shipbuilding plan.





3) The Air Force is not faring any better.

- There is no long term primary Air Superiority Fighter in the works. The primary project for this just got suspended, partly due to lack of funding. Without Airforce NGAD, the USAF is incredibly vulnerable. The lifespan of the F-22 is coming to an end soon and the USAF are still going to have to rely on its baseline F-15's from the 1970's as the main frontline Air Superiority Fighter (Granted, F-15EX is exponentially more modern and better than F15-C's). Congress were so worried USAF were going to retire the F-22 due to lack of scalability and modernization that they actually put a law in that prevented F-22's from being retired.

https://www.airforce-technology.com...ngress-with-f-22-retirement-data-gao/?cf-view

https://meta-defense.fr/en/2024/07/31/chasseur-de-6ᵉ-generation-ngad-suspendu/

- Loyal Wingman integrated networked drones is delayed. This was meant to be the future of the USAF - F-35's and NGAD's supported by autonomous cheap fighter jets that didn't require a pilot and was fully AI controlled. Well, this has been delayed by about 2-3 years now.

https://breakingdefense.com/2023/12/no-bucks-no-bang-secaf-kendall-warns-24-budget-logjam-could-cost-a-year-on-ai-fighter/#:~:text=REAGAN NATIONAL DEFENSE FORUM — The,Force Frank Kendall warned today.

- Lack of any deep penetrative tactical bomber on the horizon. B-21 is a strategic bomber, F117's have been retired, F-35's can do it but are not suitable entirely for that purpose due to lack of payload size, B-1 Lancer's are a mess. There is nothing that will allow for Tactical level deep penetration bombing missions against critical infrastructure. There isn't even a R&D/Research Program to overcome this problem right now.

- Delay in AIM-260 A2A missile. This is meant to be the counter to the PL-15 but it's offset with delay after delay, due to lack of congressional funding and no money to be spent on it.

- The KC Tanker procurement plan is an absolute mess right now.

4) The Army is in okay shape, but it's undergoing a massive modernization program that is being completely underfunded.

- Old M2A2 Bradleys need replacing. XM30 has been given the go-ahead, the Army says they need to procure 4000 of them, just for active service (Forget reserves and backup vehicles). It was meant to be done by 2014, but due to funding issues, got delayed and delayed and the final contract hasn't even been given due to this.
- M113's are being replaced. In 2012 the US Army proposed they need 3000 AMPV's (M128(X) series). It never got funded so we're now in 2024 and it took until 2023 for the FIRST BATTALION of AMPV's to get delivered to the Army.
- MBT Modernization program is going incredibly slowly. It's now a competition between AbramsX and AbramsM1A3X. IF it gets funding, a new MBT might be in service by 2030.
- M109 Paladin's have been earmarked for replacement. A project called M1299 Howitzer was earmarked. Cancelled in 2024. Why? Too expensive relative to its value.

https://www.defensenews.com/land/20...nded-range-cannon-artillery-prototype-effort/

- Light Tank Project finally saw the light of day, with the M10 Booker finally entering service. About 5-8 years too late and not enough funding for mass production yet.
-

https://meta-defense.fr/en/2024/03/12/super-canon-m1299-erca-abandon-us-army/


Man, It's really late and I could go on and on and on about all the issues that need resolving (primarily with desperately needed funding), but I'd be here all night.

I haven't even touched on SM-6 production bottlenecks, LRASM low rate production, Standard Issue Rifle replacement delays and all the other myriad of problems plaguing the US military right now.

The US military is in its worse shape relatively since about 1975.
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Great post, thanks for spending the time to write it.
 
matherto said:
Any view of minimal government intervention for stuff like healthcare and poverty scares me really, like where are they expecting the help to come from otherwise or do they genuinely want people to die through being poor and ill? Weird, especially when usually they're the Christian type.
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Republicans generally take the view that economic outcomes for individuals are purely based on talent and effort. If you are rich you deserve it, and if you are poor you just need to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Any invocation of structural issues in the economy, and solutions to address it, is basically communism to them. It doesn't matter if it's healthcare, education, minimum wages, labor organizing, etc. It's just an inherently warped world view that's been allowed to become fairly mainstream to the point where lots of workers will vote against their own interests. It's wild.
 
VorZakone said:
He's not the ultimate arbiter but probably better suited to argue to what extent US spending on defence fits its military goals. It's often said the US wants to be capable of fighting 2 wars simultaneously. Is that still the goal? What are the other goals and desires? Is there funding for that?

I'm not implying that his word is final or anything like that.
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His word is definitely much more informed than the collective ignorance of Caf that has as much depth on it as memeworthy statements as ‘the US spends on military more than the next 10 countries combined’, without taking into account GDP vs PPP, China spending far more than it claims, and pensions etc being part of the ‘spending in military.

The fact that the bulk of air force is still based on airplanes based on seventies means that relatively speaking, the US military is in the worst state it has been in a very long time. Add to that China’s much faster growth in economy, and consequently in military, means that the advantage the US is quickly shrinking. So for people who prefer a world led by the US, instead of China, yes, the US should spend more on military.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
For a time, yes, America as ‘World Police’ had a point of value. But so many of their population has onboarded that as a forever message. Oblivious to the fact that their ‘We have so many hammers, we will smash all the global nails’ policy, is baking in a need to keep buying very expensive hammers.
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I think the modern GOP has been quite against being the World Police. Trump even threatened to pull out of NATO.
 
africanspur said:
This seems like quite a weird attack line? Not sure I've ever heard any American talk about MN in any way as anything other than an all-American state?
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It most likely has to do with the large Somalian contingent that lives in & around Minneapolis-St. Paul, the largest in the US.
 
africanspur said:
This seems like quite a weird attack line? Not sure I've ever heard any American talk about MN in any way as anything other than an all-American state?
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It's probably a fairly recent phenomenon, but since Minnesota has a Somali minority, which has gotten national attention through election of Ilhan Omar in the House, there has been some weird conspiracy theories about it lately. Like people thinking that the Minnesota state flag was changed to resemble the flag of Somalia (something that fecking Joe Rogan parroted on his podcast).
 
matherto said:
Any view of minimal government intervention for stuff like healthcare and poverty scares me really, like where are they expecting the help to come from otherwise or do they genuinely want people to die through being poor and ill? Weird, especially when usually they're the Christian type.
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People on the right have been brainwashed into believing government run healthcare will be bad, offer them poor choice and be expensive.

They have no clue that countries they have never heard of have better more affordable healthcare than the US does (and better more affordable education).

On a positive note: the people on the right that are insured through the affordable care act, don’t want to lose this. When republicans tried to repeal it under Trump, there was a huge backlash from their own base as well.

Once you succeed in giving it to them, the battle is mostly over.

This is one of the reasons republicans are abandoning democracy. They can repeal it if they don’t need to worry about reelection.
 
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