2024 U.S. Elections | Trump v Harris

Beachryan said:
Listen, you're entirely fine to formulate an opinion on the US President. But if you come on here and try to smear him and fail because you're quoting utter trash, then you should expect some push back. The list of important, well-regarded world leaders who claim Biden is a great person who has endured incredible personal hardship and still dedicated his entire life to public service is incredibly long, but oh great recently-radicalised internet user says he's a hack so let's roll with that.

Meanwhile, Trump stands outside the courtroom yesterday saying he wasn't able to campaign in Iowa for the primary (he was, and did) because he's stuck in court. And over the weekend, he said he'd repeal the first hit to the second ammendment in years, limiting those convicted of domestic violence from purchasing weapons. He also said he'd deport any students caught protesting, put maga judges onto the supreme court, and froze for an extended period of time. But none of that gets covered, because, well, I've no idea to be honest.

I don't agree with Biden at all on the Gazan issue. I wish he wasn't running again, as he's too old. But I wouldn't presume to slander, smear and generally attack a man because I disagree with him on policy issues. Especially one as decorated as Joe Biden.
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Listen. Ill smear him as much as i want. In this instance i rectified when i they told me it was mistaken. That is push back and i accept it. The last poster decided to do it a more aggressive style and i respond accordingly

On the trump bit i think i criticized him quite much more and with a much lower regard than biden. But i find it so redundant to criticize the obvious

Biden is the reason why trump has a chance to win, because he had to step down and not be the worst alternative. And this is his main card. If you dont vote for him, trump will come! Woooohoooo. And that is why am pissed at him



Decorated?for whom and what? For the rig system that he is part of it? Netanyahu has said is a great person? The palestinians sure they think that right? Such a good person

Having a law degree where he cheated on obtaining? Give a break. Is part of the typical politician EVERYWHERE that has sold his values and what he believe to keep ascending. And yes, many are like that but he is the one that is the candidate

And you are defending him. When i am wrong, in this instance and when i am right in many more
 
1. I do not believe that Trump will win the Arab/Muslim vote as the above-mentioned poll suggests. Or, to be more precise, he won't win the Arab/Muslim vote if this community votes as it did in 2020. He may do better (% wise) with this community among those who choose to vote or among those who do not choose "uncommitted". My worry is that many won't show up or simply choose "uncommitted". Northern Virginia has a sizeable Arab community and Baltimore County has a sizeable Muslim (not necessarily Arab) community, and that's what I gather from conversations with people.

2. The Democratic coalition is fractured: in 2016 and 2020, pretty much all minority groups were united against Trump. Muslims and Jews, for example, voted 3-1 or so for Clinton/Biden. Black voters roughly 8-1, etc. Young voters were on board too, and Democrats made gains with White voters in Suburban areas. This time, Muslims and Jews are not necessarily on the same train. Biden's policies have created a deep crack in this coalition, in my view unnecessarily so.

3. In 2020, the death of George Floyd shocked the country, and galvanized activists just before the election. Everyone was there, from whites to blacks, from Jews to Muslims, and so on. The feeling back then that the Democratic coalition stood against that injustice. However, I hear recently questions about the lack of voices from, for example, black/african american activists against what's happening in Gaza. Something like "why doesn't this community rise against the starvation of children in Gaza just like everyone rose against the killing of black people" and "Muslims stood up with black people, but not the other way around", etc. This is bad for Biden and Democrats more generally.

4. Young voters may not be associated with the Democratic party as they did until this year. Many minority voters won't vote for Democrats anytime soon (well beyond 2024).

5. On October 6, 2023, Biden has been in office for 2 years and 9 months. What did he do to advance the Two-State Solution before the attack? Nothing. What did Obama do in 8 years to advance this solution? Nothing too, and Biden was there as well (with a lot of influence on foreign policy). There is frustration there, too, irrespective of the current tragedy in Gaza.

Biden may have just caused serious fracturing of the coalition that any Democrat needs to win important elections. Arabs/Muslims and others may not become Republicans, but many could leave the Democratic party.
 
