DeSantis is already turning FL into a right wing paradise.
2021 American Civil War
- Thread starter Pexbo
- Start date
John Bolton is a horrible self-serving bottom feeder. He was giving opinions on CNN yesterday. He hinted at his own role in fomenting (or trying to) coups in South America. But he said Trump was a one-off. We need to have due process, but not knee-jerk. We should not over-react, to the level where it’s counter productive politically. And while I despise the man, I later thought maybe he has a point.
You can see how the pro-Democracy players have wised up already; for example in the way they handle the hearings. They have made a powerful case for DJT as an agent of sedition. The possibility of a successful prosecution looms larger (though what would the Supreme Court do??).
The question then arises; what should happen to Trump? If he was arrested today, images of that would be frozen forever. He and his cronies would cry foul. It would grow support for extremist and conspiracy hawkers. It would split America.
Right now, he’s on the defensive. The ex president being prosecuted inevitably mixes politics and legislation, questions arise of outcomes; questions of justice but also of security and political stability. That’s their game, to shake the tree. Don’t then, make a martyr of a clown.
Wiser perhaps, in the long run, to keep Trump on the defensive; ignore his stupid social media platform. Keep whittling away at his minions. Get Stone in shackles. DJT’s greatest come-uppance would be irrelevance, not prison. Lawfare have a blog somewhere saying don’t jail Trump even if he is convicted, fine him, block him from office. Let the stain fade away.
You can see how the pro-Democracy players have wised up already; for example in the way they handle the hearings. They have made a powerful case for DJT as an agent of sedition. The possibility of a successful prosecution looms larger (though what would the Supreme Court do??).
The question then arises; what should happen to Trump? If he was arrested today, images of that would be frozen forever. He and his cronies would cry foul. It would grow support for extremist and conspiracy hawkers. It would split America.
Right now, he’s on the defensive. The ex president being prosecuted inevitably mixes politics and legislation, questions arise of outcomes; questions of justice but also of security and political stability. That’s their game, to shake the tree. Don’t then, make a martyr of a clown.
Wiser perhaps, in the long run, to keep Trump on the defensive; ignore his stupid social media platform. Keep whittling away at his minions. Get Stone in shackles. DJT’s greatest come-uppance would be irrelevance, not prison. Lawfare have a blog somewhere saying don’t jail Trump even if he is convicted, fine him, block him from office. Let the stain fade away.
If Trump can be dragged to court, found guilty and finally condemned for his crimes, there would be nothing that extremist and conspiracy hawkers would do to save him. The right was crying foul like hell when Park Geun-hye was in the process of being impeached for her crimes in South Korea, but their complaints went nowhere as 19 people - including several members of Park's administration and Park herself were sent to prison mainly for corruption and abuse of power.
In the eventuality where Trump goes to prison, it might be a first in American history. However, it would not be a first in the Western world as former leaders have been condemned for crimes. Nicolas Sarkozy and François Filion are the most obvious as former French President and Prime Minister respectively.
Stone, Jones, Bannon, Flynn, Giuliani and Powell will be undoubtedly arrested down the road because of their knowledge and their involvement in the coup. However, there is also a matter of a strong message to be sent for the sake of the rule of law. Trump must be treated the same way that anyone else in that situation would be judged, be it in the US or in any other civilized country. That is why justice matters.
I don't see Trump going to prison even if they have clear proof of any crime. You are not condemning Trump, you are condemning a former president of the United States, therefore is recognizing that a criminal ruled the United States, and they will not let this happen for optics and to not to undermine the institution and questioning and let other question anything that happened institutionally in 2016-2020.
It was already undermined once when Nixon was not prosecuted for his crimes in Watergate. You get it wrong here: doing nothing will undermine the institution further instead of raising the standards in the aftermath. Just to remind all of us what a district court judge once said: POTUS is not a king. Hence let's not treat the institution as such.
Good Lord. I can't really believe that a US ex Government official goes on TV and says he helped coups in foreign countries? The Chinese and The Russians are going to have a field day. Certainly the Chinese.
Another point not taken up much is that the two live witnesses, while they had things in common, were there to represent two distinct groups present at the Capitol on Jan 6. One was an ex-spokesman for a paramilitary group. These groups were equipped, co-ordinated, co-operating (apparently a rarity); all with strategic goals; to enable the thuggish objectives of D Trump and his toadies. They moved in military formation, they were part of online meetings, had command structures and brought military ordnance.
The other guy, the cabinet maker, represented ‘ordinary’ folks radicalised by the propaganda machine of Trump, Bannon etc. Country people, or internet consumers, or any of an array of run of the mill conservatives who sincerely believed the Big Lie.
These, it is implied, can be shown to have been cynically manipulated by people who knew the truth. It’s essentially Cheney pointing the way out of the Trump morass for the Republican Party.
The other guy, the cabinet maker, represented ‘ordinary’ folks radicalised by the propaganda machine of Trump, Bannon etc. Country people, or internet consumers, or any of an array of run of the mill conservatives who sincerely believed the Big Lie.
These, it is implied, can be shown to have been cynically manipulated by people who knew the truth. It’s essentially Cheney pointing the way out of the Trump morass for the Republican Party.
You said it yourself. Nothing happened with nixon when it had blatant proofs. POTUS is not king but is one of the most important institutions of the US and the leader of the US. If the leader is corrupt and you condemn him for it, you are recognizing that every decision he took could be suspicious of it
And lets face it, US is very far away to be accountable with anything. With its past with international crimes, with gun accountability and etc... also it will mean that many others supported him in congress and senate being tainted also and that he inbalanced and tainted the SCOTUS (for the next 20-30 years). So basically all the important institutions in US.
They will not do it because basically they are corrupt as well.
