2024 U.S. Elections | Trump v Harris

Raoul said:
That’s precisely what we’re doing here. Within the Republican ecosystem, most of them have different approaches, which is why they all can’t all shoehorned into a one size fits all view. Trump and Tim Scott for instance are very different in both policy and demeanor. Same with DeSantis and Christie, and likewise Haley and most of the others.
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You were specifically talking about youngkin. He won the election, but he's still going on and on about CRT and evil brown people at the border. So why should anyone believe in the famous pivot?
 
maniak said:
But generally those who embrace trump don't just do the talk, they also do the walk, so who gives a shit what they think in private if the final result is the same? Voters shouldn't make excuses for them.
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You could say that of DeSantis because he understands the base is still with Trump. The others are completely on their own and most have quietly divested from Trumpism without explicitly announcing it for fear of angering the base. All of these guys are banking on Trump getting indicted and taken off the field of play and don’t want to rock the boat too much until that happens.
 
maniak said:
You were specifically talking about youngkin. He won the election, but he's still going on and on about CRT and evil brown people at the border. So why should anyone believe in the famous pivot?
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I was speaking about diversity of positions across the board. Youngkin is playing the same game they all have to until Trump is indicted.
 
maniak said:
Honestly I don't see why not. Desantis has been mentioned as someone who went anti-woke because he wanted the trump base, but look at what he's doing. Why give them a chance in the first place? Why assume the best when time and time again these people have shown they can't be trusted.
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Who said anything about trusting anyone ? We’re simply discussing where the Republican field are on policy and how they’re positioning themselves to run against Trump. It’s not a particularly complicated proposition.
 
MarylandMUFan said:
Yeah, but it's not like they are now pivoting to center, they are trying to out-Trump Trump which is terrifying.
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Are they ? You could possibly say that on DeSantis but you would struggle to make a convincing argument against the rest.
 
Raoul said:
Are they ? You could possibly say that on DeSantis but you would struggle to make a convincing argument against the rest.
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Can't speak on Youngkin but the others are definitely not close to being as Trumpian as DeSantis
 
I gotta be honest, you just sound really really naive, like you've learned nothing from the last few years.
 
Red in STL said:
Can't speak on Youngkin but the others are definitely not close to being as Trumpian as DeSantis
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Agreed. You could potentially make the case that Pence is to his right on abortion, but when we talk about "Out Trumping Trump" it infers that people are attempting to bombastically behave as Trump has over the past 8 years, in which case, it would be very hard to make that case of any of the rest of the current field.
 
Raoul said:
Agreed. You could potentially make the case that Pence is to his right on abortion, but when we talk about "Out Trumping Trump" it infers that people are attempting to bombastically behave as Trump has over the past 8 years, in which case, it would be very hard to make that case of any of the rest of the current field.
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Don't think there's any potential in Pence and abortion, he is way to the right of Trump, but he always has been and never made a secret of his position.

Trump is a populist, he doesn't really care about his positions unless they let him win or make him some money
 
Red in STL said:
Don't think there's any potential in Pence and abortion, he is way to the right of Trump, but he always has been and never made a secret of his position.

Trump is a populist, he doesn't really care about his positions unless they let him win or make him some money
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That's true, but he isn't averse to going as right wing as he needs to control his base.
 
Raoul said:
Are you suggesting people shouldn't debate the policy differences in various candidates ?
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I'm suggesting people don't be naive in thinking these absolute ghouls will magically pivot into being regular 90s republicans. They are telling you they will do horrible things, so why make excuses for them and thinking "oh he's just saying that to get the votes of the crazies, he'll actually be very moderate when we give them power". It sounds like absolute insanity to me.

You mention youngkin, but he's still on his anti-transgender and anti-crt crusade. He got the votes, he won, why didn't he abandon this shit like you suggest?
 
maniak said:
I gotta be honest, you just sound really really naive, like you've learned nothing from the last few years.
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I gotta say the opposite, you don't seem to understand that this is primary politics, not election politics

To win the nomination these GOP candidates need to retain at least a proportion of Trump's rabid base otherwise they have zero chance if winning

A general election is a different beast all together, Trump couldn't win last time and I rather think he and his ilk couldn't win again either in 2024
 
maniak said:
I'm suggesting people don't be naive in thinking these absolute ghouls will magically pivot into being regular 90s republicans. They are telling you they will do horrible things, so why make excuses for them and thinking "oh he's just saying that to get the votes of the crazies, he'll actually be very moderate when we give them power". It sounds like absolute insanity to me.

