2020 US Elections | Biden certified as President | Dems control Congress

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Revan said:
Have you ever heard her speak, or read some of the things she has said? You can also check John Oliver's episode on third parties for some of the ridiculous things she has said and done.

I admit that some of her policies are good (on some aspects similar to Warren's and Bernie's). But unlike Warren who has a plan on how to do those policies, or Bernie who has at least an idea on how to achieve them, Stein has no fecking clue about anything. You can have the best intentions ever, but if you don't know how to realize some of those ideas, then it is worthless. She is a very ignorant idealist and a wannabe conspiracy theorist.
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https://www.jill2016.com/platform
Which are the ridiculous and worthless parts?
 
Raoul said:
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That is some hatchet job. He compares her plan to cancel student debt to Trump's plan to build a border wall. She clearly could appoint someone to the FEd. Reserve who would agree to use QE to cancel student debt. I'm struggling to see how that or asking for the 9/11 comission to look again into the attacks makes her crazy.
 
freeurmind said:
That is some hatchet job. He compares her plan to cancel student debt to Trump's plan to build a border wall. She clearly could appoint someone to the FEd. Reserve who would agree to use QE to cancel student debt. I'm struggling to see how that or asking for the 9/11 comission to look again into the attacks makes her crazy.
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The media will never say nothing good about a third party. The US establishment depends on people only voting for the two big right wing parties.
 
freeurmind said:
https://www.jill2016.com/platform
Which are the ridiculous and worthless parts?
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As I explained just a few hours ago, it is that she has no fecking clue how she is going to achieve any of those. I mentioned that some of her policies are similar to Warren's and Bernie's but unlike them (especially Warren), it is clear that Stein knows nothing what she is talking about.

Then there is the long list of idiotic things she has said.
Carolina Red said:
Didn't Jill Stein claim that Wifi was harming children's brains?
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She kind of did. And while not an anti-vaxer, she was very soft on anti-vaxers, kind of relativizing the thing.

Again, she's dumber than Trump. There is no silver-lining bar having 'good intentions' on her. Better to vote for Harambe.
 
George Owen said:
The media will never say nothing good about a third party. The US establishment depends on people only voting for the two big right wing parties.
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The parties can also induct (or is it deduct?) new movements such as what the Dems have done to the Sanders crowd. No need for a third party in that case. Alternatively, people like Stein and Sanders may want to build a third party for the future if they think they can't be adequately heard by the existing power structure.
 
George Owen said:
The media will never say nothing good about a third party. The US establishment depends on people only voting for the two big right wing parties.
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What the feck is wrong with Caf? It has gone full conspiracy-theorists.

I mean, it is John Oliver for feck sake, a 'journalist' who criticizes everyone.
 
Raoul said:
The parties can also induct (or is it deduct?) new movements such as what the Dems have done to the Sanders crowd. No need for a third party in that case. Alternatively, people like Stein and Sanders may want to build a third party for the future if they think they can't be adequately heard by the existing power structure.
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The best thing would be if Dems split to center-left and centrist/center-right, with Republicans splitting to right and nazis.
 
George Owen said:
It's not racism per se, it's fear and resentment against other Latinos/Asians/immigrants who will come and take their jobs. Just uneducated people scared as feck. Trump feeds on fear.
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That's definitely part of it but its absolutely not just uneducated people, although the educated people doing it could just be excused as sheer greed.

My point here is that the racism narrative has played out as far as it can go, its not going to drive Democrat turnout to keep saying Trump is racist. They need a positive vision to get behind to drive turnout like 2008
 
Red Dreams said:
The best thing would be if Dems put up decent Candidates.

Never blame the voter or the non voter.
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The problem is that what is decent for a left-winger like yourself, is not decent for a centrist (and vice versa). People in the middle are perfectly happy with someone like Biden, but you wouldn't vote for him (same as centrists wouldn't like to vote for Bernie).

The only current Democrat who seems to be acceptable for everyone is Warren. Ande despite that she is a centrist, I think she has the best plans (Bernie has the best policies, just that I don't trust him at all that he can achieve what he wants to do).
 
