2024 U.S. Elections | Trump v Harris

Raoul said:
That's because Republicans generally don't care what the mainstream media (the liberal media to them) have to say about anything. And Fox, Newsmax, and the rest of the right wing media are obviously not going to call for Trump to drop out because he's their meal ticket to political influence.
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You can call for something. Whether it’s going to be done or not is another matter.

Just like a ceasefire in Gaza: I can call for it, but whether Israel and Hamas do it is another matter.

Just do YOUR part.
 
The media covers Trump. Quite negatively. That is one of the reasons why Trump is an unpopular figure.
 
ManUtd1999 said:
He has been, but now it seems that Trump’s legal troubles, January 6, etc. don’t matter. Only Biden’s age.

And it’s not like Trump is 45 years old.
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Then Biden needs to get the feck out of Dodge!
 
The issue with Biden is not his "age." It is the perception (and likely reality) that he is unfit to do the job as president because of cognitive issues (caused by age).
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
The issue with Biden is not his "age." It is the perception (and likely reality) that he is unfit to do the job as president because of cognitive issues (caused by age).
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Agreed.

Will others have a better chance of beating Trump? If so, who?
 
ManUtd1999 said:
It boils down to these this question:

Relative to Biden, does Newsom/Whitmer/ Harris have a better chance of beating Trump?

I’m not sure.
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In political terms, Biden is dead. He doesn't have a chance of winning. The Dems would be better off with a younger duo who are governors and not mired in DC politics.

Biden has also lost votes to Trump among Black and Hispanic voters over the past four years, which means he has little to no chance of winning even if he were completely lucid and articulate.
 
Raoul said:
In political terms, Biden is dead. He doesn't have a chance of winning. The Dems would be better off with a younger duo who are governors and not mired in DC politics.

Biden has also lost votes to Trump among Black and Hispanic voters over the past four years, which means he has little to no chance of winning even if he were completely lucid and articulate.
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And who you think has a better chance of winning this November?
 
ManUtd1999 said:
Fair enough. Please see my question from the above post: “ Relative to Biden, does Newsom/Whitmer/ Harris have a better chance of beating Trump?”

What do you think?
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I think yes/yes/maybe respectively. I also think that notwithstanding that the Democratic Party has a duty to provide the electorate with a competent candidate. You can't talk about "most important election of our lifetimes", "freedom itself is on the ballot" and then provide voters the animated corpse of Joe Biden as the last champion of democracy. That's not a defence of democracy - its a parody of it - and a great betrayal of the American people to force them to make that choice.
 
The Biden campaign has hidden behind the fact that name recognition is important for general electino polls. And everyone has heard of Biden. In theory that should give him an edge of Whitemer/Harris/Newsom etc.

But(finally) polls are coming out that show all these other candidates - even without the name recognition - are polling better head to head against Trump. That's it. That was the one reason to stick with Biden and it's gone.

It's so incredibly infuriating watching history unfold so obviously, and having no agency to actually do anything about it. Anyone with connections, please use them!!
 
ManUtd1999 said:
Agreed.

Will others have a better chance of beating Trump? If so, who?
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I don't believe the decision should be solely about beating Trump. If Biden is incapable of doing the job then he should not be the nominee. Ideally a nominee would have been picked in a competitive primary. If not then I guess at the convention, or Harris. This is the right thing to do. I would quote Osita Nwanevu, "beyond risking a loss, Biden is contributing to the feeling nothing matters. He is corroding the faith in politics he promised to restore. Even if a replacement candidate went on to lose to Trump, that loss would be better than a Biden one. If Biden stays on, the Democratic Party will spend the next several months lying to itself and the American people in a way that will damage its standing in the long run."

Now, I understand fear of the electoral victory tradeoff. But there is hardly any because Biden is tremendously unpopular.
 
Raoul said:
In political terms, Biden is dead. He doesn't have a chance of winning. The Dems would be better off with a younger duo who are governors and not mired in DC politics.

Biden has also lost votes to Trump among Black and Hispanic voters over the past four years, which means he has little to no chance of winning even if he were completely lucid and articulate.
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What I don't quite understand is why it has been left to so late in the day to realise that Biden age is such a big issue.
Ok. I can see that his performance last week was very poor.
And I do understand that the judgement on Trump may have changed things.
But surely this could have been planned for and the decision taken before now?
 
