2024 U.S. Elections | Trump v Harris

maniak said:
The issue is probably more with your framing, not wanting a genocide doesn't mean one is anti-israel.
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But a lot of so called anti-Genocide people are also against the concept of an Israeli state. So there is plenty of overlap between the two, and they therefore can't be morally compartmentalized from one another.
 
Raoul said:
But a lot of so called anti-Genocide people are also against the concept of an Israeli state. So there is plenty of overlap between the two, and they therefore can't be morally compartmentalized from one another.
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Do you think people are pretending to be anti-genocide?
 
Raoul said:
But a lot of so called anti-Genocide people are also against the concept of an Israeli state. So there is plenty of overlap between the two, and they therefore can't be morally compartmentalized from one another.
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Sorry mate but that's absolute bullshit and a bit offensive to be honest. "So called" anti-genocide? "So called"? People who don't want genocide are in the same compartment as people who want to destroy the state of israel?
 
Idxomer said:
Do you think people are pretending to be anti-genocide?
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I think most of them want the fighting to stop and believe using framing like genocide will give them some sort of moral advantage in the discussion, when in fact it won't stop anything that's happening on the ground. The only thing that will for the time being, is a hostage deal.
 
maniak said:
The issue is not gaza's genocide per se, is biden supporting it. Is biden supporting russia in killing ukranians? No, so obviously people won't mention it.
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You care about Palestinians. Fair enough. If you cared about Russian you wouldn't blame Biden for supporting Israel but the Ukraine.

However, by indirectly supporting Trump who said he will end the war in 24 hours, according to your logic, you will support genocide in the Ukraine.
 
Idxomer said:
Do you think people are pretending to be anti-genocide?
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This threat is about the US election 2024 but by far the most important topic seems to be the Gaza conflict.
Also I read only about Gaza genocide, not one word or outage about October 7th, which actually caused and started this tragedy.
 
B. Munich said:
This threat is about the US election 2024 but by far the most important topic seems to be the Gaza conflict.
Also I read only about Gaza genocide, not one word or outage about October 7th, which actually caused and started this tragedy.
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Oh boy.
 
B. Munich said:
You care about Palestinians. Fair enough. If you cared about Russian you wouldn't blame Biden for supporting Israel but the Ukraine.

However, by indirectly supporting Trump who said he will end the war in 24 hours, according to your logic, you will support genocide in the Ukraine.
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You lost me in your analogy.

I'm not advocating voting for trump, so I'm not sure what you want from me in that regard. Whatever trump does is the responsibility of his voters. If biden doesn't get the votes of people who don't want him to support genocide, then it's because he kept doing it, he's only got himself to blame.
 
Raoul said:
I think most of them want the fighting to stop and believe using framing like genocide will give them some sort of moral advantage in the discussion, when in fact it won't stop anything that's happening on the ground. The only thing that will for the time being, is a hostage deal.
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Oh so you're still on the "it's not genocide camp". I guess that explains a few things.
 
maniak said:
Oh so you're still on the "it's not genocide camp". I guess that explains a few things.
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You call it a camp. I call it reality. South Africa's once promising ICJ case couldn't even yield anything beyond a "please make sure you don't do any genocide in the future" recommendation to Israel.
 
B. Munich said:
This threat is about the US election 2024 but by far the most important topic seems to be the Gaza conflict.
Also I read only about Gaza genocide, not one word or outage about October 7th, which actually caused and started this tragedy.
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The topic keeps coming up because some people refuse to accept that not voting for a candidate that supports genocide is somehow dumb, when it's aperfectly reasonable democratic decision. You do something that I hate? You don't get my vote.

As for your second sentence, rest assured if biden came out in support for hamas and the oct 7 terrorist attack, I would still not vote for him. But apparently plenty would still do it, because trump.
 
maniak said:
I'm not advocating voting for trump, so I'm not sure what you want from me in that regard. Whatever trump does is the responsibility of his voters. If biden doesn't get the votes of people who don't want him to support genocide, then it's because he kept doing it, he's only got himself to blame
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I never said you voted for Trump. I said by not going to vote for Biden you automatically support Trump.