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Raoul said:
The parties can also induct (or is it deduct?) new movements such as what the Dems have done to the Sanders crowd. No need for a third party in that case. Alternatively, people like Stein and Sanders may want to build a third party for the future if they think they can't be adequately heard by the existing power structure.
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That would be ideal but it's too late. Jill invited Bernie to be the head of the green party ticket, but no, the old man decided to stay comfortable in his position and help SHillary come second.

After Trump (Or Biden) wins 2022, I wonder what will the young progressives do? (AOC and all those)

Stay comfortable where they are, or jump ship of the DNC corruption?
 
George Owen said:
That would be ideal but it's too late. Jill invited Bernie to be the head of the green party ticket, but no, the old man decided to stay comfortable in his position and help SHillary come second.

After Trump (Or Biden) wins 2022, I wonder what will the young progressives do? (AOC and all those)

Stay comfortable where they are, or jump ship of the DNC corruption?
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Or he realised that a Green ticket would've inevitably split the vote guaranteeing Trump's election. I get why people wanted to vote Hilary but Bernie taking a 5-10% chunk off the Dem vote would've alienated him with a lot of prospective voters he'd need this time around if he wants to win next year.
 
George Owen said:
That would be ideal but it's too late. Jill invited Bernie to be the head of the green party ticket, but no, the old man decided to stay comfortable in his position and help SHillary come second.

After Trump (Or Biden) wins 2022, I wonder what will the young progressives do? (AOC and all those)

Stay comfortable where they are, or jump ship of the DNC corruption?
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Which I find a bit odd since he could've completely avoided the entire mess with the DNC in 16 if he simply ran as a third party from the start. He could've raised similar money since it was virtually all people funded.
 
Carolina Red said:
Didn't Jill Stein claim that Wifi was harming children's brains?
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There are plenty of studies that show a link between electromagnetic radiation even in low doses and developmental problems in children. To the extent that some countries even issued advice to parents to make their children use earphones when using cellphones.
 
Revan said:
The problem is that what is decent for a left-winger like yourself, is not decent for a centrist (and vice versa). People in the middle are perfectly happy with someone like Biden, but you wouldn't vote for him (same as centrists wouldn't like to vote for Bernie).

The only current Democrat who seems to be acceptable for everyone is Warren.
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You have missed the point.

A decent candidate is one who represents people not business interests.

Actual policies.
 
DNC should change the party slogan to "If you think we're bad, wait till you see the other guys".
 
freeurmind said:
DNC should change the party slogan to "If you think we're bad, wait till you see the other guys".
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there are people with literally that on their bumper stickers near where i work. impossible to make a parody of a less inspired party slogan
 
Cheesy said:
Or he realised that a Green ticket would've inevitably split the vote guaranteeing Trump's election. I get why people wanted to vote Hilary but Bernie taking a 5-10% chunk off the Dem vote would've alienated him with a lot of prospective voters he'd need this time around if he wants to win next year.
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I would agreed with that way of thinking, only if Hillary at least was a decent human being and good candidate, true for the people. But reality is that she is just another Trump.

So it was the perfect chance to say: "look, we are not in this just to get the win, we are here to improve American people lives, and the DNC will never do that. They are just another face of corporations, so feck off"

he had the perfect opportunity to start a huge third party movement... he wasted it.
 
Red Dreams said:
You have missed the point.

A decent candidate is one who represents people not business interests.

Actual policies.
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Nope. A decent candidate is someone who has good actual policies and knows how to achieve them. As much as I like Bernie, I don't think that he actually knows how he will achieve his policies, and his uncompromising nature (as good as it is), will make things difficult. There is a reason why as a senator he has 3 bills to his names (2 of which are changing the names of post offices). A good Dem candidate needs to be someone who is at least acceptable to all Democrats, and preferably even able to work with Republicans (though this has become very hard in the last 10 years). You cannot govern only with executive orders, like it or not, the senate and house are extremely important and Bernie has not shown that he can work with them.
 
George Owen said:
I would agreed with that way of thinking, only if Hillary at least was a decent human being and good candidate, true for the people. But reality is that she is just another Trump.

So it was the perfect chance to say: "look, we are not in this just to get the win, we are here to improve American people lives, and the DNC will never do that. They are just another face of corporations, so feck off"

he had the perfect opportunity to start a huge third party movement... he wasted it.
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Bernie believes he can contribute by being in the party. Take over the party from within.

