2024 U.S. Elections | Trump wins

Eboue said:
i think gazans are suffering a genocide right now. but my point is that it is out of line to do the whole "you dont give a shit about X" when it can be turned right back around on the person saying it
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Yes they are, and in the present that is not going to change because we, currently, have leadership in both parties that don't give two shits about them since it is not politically advantageous to do so. But my point holds, looking forward who offers the least bad path? If you think Trump will be better than Biden on Gaza and Palestinian rights in the future than say so and make the case as to why.
 
WI_Red said:
Yes they are, and in the present that is not going to change because we, currently, have leadership in both parties that don't give two shits about them since it is not politically advantageous to do so. But my point holds, looking forward who offers the least bad path? If you think Trump will be better than Biden on Gaza and Palestinian rights in the future than say so and make the case as to why.
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here's the case: biden is providing essential cover for a genocide. trump went 4 years without doing a genocide. it really is that simple
 
Eboue said:
here's the case: biden is providing essential cover for a genocide. trump went 4 years without doing a genocide. it really is that simple
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So you don't class what was going on in Yemen as genocide or in China?
 
Eboue said:
trump is doing a genocide in china or yemen? i must have missed that
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I didn't say that, I asked a question, do you think what's been happening in Yemen and China for several years is a genocide?
 
Red in STL said:
I didn't say that, I asked a question, do you think what's been happening in Yemen and China for several years is a genocide?
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no here's how it went, you can go back and read it again for yourself.

eboue: trump went 4 years without doing a genocide
red in STL: so you dont think yemen and china are a genocide


are we playing games here?
 
WI_Red said:
Oh look, we're back in fairy tale land where teaching lessons have no consequences. Of course, since you get to sit an ocean away you probably could give less than a shit about those consequences. Whatever, we've had this back and forth multiple times. I don't care how much you deny it, but deep down inside you are totally fine with Trump being the next president because you will get to sit on your couch in Portugal and thing "see Joe, this is what you get for supporting genocide".
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So what are the consequences of your lesson to biden that if he supports genocide you still vote for him? What are he and his party supposed to learn?

And I'm roughly at the same distance from america and gaza, so is there a good reason why I should be more worried about a hypothetical in america than a reality now in gaza?
 
WI_Red said:
He could, and he'd be wrong, but fine, lets take the future of the US out of it and focus on Gaza, because the next President is, in the best case scenario, gont to be no worse then what we have now. If you/ @maniak really think Trump will be better than Biden for Gaza then say so. If you can't then what are you even advocating for? Is your need to teach Joe and the Dems a lesson so important that you would damn those in Gaza to potentially suffer even worse than they are now if Trump and his advisors follow through on what they have been saying?
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Well, if you can say I'm ok with trump, why can't I say you're ok with genocide? If that's the game we're playing, it goes both ways.

Also it's strange you're more worried about trump will be bad for gaza than how biden is currently being bad for gaza. And bad here is the understatement of the year.
 
WI_Red said:
we, currently, have leadership in both parties that don't give two shits about them since it is not politically advantageous to do so
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Spot on, you get it. Dems don't give a shit because their voters don't give a shit either, so there's no political advantage in changing course.
 
maniak said:
Spot on, you get it. Dems don't give a shit because their voters don't give a shit either, so there's no political advantage in changing course.
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I always have. I have never defended Biden or the Dems for their handling of Gaza and I never will. They are wrong and history will not be kind to them.

So now we come to the question of the future and there are unfortunately only two options for America and the world’s future. One option is bad for Palestine but is more in line with my, and probably your, views on domestic and some foreign policy (NATO, Russia, Ukraine, etc.) while the other option is bad for Palestine and diametrically opposed to my, and probably your, viewpoint on pretty much everything. Which option do you want America to chose, because one of them will be chosen.
 
WI_Red said:
I always have. I have never defended Biden or the Dems for their handling of Gaza and I never will. They are wrong and history will not be kind to them.

So now we come to the question of the future and there are unfortunately only two options for America and the world’s future. One option is bad for Palestine but is more in line with my, and probably your, views on domestic and some foreign policy (NATO, Russia, Ukraine, etc.) while the other option is bad for Palestine and diametrically opposed to my, and probably your, viewpoint on pretty much everything. Which option do you want America to chose, because one of them will be chosen.
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How will the democrats change if their voters think they are wrong but still vote for them?
 
Eboue said:
no here's how it went, you can go back and read it again for yourself.

eboue: trump went 4 years without doing a genocide
red in STL: so you dont think yemen and china are a genocide


are we playing games here?
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You are, you won't answer the question
 
maniak said:
How will the democrats change if their voters think they are wrong but still vote for them?
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Slowly, but change happens. Look how things have shifted on marijuana, LGBTQ, health care, etc. it is a slow process that happens when pressure builds from the ground up and when new leaders emerge. None of that helps Palestine now, but if you look at congress there is only one side that has some members who are pushing. The other has members proposing bills that will deport those arrest for protesting against Israel to Gaza for 6 months. There is no quick fix for American politics insane death moral pact with Israel.
 
