2020 US Elections | Biden certified as President | Dems control Congress

Status
Not open for further replies.
oneniltothearsenal said:
The only one taking the moral high ground here is you by insulting and making fun of people. Which is fine and all for you personally on Redcafe but when the Dems have been doing it for the last 20 years (starting with Nader in 2000) they really don't get how they are just shooting themselves in the foot.

And also still can't grasp how their adherence to the 1-dimensional political line metaphor harms their thinking more than their realize.


Absolutely. Bernie has been the best thing to happen to the Democrats in 40 years. Hopefully the corporate establishment doesn't kill the momentum.
Click to expand...
I am not taking any moral high-ground, I am just saying that voting for imbeciles (who obviously have no chance of winning in the first place) is not a solution, and I am not sure if it is even a protest vote. Better to write in 'Bernie' (cause that is really a protest against Democrat party who made the primaries as unfair as possible to him).
 
Revan said:
I am not taking any moral high-ground, I am just saying that voting for imbeciles (who obviously have no chance of winning in the first place) is not a solution, and I am not sure if it is even a protest vote. Better to write in 'Bernie' (cause that is really a protest against Democrat party who made the primaries as unfair as possible to him).
Click to expand...

K, that's your opinion. It's others opinion that voting for Kerry, Hilary and Biden is not the solution. Mocking and insulting those people as Gore, Kerry, Hilary and Biden have all done does not help them in any way and only hurts them.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
K, that's your opinion. It's others opinion that voting for Kerry, Hilary and Biden is not the solution. Mocking and insulting those people as Gore, Kerry, Hilary and Biden have all done does not help them in any way and only hurts them.
Click to expand...
Well we insult people who voted for an imbecile (Trump), so why insulting people who vote for an even bigger imbecile is wrong? And yes, Jill Stein might be the one politician in US who is even dumber than Trump.
 
Revan said:
Well we insult people who voted for an imbecile (Trump), so why insulting people who vote for an even bigger imbecile is wrong? And yes, Jill Stein might be the one politician in US who is even dumber than Trump.
Click to expand...

I never said its wrong in that sense. I didn't make a moral judgment.

I said its bad strategy, counterproductive and does more harm to the result you desire than good.
 
Red Dreams said:
Last cycle I voted Green Party. I could have voted the Communist Party or another.

This time IF it is neither Bernie or Warren I will simply write in Bernie's name whether they allow it or not. Basically it will be a non vote.


As to your question, I have answered above.
Click to expand...
Why vote at all? Not voting would have the same effect.
 
Revan said:
Cause a lot of people are racists and idiots, and he fed on them.
Click to expand...

This proves you are the imbecile.

You have learned nothing from what happened last cycle. You swallowed whole the MSM BS.

These people primarily voted Democrat and were lied to for decades. Trump appealed to their fears.

There was a vacuum and he helped fill it.

These same people can be won back, by offering real policies that better their lives.
 
Red Defence said:
Protest vote?
Click to expand...
Doubt it. His fanbase are almost rabbid. They literally love him, for being a racist and for saying things that they want to hear. Johnson* or McMullin (Bush junior voted him) would have been protest votes. Trump totally galvanized most of Republican voters from the beginning to the end.

He's also dumb, but not Stein-dumb.
 
Red Dreams said:
This proves you are the imbecile.

You have learned nothing from what happened last cycle. You swallowed whole the SMS BS.

These people primarily voted Democrat and were lied to for decades. Trump appealed to their fears.

There was a vacuum and he helped fill it.

These same people can be won back, by offering real policies that better their lives.
Click to expand...
Not many Democrats voted Trump. Instead, many Democrats stayed home, while Republicans voted Trump.

You won't get back Trump voters and there is no point on targeting them. If Dems want to win, they should try to make Democrats and Democrat-leaning Independents go and vote.
 
Red Dreams said:
@Revan

Obama won Ohio twice. A Black guy.
Why? He offered policies.

The same 'racists' who then voted Trump.
Click to expand...
You're either missing the point, or you're trying hard to play dumb.