If you don't vote, it's the same as you just don't care who will be president
 
Raoul said:
You call it a camp. I call it reality. South Africa's once promising ICJ case couldn't even yield anything beyond a "please make sure you don't do any genocide in the future" recommendation to Israel.
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And you love to talk about online bubbles, oh boy, I would love to spend a few hours in yours. The facts, images and reports from the ground are clear. But sure, refuse to acknowledge it so you can use those smart "so called anti-genocide" expressions. I guess when your an "extremist pragmatist", you have to devalue other's moral stances in any way you can. Coping is coping.
 
B. Munich said:
I never said you voted for Trump. I said by not going to vote for Biden you automatically support Trump.

If you don't vote, it's the same as you just don't care who will be president
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Nah that's bs, by not voting for biden I don't support biden and that's it.
 
maniak said:
And you love to talk about online bubbles, oh boy, I would love to spend a few hours in yours. The facts, images and reports from the ground are clear. But sure, refuse to acknowledge it so you can use those smart "so called anti-genocide" expressions. I guess when your an "extremist pragmatist", you have to devalue other's moral stances in any way you can. Coping is coping.
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The facts, images and reports are indicative of a dire humanitarian catastrophe. I'm sure most rational people can agree on this.
 
Raoul said:
I think most of them want the fighting to stop and believe using framing like genocide will give them some sort of moral advantage in the discussion, when in fact it won't stop anything that's happening on the ground. The only thing that will for the time being, is a hostage deal.
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It's not a fighting. It's not a framing either because it's what's happening on the ground and they do have the moral advantage because they want it to stop. The fact is if it doesn't stop, the projected deaths could be up to 200k in the next 5 months. Most of those will be women and children.
 
Idxomer said:
It's not a fighting. It's not a framing either because it's what's happening on the ground and they do have the moral advantage because they want it to stop. The fact is if it doesn't stop, the projected deaths could be up to 200k in the next 5 months. Most of those will be women and children.
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I'm with you 100%. The fighting needs to stop immediately and food and medicine should be allowed in, which is why its critical for a hostage deal to get approved as that is the only way both sides are going to stop fighting (at least for a set period of time).
 
maniak said:
Nah that's bs, by not voting for biden I don't support biden and that's it.
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The world isn't black and white like in the old Hollywood movies.
Biden had to take decisions even, if there is no ideal one.
 
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B. Munich said:
The world isn't black and white line in the old Hollywood movies.
Biden had take decisions even, if there is no ideal one.
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I agree it's not black and white, that's why by not voting for a genocide supporter, I'm not causing women to die during pregnancies or kids being locked in cages at the border. Thinking that would be very black and white.
 
Raoul said:
You call it a camp. I call it reality. South Africa's once promising ICJ case couldn't even yield anything beyond a "please make sure you don't do any genocide in the future" recommendation to Israel.
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You know they actually can't actually make a ruling after their 1st session. How long did it take them to decide on the Bosnia genocide or other cases?

That wasn't what it yielded either. They told them to stop killing Palestinians, facilitate aid, and stop the humanitarian catastrophe. All of which they failed to do that Biden in an attempt to save face and his election prospects after getting embarrassed in Michigan had to resort to airdrops.
 
Idxomer said:
You know they actually can't actually make a ruling after their 1st session. How long did it take them to decide on the Bosnia genocide or other cases?

That wasn't what it yielded either. They told them to stop killing Palestinians, facilitate aid and stop the humanitarian crisis. All of which they failed to do that Biden in an attempt to save face and his election prospects after getting embarrassed in Michigan had to resort to airdrops.
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They also didn't grant South Africa's main request, which was to order Israel to suspend military operations in Gaza and call for a permanent ceasefire. Basically, all that came out of it was a pretty benign request to the Israeli army to prevent acts in the future that might be considered genocide. Will it eventually result in a different ruling years from now ? Hard to say, given we don't know how the rest of this will unfold.
 
B. Munich said:
Then the left or liberals are dumber than I thought. If Trump wins, it will be even worse for the Palestinians.
Thus it would be very shortsighted not to vote as ever no vote is a vote for Trump and MAGA.
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B. Munich said:
This threat is about the US election 2024 but by far the most important topic seems to be the Gaza conflict.
Also I read only about Gaza genocide, not one word or outage about October 7th, which actually caused and started this tragedy.
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You should probably stop calling other people dumb.
 