Buster15 said:
What I don't quite understand is why it has been left to so late in the day to realise that Biden age is such a big issue.
Ok. I can see that his performance last week was very poor.
And I do understand that the judgement on Trump may have changed things.
But surely this could have been planned for and the decision taken before now?
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Probably for a couple of reasons.

First, he had already demonstrated he could beat Trump, all of which happened before Jan 6th and the various other cases Trump has been charged with since leaving office. Therefore the accepted logic was that Biden could simply replicate what he did 4 years ago and run on economics, abortion, and the fear of Trump, and win again.

Second, he had the existing political infrastructure and financial machine of an incumbent President, which gave him a tremendous advantage over potential challengers from within his own party. The priority was always to beat Trump and therefore all of the other potential contenders were incentivized to get behind Biden instead of openly challenge him. Newsom has been running a shadow campaign in case something happened to Biden, but that has been the extent of how far any prominent Dem would go to question Biden's legitimacy.....until now.
 
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Got a news notification from Bloomberg that says Biden considering withdrawing
 
ManUtd1999 said:
I’m sorry, but that’s the double standard right there. Treating him differently than others.

Surely the New York Times can…
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They have. And have proved that the NYT telling Trump to stand down is as meaningful as this thread telling him to stand down.
 
VP89 said:
Got a news notification from Bloomberg that says Biden considering withdrawing
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The ruling of the Supreme Court this week gives him a good reason to exit: “Democracy is on the ballot, out of love for country, etc. I choose not to be a distraction…” Something like that.
 
Raoul said:
Probably for a couple of reasons.

First, he had already demonstrated he could beat Trump, all of which happened before Jan 6th and the various other cases Trump has been charged with since leaving office. Therefore the accepted logic was that Biden could simply replicate what he did 4 years ago and run on economics, abortion, and the fear of Trump, and win again.

Second, he had the existing political infrastructure and financial machine of an incumbent President, which gave him a tremendous advantage over potential challengers from within his own party. The priority was always to beat Trump and therefore all of the other potential contenders were incentivized to get behind Biden instead of openly challenge him. Newsom has been running a shadow campaign in case something happened to Biden, but that has been the extent of how far any prominent Dem would go to question Biden's legitimacy.....until now.
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Understood, thank you for explaining that.
 
Raoul said:
If he drops out, I fully expect a massive push to get behind Harris to replace him, which would be calamatous for the Dems.

The best thing to do would be what James Zogby advocated yesterday, which is to hold a mini primary between now and Aug and nominate whoever comes out on top.
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If Biden drops, Harris should drop too.

One of the problems with the last four years is that Harris was completely diminished and isn’t considered a serious candidate. I hope that I won’t need to vote for her…
 
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ManUtd1999 said:
If Biden drops, Harris should drop too.

One of the problems with the last four years is that Harris was completely diminished that she isn’t considered a serious candidate. I hope that I won’t need to vote for her…
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Biden can be explained with the usual, old age, whatever.
Bit more difficult to explain how Harris was just cast aside though, to media/public, though i certainly wish dems pick another candidate too.
 
Raoul said:
Possibly because the media cycle only covers things in the present, and that means Biden's debate performance which even most Dems concede was calamitous. Trump's trials are far in the distance at this point, and some of them may not even happen if he wins. The bigger priority in terms of coverage right now, is quite correctly, who will replace Biden if/when he drops out.
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Trump stood on the same stage as Biden and lied about every question asked or flat out didnt answer them. He sat there with his casual racism fearmongering about "black jobs" being taken by migrants. That is not the same present that we find ourselves in with Biden is old headlines? Why isn't that just as big if not bigger deal to cover?

Every reputable journalist should be covering every racist comment just as hard as they do Biden's age. You don't handwave it and say oh that's just trump being trump. And of course the MAGA cult won't care and right wing media will ignore it. But that doesnt mean everyone else has to lower the bar for him.

That is not excusing Biden having a bad debate, or not being young and energetic. We know this, we acknowledge this.

I like this comment by Rep Crockett
If Dems found half as much energy to attack MAGA, the real threat, then we’d be good.

For all the geniuses out there who think someone else would be better,
1) explain to me who it is,
2) how they get on the ballot in all 50 states,
3) how they get the money and apparatus together to get this done in 4 months (the over 100 million Biden has on hand doesn’t transfer)
4) how we explain that a random person has been selected… subverting the votes that were casts, because of bad polls.

Dems spend all their time seeking perfection, while Republicans focus on their disastrous agenda & could care less so long as they rig the system in their favor!