When you hear of the equipment and preparation of the extremist groups who breached the police lines and led the crowd into the Capitol building, you wonder what the strategy was, what would have happened if they caught up with figures such as Pence and/or Pelosi? Secret service dead, A pitched battle? Hostage taking? Politicians bound in cable ties?
Trump would have possibly tried to declare a state of emergency. The vote counting would have been delayed. But he would also have come under intense pressure…
Trump would have possibly tried to declare a state of emergency. The vote counting would have been delayed. But he would also have come under intense pressure…
Pretty much.
And so blatantly open about it. Yet they act shocked when the majority of the International community don't accept their narrative.
They aren’t Eco’s 14, but they do work…
it's too simplistic.
the chaos wasn't created by the fascist right. it's been a feature of the system since 2008 and has everything to do with economic depression which has been ongong for 15 years plus the inability of each party to respond to that by meaningful and progressive economic reform. obama, trump, and biden have done nothing of value between them. bush gave $8tn to the military industry. you're looking at the death of an empire or the death of its economic power due to deindustrialization. without a green new deal or new deal america will get worse and worse.
people don't distrust all of these institutions because of fascist propaganda. they distrust them because they aren't trustworthy. of course fascist elements can exploit this sentiment but they did not create it. the democrats and the republicans, the non fascist side, created this mess and their refusal to own it even now continues to play into the hands of the far right.
trump wasn't a one off. he was and still is a symptom of the problem. the problem is economic. it doesn't matter what happens to trump because the economic problems facing the us are not going to fade away whether he runs for office or is in prison. the people who supported trump will support someone else. anyone who promises the same kind of radical rhetoric and economic solution. it's the second that counts. until the 50% of americans who live in poverty or just below that limit no longer face homelessness and everything that comes with disenfranchisement from an economic order then trump is incidental to the broader problem.
the fact is that the democrats and legacy republicans have done far more damage to the american state than trump ever did. without their efforts in destroying the us economic and social order over time, trump would never have been able to exist in the form he did. it's about whether they now understand the impetus surrounding progressive economic legislation which they actually deliver once in office. if they cannot figure that out then the us will resemble a very dire place in the next five to ten years.
To be clear, I was quoting Bolton. Thanks for your insights. I have only visited, not lived there.
I thought you were agreeing with him. no problem but it's just basic stuff really and not limited to the us either.
The OG fascists didn’t create the underlying chaos that allowed for their rise, either. They just created new, targeted chaos to take advantage of it.it's too simplistic.
the chaos wasn't created by the fascist right. it's been a feature of the system since 2008 and has everything to do with economic depression which has been ongong for 15 years plus the inability of each party to respond to that by meaningful and progressive economic reform. obama, trump, and biden have done nothing of value between them. bush gave $8tn to the military industry. you're looking at the death of an empire or the death of its economic power due to deindustrialization. without a green new deal or new deal america will get worse and worse.
people don't distrust all of these institutions because of fascist propaganda. they distrust them because they aren't trustworthy. of course fascist elements can exploit this sentiment but they did not create it. the democrats and the republicans, the non fascist side, created this mess and their refusal to own it even now continues to play into the hands of the far right.
yep, agree with that. people familiar with the irse of fascism in the 20th century will know it to be true. problem being that we seem to have learned none of the lessons from that period. there is a literal blueprint to avoid fascism and it's the one FDR implemented in the 1930s post-depression. we're also in mid-depression and it's been ongoing for over a decade. you either respond by progressive economic policy like FDR's new deal or you leave the door open to fanatic elements.
Besides Trump this is the sleazy prick I’m worried about the most.
I swear that easy parallels can be made between that prick and our own sleazy premier in Quebec. Both are scum.
We were in FL in May and there was so many Trump bumper stickers, T-shirts, flags etc. it was surreal.
An just like during FDR's time you will see the same class/race based tactics to thwart it, but this time they will work due to the ease of message transmission and the effective, and complete, job of splitting the people in half. The concept of "the other" has been a part of elite control over the people since forever.
You're poor? Well it's those other peoples fault and since you are better than them because you are (white/christian/born here/etc.) you need to vote against your best interest to make sure they don't rise above you.
It worked with poor white farmers and emancipated slaves, it worked during the rise of unionization (the Pullman Car company is a classic case), etc.
The Secret Service (who is really starting to look like another org with the same initials) appears to be rotten way down deep.
She appears to be squarely in the enlightening ‘find out’ stage…
Maybe don't take part in the overthrow of a government. Feck her.
Sixty days is nothing in the grand scheme of things. If that woman was part of any other failed coup in the history of mankind, the consequences would have been a lot worse than just 2 months of prison with all medical expenses paid by the government.
If you can storm the capitol, you can spend a couple of months in prison.
Womp womp.
Chat shit get banged up.
this is a blessing. She will have 60 days for nothing but thoughts and prayers, which should get rid of that cancer pronto.
Ecco the Dolphin said that?!
He’s really changed since his Sega days.
He’s really changed since his Sega days.
It might be time to disband the Secret Service and start over......
If there isn't serious restructuring and turnover at the Secret Service, we are completely fecked. The Secret Service operated as another mechanism to protect Trump legally and politically, rather than just physically. The destruction of those records should result in legal consequences to those who ordered it and participated in it.
Seriously, I say it's about time that the USSS deserves to be dismantled and then replaced by a brand new unit of men and women in uniform doing that same job instead. France has the Republican Guard while the British Royal Family has the King's/Queen's Guard. I say it would not be a bad idea to have a new protection unit for POTUS made of people, who are handpicked from the armed forces and thus would answer to the UCMJ (court-martials) if they have committed wrongdoings in the line of duty.
