2024 U.S. Elections | Trump v Harris

Morty_ said:
I don't understand all the negativity, GOP is a party that hasn't actually had a good election since 2016.

There is nothing inevitable about them.
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You can make a very tenuous argument for 2020, when they had an incumbent that was historically unfpopular, yet managed to keep 50 Senate seats and gained seats in the House.

Overall though, I think people are just a bit tetchy because it seems like Harris campaign has adopted the Biden strategy, which does look mind boggling. Ezra Klein made a good point, I think, in his latest podcast, which is Vance was a better debater to begin with, but he had a lot of practices against attacks because he has gone to a lot of interviews in even hostile territories, while Walz was cocooned for no good reason when part of why he was picked was his media appearances to begin with. It seems like they arent doing all they can to win, but when you see the post debate polls it's really hard to argue that Vance managed to land any real blow, both came out with better favourables and Vance got his election denialism moment.
 
According to CNN, the vote was 51-49 for Vance. That’s a tie. Walz did well. It’s just that Vance did better than expected. He didn’t talk about Childress cats and all of that.

In the end, the real threat to Harris is what’s happening in the Middle East. If she loses, it wouldn’t be because of Walz. He won’t lose the election for her, just like Shapiro wouldn’t have won it for her.
 
ManUtd1999 said:
According to CNN, the vote was 51-49 for Vance. That’s a tie. Walz did well. It’s just that Vance did better than expected. He didn’t talk about Childress cats and all of that.

In the end, the real threat to Harris is what’s happening in the Middle East. If she loses, it wouldn’t be because of Walz. He won’t lose the election for her, just like Shapiro wouldn’t have won it for her.
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Politico snap poll had Walz winning independents 58-42, it even got reported on Faux.

I think the ME stuff is kinda baked in at this point, there's not much more you can do about it. The ILA strike poses a more immediate threat, if on Nov.5 essentials are off the shelves due to the strike then the administration will take a beating, regardless of merit. Don't know what they can do about it either as Biden is on record against Taft-Hartley (rightly so) and they ran a pro labour policy throughout, it's just on brand for D to get fecked by labour despite advocating for them though, one consistent feature of the Trump era.
 
I've kind of made my peace with this: if near or more Americans vote forTrump than in 2020, then he will win.

And there's not much any Democrat could have done about that. If it's true that Americans saw Jan 6th, bleach injections, hurricane sharpies and then the last year of his clear brain melting and STILL vote for him en masse, there's nothing anyone can do.

That kind of stupid cannot be conquered with a great campaign.
 
Beachryan said:
I've kind of made my peace with this: if near or more Americans vote forTrump than in 2020, then he will win.

And there's not much any Democrat could have done about that. If it's true that Americans saw Jan 6th, bleach injections, hurricane sharpies and then the last year of his clear brain melting and STILL vote for him en masse, there's nothing anyone can do.

That kind of stupid cannot be conquered with a great campaign.
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I’m not sure how you can make peace with a potential Trump Presidency when he’s even more angry, unhinged, vindictive and free from the shackles of worrying about being elected again or convicted?

The implications globally are genuinely terrifying. He could conceded Ukraine to Russia and Russia’s imperialistic march on European territory continues and if you think Biden has been bad with regards to Israel and the Middle East, Trump will be 10x worse.
 
Pexbo said:
I’m not sure how you can make peace with a potential Trump Presidency when he’s even more angry, unhinged, vindictive and free from the shackles of worrying about being elected again or convicted?

The implications globally are genuinely terrifying. He could conceded Ukraine to Russia and Russia’s imperialistic march on European territory continues and if you think Biden has been bad with regards to Israel and the Middle East, Trump will be 10x worse.
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I can never be at peace with Trump in the WH. These would be four very long years.

However, the poster that you quoted has a valid point: if there is a significant proportion who want Trump (almost half of the voters) despite all that we saw from him this past decade, then there’s not much to do. Every Democratic nominee and every VP nominee would’ve struggled with that.
 
ManUtd1999 said:
I can never be at peace with Trump in the WH. These would be four very long years.

However, the poster that you quoted has a valid point: if there is a significant proportion who want Trump (almost half of the voters) despite all that we saw from him this past decade, then there’s not much to do. Every Democratic nominee and every VP nominee would’ve struggled with that.
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Honestly, I think the problem America has is that once you get past the bluster and hyperbole from each party, they are fundamentally the same - various levels of right wing, capitalistic to a man and owned by corporations and owned by the military industrial complex.