USE YOUR ENERGY ADDRESSING PROJECT 2025 & the fact that this Supreme Court has laid the foundation to finalize the full destruction of our democracy!
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Hamnat said:
Trump stood on the same stage as Biden and lied about every question asked or flat out didnt answer them. He sat there with his casual racism fearmongering about "black jobs" being taken by migrants. That is not the same present that we find ourselves in with Biden is old headlines? Why isn't that just as big if not bigger deal to cover?

Every reputable journalist should be covering every racist comment just as hard as they do Biden's age. You don't handwave it and say oh that's just trump being trump. And of course the MAGA cult won't care and right wing media will ignore it. But that doesnt mean everyone else has to lower the bar for him.

That is not excusing Biden having a bad debate, or not being young and energetic. We know this, we acknowledge this.

I like this comment by Rep Crockett
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Trump's comments are covered extensively by the media. See Daniel Dale's CNN post debate fact check of every lie Trump told as an example. The trouble is no one on the right cares about fact checking Trump, and most centrists and lefties are too exhausted by the preceding 8 years to still care why Trump's latest lie is any more relevant than ones he's been repeating for nearly a decade.
 
Raoul said:
Trump's comments are covered extensively by the media. See Daniel Dale's CNN post debate fact check of every lie Trump told as an example. The trouble is no one on the right cares about fact checking Trump, and most centrists and lefties are too exhausted by the preceding 8 years to still care why Trump's latest lie is any more relevant than ones he's been repeating for nearly a decade.
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After the fact checks are not what we are talking about. That was the bigger failing of the Biden camp imo on accepting the debate. They NEVER should have allowed that format. Giving trump unfettered unchecked time to lie was a massive mistake.
It doesn't matter what people are "exhausted" of. You do not stop reporting it because of exhaustion.

The leader of a party being racist and a criminal is ALWAYS relevant.
 
Raoul said:
If he drops out, I fully expect a massive push to get behind Harris to replace him, which would be calamatous for the Dems.

The best thing to do would be what James Zogby advocated yesterday, which is to hold a mini primary between now and Aug and nominate whoever comes out on top.

8:27 to 13:00

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Thanks for sharing. Great idea by James Zogby. I would be very involved if he drops and we have a new ticket, particularly if Whitmer is on it.
 
Hamnat said:
Trump stood on the same stage as Biden and lied about every question asked or flat out didnt answer them. He sat there with his casual racism fearmongering about "black jobs" being taken by migrants. That is not the same present that we find ourselves in with Biden is old headlines? Why isn't that just as big if not bigger deal to cover?

Every reputable journalist should be covering every racist comment just as hard as they do Biden's age. You don't handwave it and say oh that's just trump being trump. And of course the MAGA cult won't care and right wing media will ignore it. But that doesnt mean everyone else has to lower the bar for him.

That is not excusing Biden having a bad debate, or not being young and energetic. We know this, we acknowledge this.

I like this comment by Rep Crockett
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I'll answer Crockett.

1. Preferably Whitmer or Newsom​
2. By being the Democratic nominee come convention​
3. By re-employing Bidens's apparatus through the DNC and, as seems to be feasible, transferring campaign funds to same.​
4. This is a softball. A random person has not been selected. Whitmer is the incredibly popular governor of a swing state she carried by more than 10%. She is an incredibly powerful, brave woman who speaks to the issues and has her finger on the pulse of middle America yadayadayada.​
 
ManUtd1999 said:
It boils down to these this question:

Relative to Biden, does Newsom/Whitmer/ Harris have a better chance of beating Trump?

I’m not sure.
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No.

Had they been in the race at the beginning and become the (presumptive) nominee then yeah but replacing Biden now just looks so weak it'd be impossible.
 
Hamnat said:
Trump stood on the same stage as Biden and lied about every question asked or flat out didnt answer them. He sat there with his casual racism fearmongering about "black jobs" being taken by migrants. That is not the same present that we find ourselves in with Biden is old headlines? Why isn't that just as big if not bigger deal to cover?
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This stuff is covered plenty.

I just don't really get where you are going with this. Voters already think that Donald Trump is a dishonest racist.

In the CBS/YouGov poll, Trump had an 8 pt disadvantage on "told the truth" rating compared to Biden. Only 63% of Republicans thought Trump told the truth in the debate!
 
Ekkie Thump said:
I'll answer Crockett.

