2024 U.S. Elections | Trump v Harris

Biden is an actual supporter of Israel. He has called himself a Zionist. Edward Said referred to him as an adherent of 'right-wing Zionist' vision. According to Menachem Begin, he was willing to call for the killing of women and children in defense of Israel. He has also been reported, re: the current conflict, as "[expressing] bewilderment at what he sees as some liberal Democrats’ criticism of Israel."

There is no reason whatsoever to believe he'd behave any differently if he weren't restrained by these imaginary shackles you are proposing. He fecking loves this shit.
 
Redplane said:
Countries like China, Germany and many others are literally pumping billions into Israel that pales in comparison to the millions going to Gaza. Just because other countries are able to fly under the radar more doesn't mean only the US provides aid. I'd argue the US is simply more transparent (or blatant it you want to use that word im sure) - in where that money ends up.
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I'm not going to check the numbers because it's not really my point. Biden is helping genocide, so he's a sick feck. If others are also doing it, they're sick fecks as well.
 
Abizzz said:
and most democrats have told everyone who would listen that they would stand by Israel for their own entire lives.
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I assume you mean 'Democratic politicians', because Democratic voters don't feel this way at all.
 
Abizzz said:
The mechanism that Israel's enemies have been telling everyone for ~50+ years that they want to wipe it off of the face of the world and most democrats have told everyone who would listen that they would stand by Israel for their own entire lives. It is possible that he could do more to force Netanyahu into a ceasefire, but withdrawing support isn't realistic. It's a no win situation for Biden and while I share the frustration when one looks at the horrors happening in Gaza every day for the last 4 months I don't think withdrawing support now would do anything other than escalate the situation even further.
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It sounds like the mechanism is simply lack of political will. He can't even ask for a ceasefire for humanitarian reasons, the most basic thing possible.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
I assume you mean 'Democratic politicians', because Democratic voters don't feel this way at all.
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Yeah voters don't usually talk about who they will stand with when in office...
maniak said:
It sounds like the mechanism is simply lack of political will. He can't even ask for a ceasefire for humanitarian reasons, the most basic thing possible.
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He's not going to ask for something that he isn't going to get.
 
maniak said:
He has no problem calling for it when it comes to other countries, though, knowing he's not going to get it.
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? The only other ally he could ask currently would be Ukraine and if he did I must have missed that.
 
Redplane said:
Countries like China, Germany and many others are literally pumping billions into Israel that pales in comparison to the millions going to Gaza. Just because other countries are able to fly under the radar more doesn't mean only the US provides aid. I'd argue the US is simply more transparent (or blatant it you want to use that word im sure) - in where that money ends up. It sounds nice to say you're giving humanitarian aid when that does little to deter Israel, while at the same time propping up Israels economic prowess.
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Palestine has recieved billions over the years, enough to have created a new water pipeline amongst other things, instead they’ve chose to pump missiles into Israel. Fcking soending judgment like the glazers.

hey we need a new cm, let’s buy a 100 million dollar RW! Or any
Iker Quesadillas said:
Biden is an actual supporter of Israel. He has called himself a Zionist. Edward Said referred to him as an adherent of 'right-wing Zionist' vision. According to Menachem Begin, he was willing to call for the killing of women and children in defense of Israel. He has also been reported, re: the current conflict, as "[expressing] bewilderment at what he sees as some liberal Democrats’ criticism of Israel."

There is no reason whatsoever to believe he'd behave any differently if he weren't restrained by these imaginary shackles you are proposing. He fecking loves this shit.
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what would you want him to do? Something tells me it doesn’t stop with a ceasefire.


maniak said:
I'm not going to check the numbers because it's not really my point. Biden is helping genocide, so he's a sick feck. If others are also doing it, they're sick fecks as well.
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Biden’s supporting the stabilization of Palestine while also supporting the democracy that is Israel. What happened in Syria was genocide, the Congo. Palestines conflict is in regards to terrorist organizations calling for the final genocide of one of the smallest religions in the world that had an actual genocide of 6,000,000 people…people that didn’t ask for a genocide of the Christian’s, or atheist, or Muslims. Palestines motto has been death to Jews for how long??
 
Abizzz said:
Yeah voters don't usually talk about who they will stand with when in office...
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Many if not most Democrats are to the left of Biden on Israel.

See, "How Biden Became America's Top Israel Hawk":

Biden has long gone further than many of his fellow Democrats in defense of Israel. As a senator, he backed moving the American embassy to Jerusalem decades before Donald Trump made that a reality, boasted about attending more fundraisers for the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) than any other senator, and savaged an effort by George H.W. Bush to push Israel toward negotiating with Palestinians. As vice president, he undercut Barack Obama’s efforts to push Israel toward peace. As president prior to October 7, he continued policies implemented by Trump that sidelined Palestinians.
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In 2010, Netanyahu’s government infuriated Obama and his advisers by announcing a major settlement expansion while Biden was in Israel. As Beinart reported, Biden and his team wanted to handle the dispute privately. Obama’s camp took a different route by drawing up a list of demands to be made of Netanyahu. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton then gave the prime minister 24 hours to respond, warning him, “If you will not be able to comply, it might have unprecedented consequences on the bilateral relations of the kind never seen before.”