Obama was able to make Democrats vote in large scale. Clinton was not. It isn't that Obama voters suddenly decided to vote for Trump, but instead many of them didn't vote at all (or became smartarses and voted Stein which is the same thing anyway), while Trump was able to make Republicans vote in massive numbers. In fact, Trump got in Ohio only 180k votes more than Romney (which is to be expected considering that the population of US is increasing), but Hillary got 430k votes less than Obama.
 
This is really important to understanding how the Dems can win and how they can feck it up:

"Many expected Hispanics to vote overwhelmingly against Trump in 2016. A Latino Decisions poll conducted just before the 2016 presidential election found Trump had the support of just 18 percent of Hispanics. But the actual figure was 28 percent, which—given Trump’s incendiary rhetoric about immigrants—some analysts and pundits refused to believe from exit polls until further studies confirmed it."
 
Revan said:
You're either missing the point, or you're trying hard to play dumb.

Obama was able to make Democrats vote in large scale. Clinton was not. It isn't that Obama voters suddenly decided to vote for Trump, but instead many of them didn't vote at all (or became smartarses and voted Stein which is the same thing anyway), while Trump was able to make Republicans vote in massive numbers. In fact, Trump got in Ohio only 180k votes more than Romney (which is to be expected considering that the population of US is increasing), but Hillary got 430k votes less than Obama.
Click to expand...

This has been addressed.

I have seen interviews of people who said they voted Obama than Trump.

Also young people who are clearly not racists who voted Trump in spite of his behaviour.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
29% of Hispanics and Asians voted for Trump. 37% of Other race voted for Trump and even 8% of blacks voted for Trump.

Do you believe they all voted for Trump because of racism?
Click to expand...
I also mentioned that many of them are idiots, to be fair.

Trump offered simple solutions to simple people. We will do things better, make America great again, bring jobs back to farmers and truckers and coal miners, everyone will have more money and better insurance etc, but never went into how is he going to do that. A lot of people don't have neither the intellect nor the will to actually delve deeper into how those things are to be achieved. They just saw a successful old white man (in a country where the money is everything) and voted for him. A lot of Trump voters in Trump actually see 'what they would like to be (successful rich people)'.

This notion that politics is mainly a battle of policies is ridiculous. Most of the people don't vote for policies, they vote for people based on personal traits, charisma, the perception of electability and so on. It is why old uncle Joe is doing so well in the polls, or why Trump won. If it was a battle of policies, Warren would easily win both the primaries and the main election.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
This is really important to understanding how the Dems can win and how they can feck it up:

"Many expected Hispanics to vote overwhelmingly against Trump in 2016. A Latino Decisions poll conducted just before the 2016 presidential election found Trump had the support of just 18 percent of Hispanics. But the actual figure was 28 percent, which—given Trump’s incendiary rhetoric about immigrants—some analysts and pundits refused to believe from exit polls until further studies confirmed it."
Click to expand...

These Hispanic votes for Trump come from those who felt immigrants should come in legally like they did.
 
Red Dreams said:
This has been addressed.

I have seen interviews of people who said they voted Obama than Trump.

Also young people who are clearly not racists who voted Trump in spite of his behaviour.
Click to expand...
No, it has not. By just looking at numbers, you see that Trump got more votes than Romney which is to be expected considering the increase on population (and going against a weaker candidate, so those in the middle might have shifted for him), while Clinton got almost half a million votes less than Obama which is inexcusable. The only explanation is that some of the Dems stayed home, not that they suddenly decided to shift from Obama to Trump.
 
Red Dreams said:
People like him are the perfect fodder for the Democratic Party as it is.

They cannot see what is in front of them.

On one side we have people.
On the other side there is ..Evil. Those who live off the blood and death of people.

The choice is simple. But we are supposed to vote for Evil because there is a bigger evil lurking.

These people have no depth to them.

The only way out of the vicious cycle is not to accept their choice.

btw I believe Bernie's real goal this and the last cycle was to bring greater awareness to Progressive ideas. I believe he has succeeded.
I still think he has a good chance at being president.

We are aways away.
Click to expand...


You do know that doesn't work unless nobody votes which will never happen so yes all you achieve is allowing the biggest evil to win every time and things will just continue to get worse
 
Revan said:
No, it has not. By just looking at numbers, you see that Trump got more votes than Romney which is to be expected considering the increase on population (and going against a weaker candidate, so those in the middle might have shifted for him), while Clinton got almost half a million votes less than Obama which is inexcusable. The only explanation is that some of the Dems stayed home, not that they suddenly decided to shift from Obama to Trump.
Click to expand...