Half the reason Trump is supported is because of the disparity in wealth and education. Poverty is rife through America and Democrats have never really offered a solution to fix that because despite being accused of being socialists by Repubicans, that couldn’t be further from the truth. They also believe in trickle down economics.

Republicans use every apparatus available to them and every trick in the book to get their policies through. Theres no reason Democrats cannot do the same but they don’t, not because they can’t but because they just don’t care enough to.
 
Pexbo said:
Honestly, I think the problem America has is that once you get past the bluster and hyperbole from each party, they are fundamentally the same - various levels of right wing, capitalistic to a man and owned by corporations and owned by the military industrial complex.

Half the reason Trump is supported is because of the disparity in wealth and education. Poverty is rife through America and Democrats have never really offered a solution to fix that because despite being accused of being socialists by Repubicans, that couldn’t be further from the truth. They also believe in trickle down economics.

Republicans use every apparatus available to them and every trick in the book to get their policies through. Theres no reason Democrats cannot do the same but they don’t, not because they can’t but because they just don’t care enough to.
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That is obviously not true, and it has been elaborated on plenty of times in this thread alone.

You are basically reducing the following to "bluster and hyperbole"

- Abortion rights
- Health care
- LGBTQ rights
- Voting rights
- An actual coup attempt
- GOP's war on the education system
- Climate change
- Ted Cruz' ugly mug

And loads of more craziness that I can't remember on the top of my head
 
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gaffs said:
But no, Harris was worried about being overshadowed by Shapiro and what the left of the party would think about having a Jew on the ticket.
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Sure, like with Bernie Sanders.

Shapiro is creepy, he has a creepy Obama impression, Ellen Greenberg's family reportedly hate him loudy and could have allowed the right to embroil him in the cover up. All that before we even get to his attacks on students and the violent rhetoric in support of Israel.

Walz on the other hand is a salt of the earth everyman who can't debate. Of course the debate bros are losing their shit over his rejection though.
 
SirAF said:
That is obviously not true, and it has been elaborated on plenty of times in this thread alone.

You are basically reducing the following to "bluster and hyperbole"

- Abortion rights
- Health care
- LGBTQ rights
- Voting rights
- An actual coup attempt
- GOP's war on the education system
- Climate change
- Ted Cruz' ugly mug

And loads of more craziness that I can't remember on the top of my head
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Yeah they’re bad. I haven’t said anything other than that - my point is that where are the Democrat’s showing the same political energy and will to fight on the opposite side of the argument?

The point is that they barely do, they campaign on it and against it but when they get into power, rather than using the same political tricks and apparatus to do something about it they’re meek and constantly concede ground to them.

If Democrats fought on issues they claim to support with the same voracity that Republicans do, America would be a much better place. Instead it’s just a bit to hard or inconvenient and Republicans constantly win.
 
SirAF said:
That is obviously not true, and it has been elaborated on plenty of times in this thread alone.

You are basically reducing the following to "bluster and hyperbole"

- Abortion rights
- Health care
- LGBTQ rights
- Voting rights
- An actual coup attempt
- GOP's war on the education system
- Climate change
- Ted Cruz' ugly mug

And loads of more craziness that I can't remember on the top of my head
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Guns
 
dumbo said:
Sure, like with Bernie Sanders.

Shapiro is creepy, he has a creepy Obama impression, Ellen Greenberg's family reportedly hate him loudy and could have allowed the right to embroil him in the cover up. All that before we even get to his attacks on students and the violent rhetoric in support of Israel.

Walz on the other hand is a salt of the earth everyman who can't debate. Of course the debate bros are losing their shit over his rejection though.
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Bernie?

Violent rhetoric in support of Israel? You talking about the essay when he was at college? That would have got zero traction because how exactly are the right going to spin the fact that a Democrat may be pro Israel? More likely that the right would pick up on the fact that Shapiro called Netanyahu “one of the worst leaders of all time.”

I'm not that worried about his debate performance. It was nervy, it was cluttered and he wasn't able to take it to Vance, who he let lie over and over.

What does Walz bring? Who is changing their vote or coming out to vote because of Walz?

As i said earlier. Shapiro has a 65% approval rate in PA. A state that gives you 95% chance of winning the election, should you take it. A brave move not to put him on the ticket.

Now, I did hear that Walz will be going on a large "pop culture" podcast in the coming week. If he goes on Rogan, I will take it back, because I thought the idea of him was being able to convince male voters. As it stands, Walz is most comfortable talking about women's reproductive rights, which Harris kind of has covered.

It doesn't matter. The milk has been spilled. Walz better get out there and start reaching out to bro's and dudes. He needs to be on College Gameday, for example.
 