Biden was soon in touch with a stunned Netanayhu. A former administration official who saw the transcript of their call told Beinart that “Biden completely undercut the secretary of state and gave [Netanyahu] a strong indication that whatever was being planned in Washington was hotheadedness and he could defuse it when he got back.” When Clinton saw the transcript, she “realized she’d been thrown under the bus” by Biden, the official added.
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During Obama’s final days in office, a United Nations resolution came up that demanded a halt to Israeli settlement activity in the West Bank and other occupied territory. On a call to discuss how the United States should vote at the UN, multiple administration officials told Beinart, only Biden and then–Treasury Secretary Jack Lew supported vetoing the resolution. Unusually, Biden and Lew failed in that effort. Lew is now Biden’s ambassador to Israel.
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He specifically went after other candidates in the 2020 primaries who talked about conditioning aid to Israel, calling it "absolutely outrageous."

Political constraints exist, yes. But Biden does not behave the way he does because of political constraints. This is what he believes in.
 
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It shouldn't need to be said that believing a strong, stable Israel with protected borders does not equal supporting the way that Netanyahu is conducting this retribution. I've given up on the Israel/Palestine thread because it's just twitter-torture-porn with no dissenting opinion, but maybe this thread can have some nuance.

The Jewish people deserve a state, and the one laid out in 1947 is good a place as any. There are just as many Jews that can trace their heritage to that exact land as any other religion. And just as many Jews got booted out of surrounding countries who moved there, and no one speaks of the Jewish right of return to, say, Iran. If you look at borders on a map you're looking at the result of armed conflict or agreements from powerful nations. Doesn't matter on the country.

So I don't think it's crazy to be 'zionist' in the sense that you believe the Jewish state has a right to exist, where it does. That shouldn't be a perjurative, that negates ones subsequent opinions.

That's what I believe, and I assure you I don't 'love this sh*t'.

I think Biden's been put in an impossible political situation, lied to by Netanyahu when he trusted him and is trying to manage it as best he can, while there are a thousand other things that also need his attention. I also think that younger generation's focus on Gaza post October 7th was unexpected certainly by someone at Biden's age. When I read that 25% of 18-24 year olds in the states question if the holocaust happened, I realise I clearly don't understand them either. That's fine.

But this broad painting of Biden being some great perpetrater of 'genocide' is just hollow to me, and screams an incredible naivtiy about the complexity of the issue at hand. Blame Netanyahu for Netanyahu's actions. Blame Hamas for Hamas' actions.
 
maniak said:
What mechanism is stopping biden from asking for a ceasefire through the un, stop sending weapons to kill children or pressuring israel in public for a ceasefire?
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The UN are powerless to do anything about this conflict. It would have to be directly between Biden and Netanyahu and neither are going to do anything because of their own domestic political considerations. The only ceasefire that is plausible is one involving returning the hostages, which is what is being discussed now through the US, Qatar, and Egypt.
 
Abizzz said:
? The only other ally he could ask currently would be Ukraine and if he did I must have missed that.
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Oh so it's specific to countries you support?

It's a bit confusing then because you said the EU also supports israel, but the EU parliament called for a ceasefire. Portugal also supports israel and called for a ceasefire.

It's possible for allies to ask each other to not commit genocide. There is no mechanism, like you implied, that's stopping the biden admin to ask for a ceasefire and support humanitarian aid (because yeah, they also cut funding in the palestinian's hour of greatest need). He could do these things and still support israel's right to exist and self defence, he chose not to do them.

He's the president, he's made his choices, therefore some people thinking he's a sick feck is reasonable in my book.
 
Raoul said:
The UN are powerless to do anything about this conflict. It would have to be directly between Biden and Netanyahu and neither are going to do anything because of their own domestic political considerations. The only ceasefire that is plausible is one involving returning the hostages, which is what is being discussed now through the US, Qatar, and Egypt.
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So, as I said, there is no mechanism whatsoever preventing biden to ask for a ceasefire, it's a political decision. Therefore, it's perfectly valid to criticize him.
 
maniak said:
So, as I said, there is no mechanism whatsoever preventing biden to ask for a ceasefire, it's a political decision. Therefore, it's perfectly valid to criticize him.
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Well yes, they are after all politicians so every decision is made based on some form of political calculus. It would be naive to believe otherwise.
 
