2021 American Civil War

RedTiger said:
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Gosar is also suspected to be the man that was in one of the top floor windows of the capitol signalling to protestors down below before he either fell off the chair he was on or was pulled back by someone who realised he was being broadcast.
 
RedTiger said:
Similar to Tulsi then.

I'm not a supporter of across the board partisan voting, I believe representatives should vote according to the will of their constituents but damn, rino and dino are funny as shit.
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That's another thing the two-party system exacerbates. Anything that isn't completely uncontroversial becomes partisan.
 
WI_Red said:
To the surprise of no one, except maybe Joe "The Ostrich" Manchin.



Also, this one needs to be voted out ASAP

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If she does it would be for a Republican since anyone to the left of her generally doesn't fare well in AZ politics.
 
Raoul said:
If she does it would be for a Republican since anyone to the left of her generally doesn't fare well in AZ politics.
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I'm not so sure for 2 reasons:
1. She RAN as a progressive.
2. Mark Kelly

I don't expect Warren or Bernie, but a simple establishment Dem (which Kelly is) would suffice
 
WI_Red said:
I'm not so sure for 2 reasons:
1. She RAN as a progressive.
2. Mark Kelly

I don't expect Warren or Bernie, but a simple establishment Dem (which Kelly is) would suffice
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She was known as a wacky lefty early in her political career, but she ran as a centrist against McSally. As did Kelly.

The only recent progressive to run statewide was David Garcia, who got annihilated by Ducey in the 2018 Governors race.
 
Pexbo said:
Gosar is also suspected to be the man that was in one of the top floor windows of the capitol signalling to protestors down below before he either fell off the chair he was on or was pulled back by someone who realised he was being broadcast.
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Gosar needs to forget to breathe for a long, long while.
 
White American Vet who was speaking about how black slaves gave fallen Union soldiers a proper burial had his microphone cut off in Ohio when he was giving a speech on Memorial Day. Unbelievable.
 
I don't know what to think of the current polarization. I've browsed a bit through Twitter and you have all kinds of culture wars going on.
Was it as bad in the 80s and 90s? Or is the liberal-conservative culture war escalating?
 
Culture war is a conservative strategy by design going back at least a few decades. Abortion was one of the original issues, for example. Before it was deliberately chosen as the battle ground, opposition to abortion rights wasn't really a big conservative selling point.
 
Foxbatt said:
White American Vet who was speaking about how black slaves gave fallen Union soldiers a proper burial had his microphone cut off in Ohio when he was giving a speech on Memorial Day. Unbelievable.
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I saw that one. Did they give an explanation for this?
 
VorZakone said:
I don't know what to think of the current polarization. I've browsed a bit through Twitter and you have all kinds of culture wars going on.
Was it as bad in the 80s and 90s? Or is the liberal-conservative culture war escalating?
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Yes and no. There were certainly conservatives as virulently into the culture war as today. The primary difference is the obvious changes from smartphones+social media. Everything is magnified and echo chambers are much easier to form which means the right can more easily work itself into a frenzy over culture war stuff. Another section that would sit on the fence in the 80s-90s or not get embroiled in the culture war now live in a society that helps shift them further right.

Another difference is that the culture war stuff used to be more peripheral to the mainstream Republican party. The 'Rockefeller Republicans', with a focus mostly on just economic policy were dominant. But the hardcore social conservatives focused on trying to shift the party at a grassroots level. A good link from the 80s to the present is this book that was published in 2007 and was quite prescient in looking at many trends that have now exploded:
https://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/13/books/13kaku.html
 
Sentences are now being handed out too participants in the Jan 6th storming of the Capitol. The 1st lady, from Indiana, got a slap on the wrist.
I’m hoping to see some harsher sentences coming down on folks that clearly caused damage and injuries.
 
VorZakone said:
I don't know what to think of the current polarization. I've browsed a bit through Twitter and you have all kinds of culture wars going on.
Was it as bad in the 80s and 90s? Or is the liberal-conservative culture war escalating?
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I think social media just gives people more opportunity to troll and bait each other... "political correctness" was the original trigger word for the current "culture wars"

Its interesting to see how the term "politically correct" went from a sly insider insult from socialists to communists in the 1970's and morphed into a catch all term to trigger political debate by the 1990s and pretty much todays "culture war" is just a continuation of that
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Yes and no. There were certainly conservatives as virulently into the culture war as today. The primary difference is the obvious changes from smartphones+social media. Everything is magnified and echo chambers are much easier to form which means the right can more easily work itself into a frenzy over culture war stuff. Another section that would sit on the fence in the 80s-90s or not get embroiled in the culture war now live in a society that helps shift them further right.