Raoul said:
They also didn't grant South Africa's main request, which was to order Israel to suspend military operations in Gaza and call for a permanent ceasefire. Basically, all that came out of it was a pretty benign request to the Israeli army to prevent acts in the future that might be considered genocide. Will it eventually result in a different ruling years from now ? Hard to say, given we don't know how the rest of this will unfold.
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It was also about the acts they already committed which made them rule there was enough case for a plausible genocide.
 
maniak said:
I agree it's not black and white, that's why by not voting for a genocide supporter,
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Is Biden also supporting genocide because he rejected a no fly zone over the Ukraine enabling Russia to attack civil targets all over the Ukraine?
 
NotThatSoph said:
You should probably stop calling other people dumb.
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I stand correct. Voting is an unique power citizens of democracies have. Not to exercise ones right to vote is dumb.

In other countries people fight and die to gain the right to vote.
 
B. Munich said:
Is Biden also supporting genocide because he rejected a no fly zone over the Ukraine enabling Russia to attack civil targets all over the Ukraine?
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I mean no? Because in the Ukraine situation, he would be putting American soldiers potentially at risk, as well as risking a nuclear conflict with the world's largest/2nd largest nuclear power, for a country that the USA has no compulsion to protect, on a continent that is not the USA's.....vs saying some nice words about protecting civilian lives, while continuing to provide weapons, as well as diplomatic cover for the country dropping those bombs?

It would make much more sense as a comparison if the USA was providing weapons to Russia....which of course it is not.
 
africanspur said:
I mean no? Because in the Ukraine situation, he would be putting American soldiers potentially at risk, as well as risking a nuclear conflict with the world's largest/2nd largest nuclear power, for a country that the USA has no compulsion to protect, on a continent that is not the USA's...
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That's pretty much the position of Trump. The Ukraine is in Europe gar away, so it's not America's problem let the Europeans deal with it.

In other words he will present Europe to Putin on a silver plate.
 
B. Munich said:
Is Biden also supporting genocide because he rejected a no fly zone over the Ukraine enabling Russia to attack civil targets all over the Ukraine?
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No, that's a military decision, but on the whole biden is on the side of the good guys in that conflict.
 
I think to be honest what keeps on rewinding this conversation

I think nobody is a single issue voter....until it happens to be an isuse important enough to them. I think if the sitiation were reversed and Jews were watching their people getting massacred, I don't think people would have such an issue with them not feeling able to support a candidate who was supplying weapons to the people attacking them, even if the other candidate was theoretically worse on that particular topic.

Someone put it above well, that some people have a floor of what they're willing to vote for. That the candidate doesn't have to be perfect but at least isn't doing things they at a very fundamental level disagree with.

Incidentally, while I cannot vote personally in the US elections, I've got a few friends who are American and many are seriously considering abstaining. None are Muslim or Arab. Some are homosexual. Some are women. All are 'liberal'.

You have to question at that point whether the situation is as simple as people on here are making it out to be about them being dumb or whether the dumb ones are the party who have persisted with this candidate.

As an aside, I actually personally would not blame people who did vote for Biden, because of their fear of Trump. I don't really think the responses though just calling anyone who doesn't think that are stupid, are helpful or accurate.
 
B. Munich said:
That's pretty much the position of Trump. The Ukraine is in Europe gar away, so it's not America's problem let the Europeans deal with it.

In other words he will present Europe to Putin on a silver plate.
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The EU has a combined GDP almost equivalent that of the USA. Basically exactly the same once you factor in the UK, Switzerland and Norway. They have 2 nuclear powers. Italy has a larger GDP than Russia.

Its pretty pathetic if 'Europe' cannot defend itself against Russia (seeing as that's what you're suggesting and not a country at the very edges of Europe).

Also not sure what that has to do with your original point, where you created an equivalence between not agreeing to a NFZ, while still being the largest individual military supporter of Ukraine, and actively providing weapons, money and diplomatic cover, as they do for Israel.
 