Pexbo said:
Honestly, I think the problem America has is that once you get past the bluster and hyperbole from each party, they are fundamentally the same - various levels of right wing, capitalistic to a man and owned by corporations and owned by the military industrial complex.

Half the reason Trump is supported is because of the disparity in wealth and education. Poverty is rife through America and Democrats have never really offered a solution to fix that because despite being accused of being socialists by Repubicans, that couldn’t be further from the truth. They also believe in trickle down economics.

Republicans use every apparatus available to them and every trick in the book to get their policies through. Theres no reason Democrats cannot do the same but they don’t, not because they can’t but because they just don’t care enough to.
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This was a better argument in 2016, but the "economic anxiety"-bit has very little credibility anymore, it's not a main reason for Trump's support, it's immigration, racism, and a desire to make the "others" suffer, mixed with a good dose of christian nationalism.

And if I recall, the typical republican isn't any poorer than typical democrat, in fact, since they are typically older, i wouldn't be surprised if they have higher income.

Its been 8 years, i'm way beyond trying to see reason with these people, if some of them wake up from it, great, but that's up to them to find out.
 
Morty_ said:
This was a better argument in 2016, but the "economic anxiety"-bit has very little credibility anymore, it's not a main reason for Trump's support, it's immigration, racism, and a desire to make the "others" suffer, mixed with a good dose of christian nationalism.

And if I recall, the typical republican isn't any poorer than typical democrat, in fact, since they are typically older, i wouldn't be surprised if they have higher income.

Its been 8 years, i'm way beyond trying to see reason with these people, if some of them wake up from it, great, but that's up to them to find out.
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The NYT did a piece on rural voters from Minnesota at a debate watch party, people from Walz old congressional district.

One Obamax2/Trump/Biden -> plan to vote Trump said she voted Trump in 2016 because Obama was inflammatory doesn’t matter R because Ds ‘like to give stuffs away’, and she had to pick up a 2nd job because she doesn’t qualify for benefits, benefits that she would get if she quits her job (which is, err, kinda the point of benefits)

The stupidity of these people knows no bounds, but looking at those talking points you can see where they are lifted from. It’s a massive failure from D and liberal media in general that they ceded the ground in communication to Faux, Sinclair, and right wing radio/podcast. A lie repeated a thousand times become truth, as vouched for and practiced by a certain presidential candidate.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
The NYT did a piece on rural voters from Minnesota at a debate watch party, people from Walz old congressional district.

One Obamax2/Trump/Biden -> plan to vote Trump said she voted Trump in 2016 because Obama was inflammatory doesn’t matter R because Ds ‘like to give stuffs away’, and she had to pick up a 2nd job because she doesn’t qualify for benefits, benefits that she would get if she quits her job (which is, err, kinda the point of benefits)

The stupidity of these people knows no bounds, but looking at those talking points you can see where they are lifted from. It’s a massive failure from D and liberal media in general that they ceded the ground in communication to Faux, Sinclair, and right wing radio/podcast. A lie repeated a thousand times become truth, as vouched for and practiced by a certain presidential candidate.
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The problem with the media you mentioned is that it’s all private.

Billionaires own the media. Billionaires dictate the narrative.

There’s literally nothing Democrats can do about that given the first amendment. Who is rich enough to own a media house and stupid/altrusitic enough to insist on a narrative against their own interest?
 
Pexbo said:
The problem with the media you mentioned is that it’s all private.

Billionaires own the media. Billionaires dictate the narrative.

There’s literally nothing Democrats can do about that given the first amendment. Who is rich enough to own a media house and stupid/altrusitic enough to insist on a narrative against their own interest?
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Rush Limbaugh wasn’t a billionaire when he started out, nor Alex Jones, Ben Shapiro etc.

Regarding legacy media, Fox entered the US in what, the nineties? It’s an abject failure from the liberals in general that nobody caught on and started a similar project. Harris raised 60m in 2 SF fundraisers just last week, let’s not pretend Dems are short of billionaire donors, or they lack the sort of pull to organize local new stations takeover the way Sinclair did, it’s incompetence. Republicans are simply better at communication, practices like direct mail with automated recurrent donation or targeted ads on social media were all their brainchild. Democratic political operatives always live in a bubble of thinking good policies will bring votes, or demographic is destiny, and they’ve repeatedly got egg on their face. Obama’s administration literally avoided talking about a tax rebates they gave the public because they wanted them to spend it instead of save it. Admirable governing, dogshit political messaging.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
Rush Limbaugh wasn’t a billionaire when he started out, nor Alex Jones, Ben Shapiro etc.