Another difference is that the culture war stuff used to be more peripheral to the mainstream Republican party. The 'Rockefeller Republicans', with a focus mostly on just economic policy were dominant. But the hardcore social conservatives focused on trying to shift the party at a grassroots level. A good link from the 80s to the present is this book that was published in 2007 and was quite prescient in looking at many trends that have now exploded:
https://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/13/books/13kaku.html
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The religious base phenomenon can also be traced to the likes of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. So ironic that the US seperation between church and state has given birth to a religious society that by a number of measures relate more to countries like Iran rather than most of the western nations it would be most natural to compare them with.
 
sun_tzu said:
I think social media just gives people more opportunity to troll and bait each other... "political correctness" was the original trigger word for the current "culture wars"

Its interesting to see how the term "politically correct" went from a sly insider insult from socialists to communists in the 1970's and morphed into a catch all term to trigger political debate by the 1990s and pretty much todays "culture war" is just a continuation of that
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness
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Ramshock said:
How the feck did the Dems let Sinema into the party?
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You don't get "let into the party". You simply run for office as a member of said party which generally works assuming your policies are vaguely similar to the party's platform (which Sinema's are).
 
Carolina Red said:
I dunno. The folks you’re talking about are the ones that actively try to undo / ignore that separation.
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The way I see it the state religions have to move along with the political climate when it’s a part of the state. The US has instead gotten this free enterprising religion, with massive commercialised aspects and megachurches. They might be trying to erase it, but I’d say the divide (coupled with a ton of other factors, obviously) has served to make religion a stronger agent.

Obviously quite speculative, and the US is a different beast to any European country, but whatever, my two cents.
 
Eriku said:
The way I see it the state religions have to move along with the political climate when it’s a part of the state. The US has instead gotten this free enterprising religion, with massive commercialised aspects and megachurches. They might be trying to erase it, but I’d say the divide (coupled with a ton of other factors, obviously) has served to make religion a stronger agent.

Obviously quite speculative, and the US is a different beast to any European country, but whatever, my two cents.
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We do have a long history of “great awakenings” and outlier religious groups coming here or popping up here, and that’s what the evangelical right has been born out of. I guess you could argue that a state religion could have worked to suppress them in the 18th and 19th centuries, but then that’s a whole other alternate timeline that could still lead to us having politicians pushing for Bible-based law codes vs what Western Europe ended up with.
 
Eriku said:
The religious base phenomenon can also be traced to the likes of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. So ironic that the US seperation between church and state has given birth to a religious society that by a number of measures relate more to countries like Iran rather than most of the western nations it would be most natural to compare them with.
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Great point. The whole televangelist movement and then the megachurches and the whole evangelical lobbying movement have played a huge part in the shift of the last 40 years.

I guess you could even draw a line to the whole tent revival movement of the Great Depression as laying the foundation for that too.
 
Ramshock said:
Her actions would suggest shes not in line with the party
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Sadly I am pretty sure she is more in line with the party than you would hope. Everyone talks about Manchin and Sinema, but I would bet my house there are more like them hiding in their shadows.
 
Ramshock said:
feck sake
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Sad but true. Are there more Democrats in congress now with progressive leanings than a decade ago? Sure, but they are still in the minority of the party. It is going to be another generation (if the GOP doesn't break the country) before they can wrestle control. Maybe longer. It is definitely not going to happen with relics like Leahy, Pelosi, Feinstein, and weak centrists like Schumer in power.

This country is either going to break apart or continue its demographic driven move to the left.
 
WI_Red said:
Sad but true. Are there more Democrats in congress now with progressive leanings than a decade ago? Sure, but they are still in the minority of the party. It is going to be another generation (if the GOP doesn't break the country) before they can wrestle control. Maybe longer. It is definitely not going to happen with relics like Leahy, Pelosi, Feinstein, and weak centrists like Schumer in power.