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ManUtd1999 said:
1. I do not believe that Trump will win the Arab/Muslim vote as the above-mentioned poll suggests. Or, to be more precise, he won't win the Arab/Muslim vote if this community votes as it did in 2020. He may do better (% wise) with this community among those who choose to vote or among those who do not choose "uncommitted". My worry is that many won't show up or simply choose "uncommitted". Northern Virginia has a sizeable Arab community and Baltimore County has a sizeable Muslim (not necessarily Arab) community, and that's what I gather from conversations with people.

2. The Democratic coalition is fractured: in 2016 and 2020, pretty much all minority groups were united against Trump. Muslims and Jews, for example voted 3-1 or so for Clinton/Biden. Black voters roughly 8-1, etc. Young voters were on board too, and Democrats made gains with White voters in Suburban areas. This time, Muslims and Jews are not necessarily on the same train. Biden's policies have created a deep crack in this coalition, in my view unnecessarily so.

3. In 2020, the death of George Floyd shocked the country, and galvanized activists just before the election. Everyone was there, from whites to blacks, from Jews to Muslims, and so on. The feeling back then that the Democratic coalition stood against that injustice. However, I hear recently questions about the lack of voices from, for example, black/african american activists against what's happening in Gaza. Something like "why doesn't this community rise against the starvation of children in Gaza just like everyone rose against the killing of black people" and "Muslims stood up with black people, but not the other way around", etc. This is bad for Biden and democrats more generally.

4. Young voters may not be associated with the Democratic party as they did until this year. Many minority voters won't vote for Democrats anytime soon (well beyond 2024).

Biden may have just caused serious fracturing of the coalition that any Democrat needs to win important elections. Arabs/Muslims and others may not become Republicans, but many could leave the Democratic party.
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Totally agree with this. The scariest polls at the moment are the black likely voters imo, those are the ones that are most damaging to the dem's coalition.

In the end, current US politics is just really tough for the democrats. The GOP's base is unicultural, steadfast and motivated. And even though it's small (around 35%) it is predictable and reliable. As you say, the dems need to keep largely disparate groups happy and showing up on election day or they lose.

The hardest bit to understand is that a good chunk of the 35% are huge fans of democrat policies, recipients of democrat programs and should 100% be democrat voters...but watch Fox News.
 
calodo2003 said:
:lol:

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Conservatives are just better at politics. If Haley can swing her voters to trump and down ballot republicans....republicans have a better chance of gaining power.

Meanwhile, the other side seems to be suggesting that "well if the Dems lose at least we feel good"
 
Would have bet the house on Biden winning but do think his stance on Israel will cost him now.
 
nimic said:
Bit reductive, isn't it?
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Haley basically ran against him arguing he was a dementia-riddled crook that fecked the country. She realises that down ballot races control the country and wants republicans to control government. So they close ranks and make sure they have the best chance of doing that.

The opposition to biden within the party is "he's old and senile and we don't like his position on X/Y/Z so we'll make it known that we aren't voting for him at every chance we get". Which is bound up in a very surface level appeal to feeling good about taking a particular position and not thinking about any other consequences. You don't hear the democratic opposition Biden talking about how they will stop GOP control of the whole congress, or how to stop trump/republicans getting a lifetime control of the supreme court. They only talk about their particular issue of the moment and the righteousness of their position.

One side talks a big game and they closes ranks, the other runs around looking for their next media bite to call for Biden to step down from the ticket.
 
WPMUFC said:
The opposition to biden within the party is "he's old and senile and we don't like his position on X/Y/Z so we'll make it known that we aren't voting for him at every chance we get".
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Pretty sure it’s because Biden is helping to fund the biggest genocide of the 21st century.
 
WPMUFC said:
Conservatives are just better at politics. If Haley can swing her voters to trump and down ballot republicans....republicans have a better chance of gaining power.

Meanwhile, the other side seems to be suggesting that "well if the Dems lose at least we feel good"
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Sanders famously endorsed Trump and made Hillary lose :(
 
berbatrick said:
So the left-wing politician did exactly the right-wing politician did, which you decided to use as an opportunity to scold the left :)
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Actually, whilst i'd say a majority of my scolding would (currently) be focused on the left's argument against Biden, the "right" within the party is just as stupid. The manchin/sinema crap that has plagued his entire presidency, the continual "op-eds" about moving on from biden before it's too late, has done nothing but harm his relection. Sanders does it the best, "heres all my issues, but here's why we need to win". Until the entire party is on that footing, they are only helping republicans. Haley limited her scolding to the debates and then pivoted. when is the democratic pivot coming?
 