Same goes for people like AOC and Omar.
 
Revan said:
The problem is that what is decent for a left-winger like yourself, is not decent for a centrist (and vice versa). People in the middle are perfectly happy with someone like Biden, but you wouldn't vote for him (same as centrists wouldn't like to vote for Bernie).

The only current Democrat who seems to be acceptable for everyone is Warren.
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It's not as simple as "centrist vs progressive". Those aren't really meaningful labels in understanding the key voting blocks. For instance from the Sanders supporters that did not turn out to vote for Clinton I've seen some drastically different types from the

True Greens
People with whom Marianne Williamson has greater name recognition than Biden - the true greens are not people like Red Deams or Eboue but people like Marianne Williamson. Go look who her support comes from and its not remotely the AOC activist types but disengaged and apathetic greens. This is why the whole protest voter mockery doesn't work because its not reaching the actual greens that never consider voting Dem unless its a radical like Bernie.

Left-Libertarians
People that supported a potential Nader-Paul run in 2008 over Obama. These are very different than the True Greens or the other two groups. These are liberal gun owners like here:
Lara Smith National Spokesperson for the Liberal Gun Club said:
The ones that only want an AWB are the ones I most strongly oppose. This means Biden is about the worst right now. I think Warren is such a wonk, she could be convinced by evidence-based arguments. Nor do I think she's a true believer. Harris has an abysmal record on guns in CA as well and I won't vote for her - she's a true authoritarian on a lot of issues.
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Globalization Losers
Another group is the working class independent moderates of the type Michael Moore talks about a lot in the upper midwest but specific the losers of globalization. The ones where the Clinton-Kerry-Biden NAFTA message has no appeal but they trusted Obama for change but then either jump ship to Trump or stayed home. This is the group that makes up infrequent voters a lot that Trump's anti-immigration tapped into.

Then you have the intellectual progressives like Red Dreams or Eboue.

So people should look deeper than just progressive-centrist because the voting blocks are not a two side dichotomy but rather a mixture of a half dozen factions along different divides.
 
Revan said:
Nope. A decent candidate is someone who has good actual policies and knows how to achieve them. As much as I like Bernie, I don't think that he actually knows how he will achieve his policies, and his uncompromising nature (as good as it is), will make things difficult. There is a reason why as a senator he has 3 bills to his names (2 of which are changing the names of post offices). A good Dem candidate needs to be someone who is at least acceptable to all Democrats, and preferably even able to work with Republicans (though this has become very hard in the last 10 years). You cannot govern only with executive orders, like it or not, the senate and house are extremely important and Bernie has not shown that he can work with them.
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If you think Bernie does not have decent policies, you understand nothing.

He gives details about how he pays for them too.
Those of us who have some knowledge of economics agree with him.

So you are simply wrong.
 
George Owen said:
I would agreed with that way of thinking, only if Hillary at least was a decent human being and good candidate, true for the people. But reality is that she is just another Trump.

So it was the perfect chance to say: "look, we are not in this just to get the win, we are here to improve American people lives, and the DNC will never do that. They are just another face of corporations, so feck off"

he had the perfect opportunity to start a huge third party movement... he wasted it.
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He wouldn't have started a third party movement though, he'd have just alienated the less left-leaning portions of the Dem base he needs now who'd have been enraged he facilitated a Trump win. As it stands he's got a decent chance of being elected in 2020 and enacting some of his policies - had he gone against the Dems in 2016 he wouldn't have been afforded that opportunity.
 
Red Dreams said:
Bernie believes he can contribute by being ion the party. Take over the party from within.

Same goes for people like AOC and Omar.
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I really hope that's the case, but in my experience, chances are the party will convert them way before they can convert the party. I hope I'm wrong.
 
Revan said:
Nope. A decent candidate is someone who has good actual policies and knows how to achieve them. As much as I like Bernie, I don't think that he actually knows how he will achieve his policies, and his uncompromising nature (as good as it is), will make things difficult. There is a reason why as a senator he has 3 bills to his names (2 of which are changing the names of post offices). A good Dem candidate needs to be someone who is at least acceptable to all Democrats, and preferably even able to work with Republicans (though this has become very hard in the last 10 years). You cannot govern only with executive orders, like it or not, the senate and house are extremely important and Bernie has not shown that he can work with them.
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I'd rather have someone with left-wing policies who doesn't manage to implement said policies but actually tries to do so, as opposed to someone who doesn't believe in said policies at all. At the very least as president he'd normalise the idea of a left-winger being in power for future electoral cycles, and we'd likely see an increasing tilt towards more left-leaning Dems while he's in office and afterwards as a result.