Raoul said:
Well yes, they are after all politicians so every decision is made based on some form of political calculus. It would be naive to believe otherwise.
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True, I just see a lot of people using the "biden has his hands tied on this one" argument as an excuse. It's not a valid one.
 
maniak said:
True, I just see a lot of people using the "biden has his hands tied on this one" argument as an excuse. It's not a valid one.
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They are "tied" based on the same political considerations in that its an election year and he can't be perceived domestically as anti-Israel. This is why he's dispatching the likes of Bill Burns and Blinken to arrange a ceasefire in exchange for hostages, which is the only way Netanyahu would stop the fighting at this point.
 
Beachryan said:
I think Biden's been put in an impossible political situation, lied to by Netanyahu when he trusted him and is trying to manage it as best he can, while there are a thousand other things that also need his attention.
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It was impossible for Biden not to trust a corrupt asshole who was openly antagonistic to the president he served under, Barack Obama.

Who could have seen that one coming.
 
Raoul said:
They are "tied" based on the same political considerations in that its an election year and he can't be perceived domestically as anti-Israel. This is why he's dispatching the likes of Bill Burns and Blinken to arrange a ceasefire in exchange for hostages, which is the only way Netanyahu would stop the fighting at this point.
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We don't really know that for sure, though, do we? He's been so vocally pro-israel throughout his career that there's no way to know if his hands are indeed "tied" or if he actually supports what's happening.
 
maniak said:
We don't really know that for sure, though, do we? He's been so vocally pro-israel throughout his career that there's no way to know if his hands are indeed "tied" or if he actually supports what's happening.
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That's true, he is pro-Israel just like every other preceding American President, but that hasn't stopped them from calling for two state solution negotiations in the past. I think he recognizes that the only way to stop the fighting in the present is to create an agreement that both the Israelis and Hamas can agree to, and that will always involve Hamas releasing hostages.
 
maniak said:
Oh so it's specific to countries you support?

It's a bit confusing then because you said the EU also supports israel, but the EU parliament called for a ceasefire. Portugal also supports israel and called for a ceasefire.

It's possible for allies to ask each other to not commit genocide. There is no mechanism, like you implied, that's stopping the biden admin to ask for a ceasefire and support humanitarian aid (because yeah, they also cut funding in the palestinian's hour of greatest need). He could do these things and still support israel's right to exist and self defence, he chose not to do them.

He's the president, he's made his choices, therefore some people thinking he's a sick feck is reasonable in my book.
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Well ye, I thought that was obvious. I mean I can go ask Putin to stop too. There's just no value in it. He may be a sick feck but he lives in a world of political realities where he has to find a way to make whatever he wants work. You do too, only that you, and the majority of this forum these days have an opinion and judgement on every aspect of every political decision but do feck all to actually make your position meaningful to anyone but yourself.
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:
This is a stark reminder that the Electoral College should be set on fire and let to burn to the ground. France are doing perfectly fine with their system of electing a President of the Republic of having a maximum of 2 rounds for as long as one candidate scores above 50% of the total votes across the entire population.
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Ah, to bask in the enlightened glow of France, where wisdom dictates entrusting the reins of Prime Minister to a 34-year-old, unburdened by any real-world experience, who then, in a stroke of sheer brilliance, appoints his ex-partner as the Minister of Foreign Affairs. Truly, a masterclass in avant-garde governance.
 
Abizzz said:
Well ye, I thought that was obvious. I mean I can go ask Putin to stop too. There's just no value in it. He may be a sick feck but he lives in a world of political realities where he has to find a way to make whatever he wants work. You do too, only that you, and the majority of this forum these days have an opinion and judgement on every aspect of every political decision but do feck all to actually make your position meaningful to anyone but yourself.
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Every aspect of every decision? Nah, I just think genocide happens to be a big deal, so yeah, I will judge him on it.

As for your last sentence, I'll take it as projection.
 
maniak said:
We don't really know that for sure, though, do we? He's been so vocally pro-israel throughout his career that there's no way to know if his hands are indeed "tied" or if he actually supports what's happening.
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The issue with the argument is the claim that he "can't be perceived domestically as anti-Israel." The entirety of Trump's political career is good evidence that idea of "what you can and can't be perceived as in U.S. politics" are not that accurate. If they were, he wouldn't have been President and he wouldn't be a credible candidate today. It's a belief rather than a fact, which means the judgment is different.

IMO what actually ties his hands is policy. Biden and his administration want to do Saudi-Israel normalization. That is their priority and their focus, even during the Israel/Gaza war. I'm guessing their view is that taking a hard line against Israel would derail it. It was already reported a while ago that one of Biden's foreign policy guys was floating a 'post-Gaza war' plan that was pretty much entirely 'normalization of Saudi-Israel.'
 