WPMUFC said:
Actually, whilst i'd say a majority of my scolding would (currently) be focused on the left's argument against Biden, the "right" within the party is just as stupid. The manchin/sinema crap that has plagued his entire presidency, the continual "op-eds" about moving on from biden before it's too late, has done nothing but harm his relection. Sanders does it the best, "heres all my issues, but here's why we need to win". Until the entire party is on that footing, they are only helping republicans. Haley limited her scolding to the debates and then pivoted.
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I think a lot of of voters - of both parties - are disappointed or disgusted with their nominees for various reasons, and that these endorsements don't matter much to the more principled and ideological people on both sides (a loud anti-endorsement would matter more broadly).
 
MrMarcello said:
It's already claimed more lives than the Yemen genocide?
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It’s just not about the death pure numbers. Have to take into account how small Gaza is and the intensity of the Israeli force


From November -

Interactive_Children-in-Conflict-zones_3-01-1699365653.jpg


Also the reported numbers for all these is going to be lower than the actual number.
calodo2003 said:
Darfur?
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The peak monthly killings rate(Dystopian sentence)is similar to Darfur

Israel’s peak monthly killing rate of civilians in Gaza is roughly equivalent to that in Darfur, and higher than in the other two recent cases, all of which our government labeled “genocide”. Israel’s attacks have also displaced the vast majority of Gaza’s more than 2 million civilians, a human flood similar to or exceeding that in the other cases. Israel’s constraints on humanitarian aid have inflicted the highest starvation risk anywhere in the world in decades, according to the UN.

https://theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/16/gaza-civilian-deaths-genocide
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If the US votes in a diaper pensioner Nazi, anything after that is irrelevant. Not a serious country.
 
Rightnr said:
If the US votes in a diaper pensioner Nazi, anything after that is irrelevant. Not a serious country.
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Well, unfortunately we need to teach Joe a lesson so get ready for more Trump. It’s the only moral thing to do I’ve been told.
 
Sweet Square said:
It’s just not about the death pure numbers. Have to take into account how small Gaza is and the intensity of the Israeli force


From November -

Interactive_Children-in-Conflict-zones_3-01-1699365653.jpg


Also the reported numbers for all these is going to be lower than the actual number.

The peak monthly killings rate(Dystopian sentence)is similar to Darfur
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That is horrifying. It should be noted that direct combat related children deaths in Yemen were reported as high as 11000+, and it has been estimated that more than 85000 under age five died during the war through famine, malnutrition, disease, and other causes indirectly related to the consequences of war. An estimate had 130 dying per day in 2016-17 from famine. In 2022, UNICEF reported that more than 500000 children under age five were malnourished and struggling for survival.

I'm curious if there is data being gathered on the indirect deaths in Gaza as they may well exceed Yemen and others should this conflict carry forward for months and days.

https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/more-11000-children-killed-or-injured-yemen
https://abcnews.go.com/Internationa...-death-save-children-report/story?id=59340453
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_in_Yemen_(2016–present)
 
MrMarcello said:
That is horrifying. It should be noted that direct combat related children deaths in Yemen were reported as high as 11000+, and it has been estimated that more than 85000 under age five died during the war through famine, malnutrition, disease, and other causes indirectly related to the consequences of war. An estimate had 130 dying per day in 2016-17 from famine. In 2022, UNICEF reported that more than 500000 children under age five were malnourished and struggling for survival.

I'm curious if there is data being gathered on the indirect deaths in Gaza as they may well exceed Yemen and others should this conflict carry forward for months and days.

https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/more-11000-children-killed-or-injured-yemen
https://abcnews.go.com/Internationa...-death-save-children-report/story?id=59340453
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_in_Yemen_(2016–present)
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Thanks.
 
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WI_Red said:
Well, unfortunately we need to teach Joe a lesson so get ready for more Trump. It’s the only moral thing to do I’ve been told.
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Is that better or worse than teaching joe the lesson that he can support genocide and people will still vote for him?
 