Regarding legacy media, Fox entered the US in what, the nineties? It’s an abject failure from the liberals in general that nobody caught on and started a similar project. Harris raised 60m in 2 SF fundraisers just last week, let’s not pretend Dems are short of billionaire donors, or they lack the sort of pull to organize local new stations takeover the way Sinclair did, it’s incompetence. Republicans are simply better at communication, practices like direct mail with automated recurrent donation or targeted ads on social media were all their brainchild. Democratic political operatives always live in a bubble of thinking good policies will bring votes, or demographic is destiny, and they’ve repeatedly got egg on their face. Obama’s administration literally avoided talking about a tax rebates they gave the public because they wanted them to spend it instead of save it. Admirable governing, dogshit political messaging.
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You’re missing the entire point.

Traditional media isn’t cheap and I guarantee that every single political commentator you mentioned has huge backing both financial and networking from corporations and right wing think tanks like the Koch Foundation.


Theres also the human element to it, right wing media is sensational, it excites people and it gets them angry. It’s blockbuster viewing, I just dont think you can have a liberal or progressive network that has that sort of appeal without being inherently untruthful which is supposedly against the code for the left.
 
Pexbo said:
You’re missing the entire point.

Traditional media isn’t cheap and I guarantee that every single political commentator you mentioned has huge backing both financial and networking from corporations and right wing think tanks like the Koch Foundation.


Theres also the human element to it, right wing media is sensational, it excites people and it gets them angry. It’s blockbuster viewing, I just dont think you can have a liberal or progressive network that has that sort of appeal without being inherently untruthful which is supposedly against the code for the left.
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They have a literal billionaire as Governor of Illinois with an estimated personal net worth of $4.3 billions, the whole of Sinclair Broadcast Groups that own 40% of US news stations affiliated with the major networks is estimated at just short of $6 billions. Yes, the Kochs have money, Sheldon Adelson had money, but let’s not pretend Dem donors are paupers, if they want to do it, they can make it happen, they just don’t.

And I absolutely don’t agree that left wing media can’t be exciting. Maddows and Hayes have shows that reach an audience of millions daily, Jon Stewart was the most respected voice in the US as a comedy show host on basic cable, Hasan Piker is top 10 Twitch streamer with live audience of 40-50k consistently, Kyle Kulinski built an audience of over 1 million subscribers starting in his bedroom. There is an audience out there to be reached, the problem is for years Democrats just whined about right wing propaganda without giving them a taste of their own medicine, through their own misplaced belief in institutions.

On other news:



The replies are a hoot.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
And I absolutely don’t agree that left wing media can’t be exciting. Maddows and Hayes have shows that reach an audience of millions daily, Jon Stewart was the most respected voice in the US as a comedy show host on basic cable, Hasan Piker is top 10 Twitch streamer with live audience of 40-50k consistently, Kyle Kulinski built an audience of over 1 million subscribers starting in his bedroom. There is an audience out there to be reached, the problem is for years Democrats just whined about right wing propaganda without giving them a taste of their own medicine, through their own misplaced belief in institutions.
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None of that can compete with the charisma and raw sexual magnetism of Ben Shapiro.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
You can make a very tenuous argument for 2020, when they had an incumbent that was historically unfpopular, yet managed to keep 50 Senate seats and gained seats in the House.

Overall though, I think people are just a bit tetchy because it seems like Harris campaign has adopted the Biden strategy, which does look mind boggling. Ezra Klein made a good point, I think, in his latest podcast, which is Vance was a better debater to begin with, but he had a lot of practices against attacks because he has gone to a lot of interviews in even hostile territories, while Walz was cocooned for no good reason when part of why he was picked was his media appearances to begin with. It seems like they arent doing all they can to win, but when you see the post debate polls it's really hard to argue that Vance managed to land any real blow, both came out with better favourables and Vance got his election denialism moment.
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Completely agree. Vance has been on all the sunday shows for the past couple of months.
I have to think this changes soon. Was it a tactic to hold him, and Harris, back a little for a big push in the final month?

I know Walz has been doing a lot of smaller rallys in the swing states, but why so little TV? I would love to know what the strategy is? It is hard to believe that someone in the campaign is telling them not to do TV.
 
gaffs said:
Completely agree. Vance has been on all the sunday shows for the past couple of months.
I have to think this changes soon. Was it a tactic to hold him, and Harris, back a little for a big push in the final month?

I know Walz has been doing a lot of smaller rallys in the swing states, but why so little TV? I would love to know what the strategy is? It is hard to believe that someone in the campaign is telling them not to do TV.
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Ezra Klein went after the campaign today on just that too, and I'd imagine 100% of the campaign staffers listen to him, so someone is going to be talking about it right now.