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Raoul said:
The UN are powerless to do anything about this conflict. It would have to be directly between Biden and Netanyahu and neither are going to do anything because of their own domestic political considerations. The only ceasefire that is plausible is one involving returning the hostages, which is what is being discussed now through the US, Qatar, and Egypt.
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Raoul said:
Well yes, they are after all politicians so every decision is made based on some form of political calculus. It would be naive to believe otherwise.
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As usual @Raoul is the voice of reason!
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
The issue with the argument is the claim that he "can't be perceived domestically as anti-Israel." The entirety of Trump's political career is good evidence that idea of "what you can and can't be perceived as in U.S. politics" are not that accurate. If they were, he wouldn't have been President and he wouldn't be a credible candidate today. It's a belief rather than a fact, which means the judgment is different.

IMO what actually ties his hands is policy. Biden and his administration want to do Saudi-Israel normalization. That is their priority and their focus, even during the Israel/Gaza war. I'm guessing their view is that taking a hard line against Israel would derail it. It was already reported a while ago that one of Biden's foreign policy guys was floating a 'post-Gaza war' plan that was pretty much entirely 'normalization of Saudi-Israel.'
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Another aspect to consider is the consequences of US withdrawal of support to Israel, such a move would only encourage the likes of Iran to do something that is not good for anyone
 
Red in STL said:
Another aspect to consider is the consequences of US withdrawal of support to Israel, such a move would only encourage the likes of Iran to do something that is not good for anyone
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Most people only ask for a ceasefire and help people starving, which is basic common sense, and biden can't even ask for that.
 
maniak said:
Most people only ask for a ceasefire and help people starving, which is basic common sense, and biden can't even ask for that.
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Because he knows asking for it wouldn’t mean anything in the absence of Hamas concessions of returning hostages. That’s why you have to negotiate these things with both sides behind the scenes instead of wasting one’s time making meaningless, aspirational quips about how nice it would be to have a ceasefire.
 
Raoul said:
Because he knows asking for it wouldn’t mean anything in the absence of Hamas concessions of returning hostages. That’s why you have to negotiate these things with both sides behind the scenes instead of wasting one’s time making meaningless, aspirational quips about how nice it would be to have a ceasefire.
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You're telling me the commander in chief of the greatest military in the history of this planet going in front of a camera saying "mr netanyahu, enough is enough, we need a ceasefire" would have zero effect on the situation? I mean, you don't believe that.
 
maniak said:
You're telling me the commander in chief of the greatest military in the history of this planet going in front of a camera saying "mr netanyahu, enough is enough, we need a ceasefire" would have zero effect on the situation? I mean, you don't believe that.
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It would have little or no impact, Netanyahu wants to keep his job, if he agreed he'd lose it, Hamas doesn't care, they knew before they launched their attack that caused all this what the response would be
 
Red in STL said:
It would have little or no impact, Netanyahu wants to keep his job, if he agreed he'd lose it, Hamas doesn't care, they knew before they launched their attack that caused all this what the response would be
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I guess it's like @Sweet Square said this afternoon, the us president is at the same time the most powerful man in the world and the world's greatest ****. Go figure.
 
maniak said:
I guess it's like @Sweet Square said this afternoon, the us president is at the same time the most powerful man in the world and the world's greatest ****. Go figure.
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Sorry that title belongs to whichever Tory is Prime Minister in the UK
 
maniak said:
I guess it's like @Sweet Square said this afternoon, the us president is at the same time the most powerful man in the world and the world's greatest ****. Go figure.
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This has been the standard Dem-aligned excuse since I've been following politics. There's always One Weird Reason why anything they attempt will be ineffectual.
 
Red in STL said:
Sorry that title belongs to whichever Tory is Prime Minister in the UK
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I will extend that to every single Tory or Republican who is anyhow elected into the biggest office of any Western democracy these days. If people really believe that Biden or any currently sitting Western leader is bad, they should wait until any of those right-wing populists gets elected.
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:
I will extend that to every single Tory or Republican who is anyhow elected into the biggest office of any Western democracy these days. If people really believe that Biden or any currently sitting Western leader is bad, they should wait until any of those right-wing populists gets elected.
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Can't argue with that :)
 
maniak said:
I guess it's like @Sweet Square said this afternoon, the us president is at the same time the most powerful man in the world and the world's greatest ****. Go figure.
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It’s the most important election ever! Everyone has to vote for Biden! Fascism is one election away! But……also remember President Biden isn’t responsible for anything bad and hasn’t really got any power. Now go out and vote!

Tbh it’s pure democratic brain rot. It’s arguing that Biden isn’t getting enough credit for the “good” economy and then arguing he isn’t in any position of power to stop a genocide the United States is funding.

Also it’s been mentioned on the forum before but democrats love to talk about voting for the lesser of two evils without never accepting the side they are voting for is in fact also evil. When it’s a Democratic president everything suddenly becomes “complex”.
 
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