Why does the Gaza conflict seemingly matter more than the Yemen war? Is it an apples to oranges? Is it the history of the Israel/Palestine conflict that make it the bigger story?

I don't recall many crucifying Obama, Trump, or Biden during the Yemen genocide years nor casting a protest vote against. The US was aiding Saudi operations in many ways, like arms sales and using military special forces. It's never mentioned in the media nor in political attack campaigns but is seemingly another bogus stance we (the US) have taken based on geopolitics and economics.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/09/21/us-war-crimes-yemen-stop-looking-other-way
 
maniak said:
You've caused a shortage of straw in your area with this one.
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I'll look past that you've purposely ignored all follow up posts expanding on my initial generalisation. But hey if you want to ignore activists gleefully telling people to "enjoy Trump" or "we ain't voting" based on whatever pet issue they have then it's not my issue.
 
WPMUFC said:
I'll look past that you've purposely ignored all follow up posts expanding on my initial generalisation. But hey if you want to ignore activists gleefully telling people to "enjoy Trump" or "we ain't voting" based on whatever pet issue they have then it's not my issue.
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I assumed you were talking about folks on the caf.
 
MrMarcello said:
Why does the Gaza conflict seemingly matter more than the Yemen war? Is it an apples to oranges? Is it the history of the Israel/Palestine conflict that make it the bigger story?

I don't recall many crucifying Obama, Trump, or Biden during the Yemen genocide years nor casting a protest vote against. The US was aiding Saudi operations in many ways, like arms sales and using military special forces. It's never mentioned in the media nor in political attack campaigns but is seemingly another bogus stance we (the US) have taken based on geopolitics and economics.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/09/21/us-war-crimes-yemen-stop-looking-other-way
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Looking at the timeline the worst in yemen seems to have happened under trump. Not all of course, but the worst.
 
maniak said:
Is that better or worse than teaching joe the lesson that he can support genocide and people will still vote for him?
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Oh look, we're back in fairy tale land where teaching lessons have no consequences. Of course, since you get to sit an ocean away you probably could give less than a shit about those consequences. Whatever, we've had this back and forth multiple times. I don't care how much you deny it, but deep down inside you are totally fine with Trump being the next president because you will get to sit on your couch in Portugal and thing "see Joe, this is what you get for supporting genocide".
 
WI_Red said:
Oh look, we're back in fairy tale land where teaching lessons have no consequences. Of course, since you get to sit an ocean away you probably could give less than a shit about those consequences. Whatever, we've had this back and forth multiple times. I don't care how much you deny it, but deep down inside you are totally fine with Trump being the next president because you will get to sit on your couch in Portugal and thing "see Joe, this is what you get for supporting genocide".
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you sit an ocean away from gaza. he could just as easily say to you that you dont give a shit about the genocide in gaza because you are obsessed with project 2025 or whatever the new thing for msnbc viewers to worry about is
 
Eboue said:
you sit an ocean away from gaza. he could just as easily say to you that you dont give a shit about the genocide in gaza because you are obsessed with project 2025 or whatever the new thing for msnbc viewers to worry about is
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Folks in the US would have to suffer the consequences of Trump, folks in Gaza will suffer whichever one is President
 
Red in STL said:
Folks in the US would have to suffer the consequences of Trump, folks in Gaza will suffer whichever one is President
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i think gazans are suffering a genocide right now. but my point is that it is out of line to do the whole "you dont give a shit about X" when it can be turned right back around on the person saying it
 
Eboue said:
you sit an ocean away from gaza. he could just as easily say to you that you dont give a shit about the genocide in gaza because you are obsessed with project 2025 or whatever the new thing for msnbc viewers to worry about is
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He could, and he'd be wrong, but fine, lets take the future of the US out of it and focus on Gaza, because the next President is, in the best case scenario, gont to be no worse then what we have now. If you/ @maniak really think Trump will be better than Biden for Gaza then say so. If you can't then what are you even advocating for? Is your need to teach Joe and the Dems a lesson so important that you would damn those in Gaza to potentially suffer even worse than they are now if Trump and his advisors follow through on what they have been saying?
 
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