To me it's a trolley problem but where multiple victims sit on one track and one victim spans both. I'm a reluctant consequentialist. I don't feel good about it but I pull the lever for Biden every time.
 
Maybe instead of blaming a struggling minority for thratening to abstain America should focus more on fixing it's racism problem that lead to Trump.

Blaming minority voters is probably the most American thing to do though.
 
africanspur said:
The EU has a combined GDP almost equivalent that of the USA. Basically exactly the same once you factor in the UK, Switzerland and Norway. They have 2 nuclear powers. Italy has a larger GDP than Russia.

Its pretty pathetic if 'Europe' cannot defend itself against Russia (seeing as that's what you're suggesting and not a country at the very edges of Europe).

Also not sure what that has to do with your original point, where you created an equivalence between not agreeing to a NFZ, while still being the largest individual military supporter of Ukraine, and actively providing weapons, money and diplomatic cover, as they do for Israel.
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Europe really don't care about Ukraine though, which is a shame, otherwise they would have provided more.

Russia is going all in, Putin took a calculated risk that the west would grow tired, and he was right.

The real test between cowardice and not caring will come in a few years though, when Russia enters the baltics, lets see how we, as in NATO, respond then.
 
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If nothing else this thread highlights that a certain community (generally young, online) view Gaza as a big enough issue as to entirely sway their vote come November. Personally, as someone that has lived a lot in the US, I doubt this extrapolates to the greater voting majority, and is more of a fringe view than certainly the number of posts on here would indicate. Immigration, womens' rights, inflation and fear of facism are all bigger issues to the average voter in the US.

Regardless, there are basically two premises going back and forth here:
1. Voters should be able to abstain from voting (or vote against a candidate) if there is an issue that matters enough to them regardles of consequences in all other areas
2. Voters should vote based on the overall societal outcomes they want to see from their vote

For the record, if there was basically any other candidate on the other side of the Biden v X ticket, I'd suggest that abstaining would be a good way to show the DNC, Biden and whoever the power-weilders up in the ivory towers are that they've messed up on Gaza. But when the alternative is a second Trump term, it's such a phyrric victory. And personally, I wouldn't take any joy in 3 years time when the f*cking country and world are burning saying: "yeah, I sure showed Biden how much he screwed up on Gaza". But that's about all you'll have if you go with that decision.
 
africanspur said:
I think nobody is a single issue voter....until it happens to be an isuse important enough to them. I think if the sitiation were reversed and Jews were watching their people getting massacred, I don't think people would have such an issue with them not feeling able to support a candidate who was supplying weapons to the people attacking them, even if the other candidate was theoretically worse on that particular topic.
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This is a good example because people absolutely believe that. Lots of people argue that Biden's hands are tied because if he behaves otherwise, he'll lose voters. But who are these voters he'll lose? They are not single-issue Israel voters. They are voters who agree with Biden on many things. Yet they are allowed to go back on those things and support Trump because of Israel. That is just a fact of life. Just like Biden acting as he feels like it. That's another fact of life.
 
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Beachryan said:
2. Voters should vote based on the overall societal outcomes they want to see from their vote
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My earlier point, before the conversation somehow became about Gaza again, is that it appears voters do not agree with you on what those outcomes are.

The NYTIMES/Siena poll was posted yesterday. In that poll, 40% of respondents though Trump's policies had favored them personally, and 18% thought the same about Biden's. 25% thought Trump's policies had hurt them personally and 43% though Biden's policies had done the same. 29% in that poll identified as Democrat and 30% identified as Republican. That means at least 13% of respondents who aren't Republicans thought Biden's policies had hurt them personally. It also means that at least a third of Democrats did not feel Biden's policies had favored them personally.

All I'm asking people is to take this stuff seriously. I believe you said voters were cutting off their nose to spite their face. Voters are telling you that Biden has been smearing their face in shit.
 
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1. What policies of Trump helped people? Other than the Tax Cut and Jobs Act (which was a sham), he did nothing. What laws did he sign? But, whatever people say…

2. VP Harris is calling for immediate ceasefire. Great to hear.
 
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