This country is either going to break apart or continue its demographic driven move to the left.
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I agree with the essence of this, though not with some of the implications. (I feel Manchin in particular isn't 'bad' for democracy or the democratic party, and that 'relics' is a bit of a weird term to use given that both Biden and Sanders are relics.) I don't feel the country is any further left than Biden is/wants to be now. Current political wrangling seems strange though; bringing bills you know will fail, just to make a point to manchin? Perhaps leverage for a DC/PR statehood vote, dunno.
 
owlo said:
I agree with the essence of this, though not with some of the implications. (I feel Manchin in particular isn't 'bad' for democracy or the democratic party, and that 'relics' is a bit of a weird term to use given that both Biden and Sanders are relics.) I don't feel the country is any further left than Biden is/wants to be now. Current political wrangling seems strange though; bringing bills you know will fail, just to make a point to manchin? Perhaps leverage for a DC/PR statehood vote, dunno.
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Have you seen Feinstein or Leahy attempt to use complete, coherent and intelligent sentences lately? Leaving aside the fact that Feinstein is an absolute piece of scum (look into her history, it's disgusting), she has no business being a Senator at 88.

Edit: I am an absolute believer in the need for term limits for members of congress, so that is where my "relics" comment came from since they are 3 of the longest tenured Dems and all hold positions of power. you could add Hoyer to that list as well.
 
nimic said:
Sometimes it's easy to forget that this absolutely shocking thing happened just half a year ago. Watching it live was a bizarre experience. Here's a good, thorough overview:

https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/politics/100000007606996/capitol-riot-trump-supporters.html
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I've been thinking about this lately. People will say the current polarization is nothing new and all that. But surely storming the Capital is a different ballgame than anything we've seen in the last 20-30 years?
 
VorZakone said:
I've been thinking about this lately. People will say the current polarization is nothing new and all that. But surely storming the Capital is a different ballgame than anything we've seen in the last 20-30 years?
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It's not as much "nothing new", as it is the natural result of decades of a deliberate right-wing turn towards further authoritarianism through culture war. Which is to say that this was definitely a new high-water mark, but you can draw a logical line backwards and explain how we got here.

It's not over either, despite Trump's loss. It's still very much his party, and he might even become the 2024 nominee if he wants it. He'll probably lose (though it's worth remembering that he gained votes from 2016 to 2020), but the reaction to that loss might be an issue. That's another four years of Big Lie, and preparing the base for the assumption that a loss is the result of treason.
 
MrMarcello said:
Begs the question: Would a 2024 loss and more tripe of a second stolen election result in a larger planned and executed insurrection?
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No, assaulting the capitol was their big play and when it didn't influence Pence to overthrow American democracy the insurrection could not be sustained as it had no real-time leadership and the National Guard could not be delayed indefinitely.

I think the reaction in some circles means we won't see another plausible deniability coup attempt in our lifetimes at least.
 
Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær said:
No, assaulting the capitol was their big play and when it didn't influence Pence to overthrow American democracy the insurrection could not be sustained as it had no real-time leadership and the National Guard could not be delayed indefinitely.

I think the reaction in some circles means we won't see another plausible deniability coup attempt in our lifetimes at least.
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I’m not really worried about a violent coup. I wasn’t even worried on 1/6. I am worried about stuff like the laws in AZ which will allow gerrymandered state legislatures to overturn elections. THAT is how a coup will go in the US. People here have no appetite or strength to mount an actual insurrection. Hell, they lost their minds when asked to where a piece of cloth on their face to protect themselves.
 
WI_Red said:
I’m not really worried about a violent coup. I wasn’t even worried on 1/6. I am worried about stuff like the laws in AZ which will allow gerrymandered state legislatures to overturn elections. THAT is how a coup will go in the US. People here have no appetite or strength to mount an actual insurrection. Hell, they lost their minds when asked to where a piece of cloth on their face to protect themselves.
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Some of that is worrying but states like Arizona don't actually matter.
 
Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær said:
Some of that is worrying but states like Arizona don't actually matter.
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sure they do. AZ, WI, PA, MI, NV, and GA gave Biden the win. Did he need all of them? No. Did he need some of them? Yes. These states are the ones under threat of these types of laws. WI, MI and PA will be/have been “saved” by dem governors vetoing the GOP’s bills. I think both WI and MI’s governors are up in 2022. If those are flipped then we are in serious trouble.
 
WI_Red said:
sure they do. AZ, WI, PA, MI, NV, and GA gave Biden the win. Did he need all of them? No. Did he need some of them? Yes. These states are the ones under threat of these types of laws. WI, MI and PA will be/have been “saved” by dem governors vetoing the GOP’s bills. I think both WI and MI’s governors are up in 2022. If those are flipped then we are in serious trouble.
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Yeah all those other states are more important than Arizona, except maybe Nevada. WI, PA, MI and GA are the key ones.
 
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