You mention youngkin, but he's still on his anti-transgender and anti-crt crusade. He got the votes, he won, why didn't he abandon this shit like you suggest?
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The candidates in primaries will go where the base is because that's where the votes are - which over the past 8 years has been deeply entrenched in Trumpism. If Trump is no longer around, who knows where the base will go next. Ultimately, Republicans can't win the Presidency without getting a lot of independent votes and independents are trending away from anything related to Trump right now.
 
Red in STL said:
I gotta say the opposite, you don't seem to understand that this is primary politics, not election politics

To win the nomination these GOP candidates need to retain at least a proportion of Trump's rabid base otherwise they have zero chance if winning

A general election is a different beast all together, Trump couldn't win last time and I rather think he and his ilk couldn't win again either in 2024
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So, do you think a guy like desantis will abandon his hate policies if he gets elected president? That all this cruelty he is inflicting in florida is just a strategy to get that trump base but he actually doesn't believe it?

Or again youngkin, I've read people saying his anti-trans and anti-crt shit was just about getting the governorship. OK, he won the trump base, he got the position, so why does he keep on going at the same issues?

These guys will be forever dependent on these voters and these policies. They will not change, they will not pivot, this is who they are, because they chose to become it, if it they were different before.
 
maniak said:
So, do you think a guy like desantis will abandon his hate policies if he gets elected president? That all this cruelty he is inflicting in florida is just a strategy to get that trump base but he actually doesn't believe it?

Or again youngkin, I've read people saying his anti-trans and anti-crt shit was just about getting the governorship. OK, he won the trump base, he got the position, so why does he keep on going at the same issues?

These guys will be forever dependent on these voters and these policies. They will not change, they will not pivot, this is who they are, because they chose to become it, if it they were different before.
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The easiest way to figure that out would be to look at his policies as a Congressman
 
Raoul said:
The easiest way to figure that out would be to look at his policies as a Congressman
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Why not look at what he's doing right now? Surely what a politician is is more important than what he was.
 
maniak said:
Why not look at what he's doing right now? Surely what a politician is is more important than what he was.
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Because how candidates run for office when they're pandering for votes in primaries, then in general elections (both of which deal with different sets of voters), isn't always the same as how they govern when they're free from the pressures of having to impress voters.
 
langster said:


Ahhh the US election cycle never fails to amuse me. Roger Stone... :lol:
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Now, Trump is slimmer(if thats the right word) than Christie, but its funny that Trump allies goes after him for his weight, Trump is overweight himself, and apparently lives on fast food.
 
Raoul said:
Because how candidates run for office when they're pandering for votes in primaries, then in general elections (both of which have different voters), isn't always the same as how they govern when they're free from the pressures of having to impress voters.
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I suppose the difference between us is that you seem to believe desantis is pandering now. I think this is the real desantis. If he becomes president is not because he lied to trumpers but because in a general election he lied to moderates. He would be president like he is governor because that's who he is.
 
maniak said:
I suppose the difference between us is that you seem to believe desantis is pandering now. I think this is the real desantis. If he becomes president is not because he lied to trumpers but because in a general election he lied to moderates. He would be president like he is governor because that's who he is.
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That's pretty much most Republicans. The anti-woke agenda is a fairly high priority among the Trump era MAGA base and DeSantis knows this. Other Republicans running are also aware of this, but don't to varying degrees support being as vocal as DeSantis. Trump is obviously purely transactional and will vacillate on policy as long as he believes it will improve his chances at winning.
 
maniak said:
So, do you think a guy like desantis will abandon his hate policies if he gets elected president? That all this cruelty he is inflicting in florida is just a strategy to get that trump base but he actually doesn't believe it?