1. Preferably Whitmer or Newsome
2. By being the Democratic nominee come convention
3. By re-employing Bidens's apparatus through the DNC and, as seems to be feasible, transferring campaign funds to same.
4. This is a softball. A random person has not been selected. Whitmer is the incredibly popular governor of a swing state she carried by more than 10%. She is an incredibly powerful, brave woman who speaks to the issues and has her finger on the pulse of middle America yadayadayada.
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You cannot transfer the funds she told you that. All Bidens campaign money cannot legally just go to "next person up". Some are saying Harris could though get some of the money because technically she was on the ticket that it was given too. I dont know all the legalese but the Bloomberg article earlier in the week mentioned that.

So all these random names out there would have to come up with millions immediately. On top of the hundreds of millions the DNC already has spent on Biden/Harris. That is not insignificant.

And her point about getting on the ballots is very important. All those red states especially will challenge all the way to the SC to not have to change their ballots. More money needed to fight it while also trying to get the new candidate as much exposure as possible.

All these are not as easy as people are making it seem with a just switch.
 
Hamnat said:
After the fact checks are not what we are talking about. That was the bigger failing of the Biden camp imo on accepting the debate. They NEVER should have allowed that format. Giving trump unfettered unchecked time to lie was a massive mistake.
It doesn't matter what people are "exhausted" of. You do not stop reporting it because of exhaustion.

The leader of a party being racist and a criminal is ALWAYS relevant.
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The debate format was extremely favorable to Biden - no audience and the ability to turn off mikes did not favor Trump at all. Biden simply didn't show up with a functioning brain, and in the process, squandered any advantage the debate format offered.
 
Not replacing him looks weak, imo.

Replacing him now atleast makes them look ruthless and serious .
 
Hamnat said:
You cannot transfer the funds she told you that. All Bidens campaign money cannot legally just go to "next person up". Some are saying Harris could though get some of the money because technically she was on the ticket that it was given too. I dont know all the legalese but the Bloomberg article earlier in the week mentioned that.

So all these random names out there would have to come up with millions immediately. On top of the hundreds of millions the DNC already has spent on Biden/Harris. That is not insignificant.

And her point about getting on the ballots is very important. All those red states especially will challenge all the way to the SC to not have to change their ballots. More money needed to fight it while also trying to get the new candidate as much exposure as possible.

All these are not as easy as people are making it seem with a just switch.
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Biden's campaign funds cannot go to another candidate but they can go to the DNC (edit: it could also operate as its own PAC). It is the trickiest hurdle, but does not seem insurmountable.

On the ballot thing, look up the rules for each and every state if you must. What you will discover is that so long as the DNC follows its own rules whoever is the Democratic nominee come convention will be on the ballot in each and every state.

Crockett is scaremongering.
 
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matherto said:
No.

Had they been in the race at the beginning and become the (presumptive) nominee then yeah but replacing Biden now just looks so weak it'd be impossible.
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Hardly.

I'm confident a Newsom/Whitmer ticket would wipe the floor with Trump.
 
Ekkie Thump said:
Biden's campaign funds cannot go to another candidate but they can go to the DNC. It is the trickiest hurdle, but does not seem insurmountable.

On the ballot thing, look up the rules for each and every state if you must. What you will discover is that so long as the DNC follows its own rules whoever is the Democratic nominee come convention will be on the ballot in each and every state.

Crockett is scaremongering.
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I’m not worried about the freaging money. A new candidate will raise funds. The DNC will help too.

Personally, I’m not fully sure how this whole thing plays out, but I’m not against replacing him. I don’t want to hear about age, completing sentences and Hunter until November. In the other hand, I’m not sure that a new ticket would have a better chance of beating the wannabe king, but in moments like these, sometimes you should gamble.


America is in danger if that guy with orange hair wins!
 
ManUtd1999 said:
It boils down to these this question:

Relative to Biden, does Newsom/Whitmer/ Harris have a better chance of beating Trump?

I’m not sure.
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For Biden to win only 2 things should happen

- Something massive should happen and it would not be because of him but because Trump would feck up "bigly" and therefore, any D candidate would win bc of this feck up.
- The perspective of Trump being president is so awful that people rallies even if it is behind a cat

Outside this options, that has nothing to do with the quality of any D candidate but with how terrible Trump is, Biden has 0 chance to win

If Biden has 0 options of winning that depends on him. As hard as a reasonable new candidate would have it very difficult, it has equally or more chances than Biden to win. So the D should give it a try because at worse it would be the same as Biden
 
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