Eboue said:
heh. ok thats fine. but my question was whether or not trump was doing that
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Yes, yes he was. The US has supplied millions, if not billions, of dollars worth of munitions. Sound familiar? Oh, and it started with Obama. Trump took some of the guide rails off, but they were both complicit.
 
Eboue said:
heh. ok thats fine. but my question was whether or not trump was doing that
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https://theconversation.com/us-comp...emen-spans-obama-trump-administrations-106896

The US contribution
The coalition’s genocide in Yemen would not be possible without the complicity of the U.S. This has been a bipartisan presidential effort, covering both the Obama and Trump administrations.

U.S. arms are being used to kill Yemenis and destroy their country. In 2016, well after the coalition began its genocidal assault on Yemen, four of the top five recipients of U.S. arms sales were members of the coalition.

Other than the sale of arms, perhaps the most significant contribution to the coalition’s ability to commit genocide in Yemen has been the provision of fuel and mid-air refueling of Coalition warplanes, which was halted in early November, 2018. By the middle of 2017, the U.S. had delivered over 67 million pounds of fuel to the coalition and refueled coalition aircraft more than 9,000 times.
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WI_Red said:
Yes, yes he was. The US has supplied millions, if not billions, of dollars worth of munitions. Sound familiar? Oh, and it started with Obama. Trump took some of the guide rails off, but they were both complicit.
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i think that is such an absurd comparison to what is happening in gaza. just think about the fact that china is in that example. is the allegation that trump was giving xi weapons? i thought he was putins gay homosexual lover
 
Eboue said:
heh. ok thats fine. but my question was whether or not trump was doing that
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Well the US was supplying weapons to Saudi under his watch and as far as I know he did bugger all about the China situation, Biden is being criticized and rightfully so but why wasn't Trump? Trump also dropped the Kurds in the brown stuff, probably at the behest of his mate Erdogan
 
WI_Red said:
Slowly, but change happens. Look how things have shifted on marijuana, LGBTQ, health care, etc. it is a slow process that happens when pressure builds from the ground up and when new leaders emerge. None of that helps Palestine now, but if you look at congress there is only one side that has some members who are pushing. The other has members proposing bills that will deport those arrest for protesting against Israel to Gaza for 6 months. There is no quick fix for American politics insane death moral pact with Israel.
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I suppose I would accept that line of thinking if we weren't talking about a genocide where tens of thousands have been slaughtered and biden has done everything in his power to keep it going. This is too serious to adopt a "politics as normal" posture.
 
Red in STL said:
Well the US was supplying weapons to Saudi under his watch and as far as I know he did bugger all about the China situation, Biden is being criticized and rightfully so but why wasn't Trump? Trump also dropped the Kurds in the brown stuff, probably at the behest of his mate Erdogan
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Trump was criticized every single day of the week for literally everything. And rightly so. The difference is that he didn't have an army of people explaining us how it was all very complex. Biden is supporting genocide and he has an army of liberals saying they'll vote for him and everyone else is stupid or idealistic or utopian or whatever.

Those who say they won't vote for a pos, regardless of the letter in front of their name, aren't the hypocrites here.
 
maniak said:
I suppose I would accept that line of thinking if we weren't talking about a genocide where tens of thousands have been slaughtered and biden has done everything in his power to keep it going. This is too serious to adopt a "politics as normal" posture.
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Ok, so back to my question: Which option do you want America to chose? It has to and will be one of them.
 
WI_Red said:
Ok, so back to my question: Which option do you want America to chose? It has to and will be one of them.
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I've explained my position before, my personal morals would not allow me to vote for biden. The rest of the country can do whatever they want.
 
maniak said:
I suppose I would accept that line of thinking if we weren't talking about a genocide where tens of thousands have been slaughtered and biden has done everything in his power to keep it going. This is too serious to adopt a "politics as normal" posture.
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As a matter of interest, were you as vocal as this about what has been happening in Yemen for the last decade or so?
 
Red in STL said:
I'm not looking thru 2k + pages, I'm sure there's criticism but I doubt at the level we're currently seeing in regard to genocide, I certainly don't recall major demonstrations and protests on the streets, BLM yes, Yemen no
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buddy were you living under a rock? there were lots of protests and daily criticism
 
maniak said:
I've explained my position before, my personal morals would not allow me to vote for biden. The rest of the country can do whatever they want.
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I didn’t ask what you would do, I asked you which option you want America to chose. We are going to chose one of those two, so which one is it?
 
Red in STL said:
Most of these are nothing to do with genocide, if you mean just protest of course there were plenty but we are discussing a specific type of protest
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ok so your point is that americans have protested against israel ("our closest ally") more than they have against saudi arabia or china? do i have that right?
 
Eboue said:
ok so your point is that americans have protested against israel ("our closest ally") more than they have against saudi arabia or china? do i have that right?
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Nope - Biden is accused of being complicit in genocide, Trump should have been (probably Obama as well) but isn't, apparently voting for Biden means you support it but voting for Trump isn't seen as supporting it
 
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