Or again youngkin, I've read people saying his anti-trans and anti-crt shit was just about getting the governorship. OK, he won the trump base, he got the position, so why does he keep on going at the same issues?

These guys will be forever dependent on these voters and these policies. They will not change, they will not pivot, this is who they are, because they chose to become it, if it they were different before.
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The reasons it continues at State level is because he needs the attention, without it he has no national recognition, average voters in Michigan, Texas and so on would have no idea who he was, and he also has to retain the base, otherwise he won't win the primary
 
Red in STL said:
The reasons it continues at State level is because he needs the attention, without it he has no national recognition, average voters in Michigan, Texas and so on would have no idea who he was, and he also has to retain the base, otherwise he won't win the primary
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I see no indication this is just him playing a character.
 
maniak said:
I see no indication this is just him playing a character.
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As mentioned before, he will tailor his positions around what he thinks the base will like. Its all about manipulating the biggest swath of voters possible who you think are likely to support you, then doubling down as needed.
 
maniak said:
I suppose the difference between us is that you seem to believe desantis is pandering now. I think this is the real desantis. If he becomes president is not because he lied to trumpers but because in a general election he lied to moderates. He would be president like he is governor because that's who he is.
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It very well could be the real DeSantis but he'd never be able to implement the kind of stuff he does in Florida nationally, when it comes to the really fruitcake stuff it never gets thru both houses, if you look back at Trump's time, he only got one real piece of legislation thru Congress, the tax cuts, everything else was talk and bluster, not real legislation
 
Morty_ said:
Now, Trump is slimmer(if thats the right word) than Christie, but its funny that Trump allies goes after him for his weight, Trump is overweight himself, and apparently lives on fast food.
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The hypocrisy, double standards, ignorance, arrogance and absolute lack of self awareness from the right (and the left, just people in general) is staggering, to be honest.

I'm just going to sit back and watch them all tear each other apart this coming election cycle. I have a feeling this one will be far uglier and way more nasty than anything we have seen before. It's also going to split the right in to lots of little factions. They are already there, they just don't know it yet.

Although it will be interesting to see what happens if Trump does go to prison or has to pull out because of legal issues.
 
langster said:
The hypocrisy, double standards, ignorance, arrogance and absolute lack of self awareness from the right (and the left, just people in general) is staggering, to be honest.

I'm just going to sit back and watch them all tear each other apart this coming election cycle. I have a feeling this one will be far uglier and way more nasty than anything we have seen before. It's also going to split the right in to lots of little factions. They are already there, they just don't know it yet.

Although it will be interesting to see what happens if Trump does go to prison or has to pull out because of legal issues.
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The last part is what the others are hoping for, as mad as it is, it's the only way they can win the nomination
 
Watching Joe Biden falling on stage and it's just getting so annoying that the democrats can't stop him running again.

Thanks to him we are going to get DeSantos as President
 
Red in STL said:
It very well could be the real DeSantis but he'd never be able to implement the kind of stuff he does in Florida nationally, when it comes to the really fruitcake stuff it never gets thru both houses, if you look back at Trump's time, he only got one real piece of legislation thru Congress, the tax cuts, everything else was talk and bluster, not real legislation
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That's a different issue. My argument is about what he is and what he wants, even if won't be able to achieve it.
 
maniak said:
That's a different issue. My argument is about what he is and what he wants, even if won't be able to achieve it.
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There are plenty of nutcases on both sides, there are some on the left who want us living in caves
 
maniak said:
But the nutcases on the left have no power whatsoever.
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You do realize this is a democracy, if the citizens want to elect a crazy in to power that's entirely their right, there are plenty of left wing nutjobs that have held power in the past
 
Red in STL said:
You do realize this is a democracy, if the citizens want to elect a crazy in to power that's entirely their right, there are plenty of left wing nutjobs that have held power in the past
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Sure, but we normally don't waste our time worrying about imaginary dangers. Right now the fascist right is a problem. The left is not.
 
maniak said:
Sure, but we normally don't waste our time worrying about imaginary dangers. Right now the fascist right is a problem. The left is not.
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No one on here is worrying about it, you're the only one
 
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