The Dems were also significantly more factionalized in 2016 than in 2012. In 12, there was still a degree of party unity that propelled and benefitted the nominee. By 16, that had devolved into a tribal food fight that justified the losing faction not supporting the nominee. Sanders moved the overton window into a place (whether for better or worse) that justified not voting for the nominee.
 
Raoul said:
Because he's the One...and you know, the powers that be would never allow the One to come to power. They want to keep us down at all costs.
Click to expand...
That's the angle I thought of. See it lots on social media when someone gets relatively famous for speaking of the betterment of others. People talk about protecting them for fear they'll get killed. The majority of the times it doesn't happen. And it mostly refers to when Hoover ran the FBI and they were actively targeting the civil rights movement.
 
Revan said:
No, it has not. By just looking at numbers, you see that Trump got more votes than Romney which is to be expected considering the increase on population (and going against a weaker candidate, so those in the middle might have shifted for him), while Clinton got almost half a million votes less than Obama which is inexcusable. The only explanation is that some of the Dems stayed home, not that they suddenly decided to shift from Obama to Trump.
Click to expand...

The Obama-Trump voter is a real phenomenon, although it obviously doesn't explain all or even most of Trump's win.
 
Raoul said:
The Dems were also significantly more factionalized in 2016 than in 2012. In 12, there was still a degree of party unity that propelled and benefitted the nominee. By 16, that had devolved into a tribal food fight that justified the losing faction not supporting the nominee. Sanders moved the overton window into a place (whether for better or worse) that justified not voting for the nominee.
Click to expand...
This is absolutely true and is the main cause why they lost. I was just explaining that they lost cause many Dems stay home, not cause Dems switched to Trump.

Also, I believe that Democrat party is to be blamed for the split which happened (and to be fair by doing so they made a no-mark politician like Sanders Jesus MK2). A fairer primary would have ensured (to a large degree) that Sanders bros wouldn't have hated Hillary more than Trump. And as we can see now, hardly he is going to win in a fair primary anyway.
 
nimic said:
The Obama-Trump voter is a real phenomenon, although it obviously doesn't explain all or even most of Trump's win.
Click to expand...
Obviously, there are people who voted Obama (and usually vote Democrats) and then voted Trump, same as there exist people who voted Romney (and usually vote Republican) and then voted Clinton. But there are many more Dems who didn't vote at all than voted for Trump.
 
Revan said:
Cause a lot of people are racists and idiots, and he fed on them.
Click to expand...

29% of Hispanics and Asians voted for Trump. 37% of Other race voted for Trump and even 8% of blacks voted for Trump.

Do you believe they all voted for Trump because of racism?


Sorry I don't want this to get lost because I believe its not being discussed enough among the Dems that default to racism all the time.

Trump’s Secret to Victory in 2020: Hispanic Voters
Yes, it’s true: The man who wants to build a wall to keep out immigrants is winning over just enough Latinos to get re-elected. Unless Democrats figure out how to stop him.

"A Latino Decisions poll conducted just before the 2016 presidential election found Trump had the support of just 18 percent of Hispanics. But the actual figure was 28 percent, which—given Trump’s incendiary rhetoric about immigrants—some analysts and pundits refused to believe from exit polls until further studies confirmed it."

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/02/24/2020-hispanic-voters-donald-trump-225192
 
Last edited:
oneniltothearsenal said:
29% of Hispanics and Asians voted for Trump. 37% of Other race voted for Trump and even 8% of blacks voted for Trump.

Do you believe they all voted for Trump because of racism?


Trump’s Secret to Victory in 2020: Hispanic Voters
Yes, it’s true: The man who wants to build a wall to keep out immigrants is winning over just enough Latinos to get re-elected. Unless Democrats figure out how to stop him.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/02/24/2020-hispanic-voters-donald-trump-225192
Click to expand...

It's not racism per se, it's fear and resentment against other Latinos/Asians/immigrants who will come and take their jobs. Just uneducated people scared as feck. Trump feeds on fear.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.