Walz shoudl be on every talkshow possible, he's great audio/video.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
They have a literal billionaire as Governor of Illinois with an estimated personal net worth of $4.3 billions, the whole of Sinclair Broadcast Groups that own 40% of US news stations affiliated with the major networks is estimated at just short of $6 billions. Yes, the Kochs have money, Sheldon Adelson had money, but let’s not pretend Dem donors are paupers, if they want to do it, they can make it happen, they just don’t.

And I absolutely don’t agree that left wing media can’t be exciting. Maddows and Hayes have shows that reach an audience of millions daily, Jon Stewart was the most respected voice in the US as a comedy show host on basic cable, Hasan Piker is top 10 Twitch streamer with live audience of 40-50k consistently, Kyle Kulinski built an audience of over 1 million subscribers starting in his bedroom. There is an audience out there to be reached, the problem is for years Democrats just whined about right wing propaganda without giving them a taste of their own medicine, through their own misplaced belief in institutions.

On other news:



The replies are a hoot.
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Ah yes, Hasan Piker who said January 6th was funny and he wants more of it.
 
Pexbo said:
I’m not sure how you can make peace with a potential Trump Presidency when he’s even more angry, unhinged, vindictive and free from the shackles of worrying about being elected again or convicted?

The implications globally are genuinely terrifying. He could conceded Ukraine to Russia and Russia’s imperialistic march on European territory continues and if you think Biden has been bad with regards to Israel and the Middle East, Trump will be 10x worse.
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Because half of the country are not seeing him as "angry, unhinged, vindictive and free from the shackles of worrying about being elected again or convicted". Fox News are not covering that - they cut away from his rallies when he starts ad-libbing. And i bet they didn't cover any details from the Jack Smith indictment.

The "you were better off with Trump" message resonates.

When you think about it, Harris and the Democrats don't have much of a message.

They cant overturn Dobbs, so anyone voting for a woman's right to chose is going to be disappointed when nothing happens.
Not sure what any president can do about grocery prices going up.
She is seen as weak on the border and her only solution is to sign the bill that Trump blocked. Even though that may never come around again.
The Middle East has spiraled out of control in the last year and the US have been powerless to prevent anything.
We are still pumping in billions into Ukraine when most think that it is a fruitless exercise. It feels like it is a socialist jobs program for US workers now.
And for any policy she raises, the repost, which many believe, is "you are in office now, so why have you not done it".

She really is up against it.

Her only advantage really is that she is not Trump. That was enough for Biden to win. But that was when everyone still had the mismanagement of COVID fresh in their minds.
 
Pexbo said:
I’m not sure how you can make peace with a potential Trump Presidency when he’s even more angry, unhinged, vindictive and free from the shackles of worrying about being elected again or convicted?

The implications globally are genuinely terrifying. He could conceded Ukraine to Russia and Russia’s imperialistic march on European territory continues and if you think Biden has been bad with regards to Israel and the Middle East, Trump will be 10x worse.
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What is 10x worse than genocide
 
Beachryan said:
Ezra Klein went after the campaign today on just that too, and I'd imagine 100% of the campaign staffers listen to him, so someone is going to be talking about it right now.

Walz shoudl be on every talkshow possible, he's great audio/video.
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Big fan of Ezra. I would hope they do listen to him. They probably did when they picked Walz.
I will listen to the episode later.

Agree. Get Walz on Rogan. Get him smoking a J!
Said in many times, but he should go on ESPN College GameDay. It is one of the most watched shows by the demographic that Harris isn't reaching.
 
Eboue said:
I dont care about a Trump golf resort. I care about ending the slaughter and biden/harris are perpetuating it.
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You think Trump is going to help in anyway, shape or form?

Not sure how you can blame Harris. What power does a VP have?

I would much rather have Harris in charge. She is far more likely to curb Israel than Trump.
 
VorZakone said:
Ah yes, Hasan Piker who said January 6th was funny and he wants more of it.
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Would you rather that or Charlie Kirk/Matt Walsh/Tim Pool/Candace Owens/Laura Loomer?

An extremely online nepobaby making edgy jokes to Twitch chat while advocating for left wing policies is in my book still better than actual Russian shills disseminating ‘Haitian are eating cats’.
 
gaffs said:
You think Trump is going to help in anyway, shape or form?

Not sure how you can blame Harris. What power does a VP have?

I would much rather have Harris in charge. She is far more likely to curb Israel than Trump.
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10 x 0 likeliness = 0
 
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