Working with Republicans at this stage is a non-starter - they only want to obstruct so they can hold power. They literally turned on initiatives proposed initially by Republicans as soon as Obama wanted to implement them purely to try and make things difficult. Obama wasn't a leftist but they did that anyway.
 
George Owen said:
I really hope that's the case, but in my experience, chances are the party will convert them way before they can convert the party. I hope I'm wrong.
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He is an idealist but also practical. If not for him we would not be talking about Single Payer/ Medicare For All for example.

He is trying to change the conversation.
Instead of just saying Trump is bad.
 
Red Dreams said:
@Raoul

You have said several times that a Biden or another Centrist victory will not change anything.

Great message to attract voters to the Deem cause.
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Nor would a Sanders victory since the political will to move forward with his policies doesn't exist, nor do the political dynamics in the Senate.
 
Raoul said:
Nor would a Sanders victory since the political will to move forward with his policies doesn't exist, nor do the political dynamics in the Senate.
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Trump a complete Con man is able to galvanise a significant section of this country.

Bernie would easily be able to galvanise the country to honest policies like Health Care and Education.

Because people need these things. The Senate dynamics, courts can change with the mandate of a president.

I remember this line from a film I think. "When in Command, Command"
 
Red Dreams said:
If you think Bernie does not have decent policies, you understand nothing.

He gives details about how he pays for them too.
Those of us who have some knowledge of economics agree with him.

So you are simply wrong.
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Can you debate without offending? Try it, assuming that you're over 18, it should not be that hard.
 
Red Dreams said:
Trump a complete Con man is able to galvanise a significant section of this country.

Bernie would easily be able to galvanise the country to honest policies like Health Care and Education.

Because people need these things. The Senate dynamics, courts can change with the mandate of a president.

I remember this line from a film I think. "When in Command, Command"
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If this was true then why hasn't he done it ?
 
freeurmind said:
There are plenty of studies that show a link between electromagnetic radiation even in low doses and developmental problems in children. To the extent that some countries even issued advice to parents to make their children use earphones when using cellphones.
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Please, link me to these studies...
 
Cheesy said:
I'd rather have someone with left-wing policies who doesn't manage to implement said policies but actually tries to do so, as opposed to someone who doesn't believe in said policies at all. At the very least as president he'd normalise the idea of a left-winger being in power for future electoral cycles, and we'd likely see an increasing tilt towards more left-leaning Dems while he's in office and afterwards as a result.

Working with Republicans at this stage is a non-starter - they only want to obstruct so they can hold power. They literally turned on initiatives proposed initially by Republicans as soon as Obama wanted to implement them purely to try and make things difficult. Obama wasn't a leftist but they did that anyway.
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The problem on that, is that if the end result is nothing, then it is a bit of waste.

Obviously I would prefer Bernie to someone like Biden. However, while I like him and his policies more than Warren's, I think that Warren's policies are more detailed, she has more appeal than Bernie not being hated from the middle, and she is (IMO) quite a bit more intelligent. Bernie is good on pushing stuff, but being in opposition is very different to actually governing.

And yes, being able to somehow work with Republicans is quite important, unless Dems manage to win both the Congress rooms (for senate it is going to be close to impossible). Otherwise, it is gonna be like Obama in his last 2 years when he was unable to do much, despite his good intentions. Nevertheless, even more important is to be able to unite the party, something I believe Warren might do, and Bernie won't.
 
Revan said:
The problem on that, is that if the end result is nothing, then it is a bit of waste.

Obviously I would prefer Bernie to someone like Biden. However, while I like him and his policies more than Warren's, I think that Warren's policies are more detailed, she has more appeal than Bernie not being hated from the middle, and she is (IMO) quite a bit more intelligent. Bernie is good on pushing stuff, but being in opposition is very different to actually governing.

And yes, being able to somehow work with Republicans is quite important, unless Dems manage to win both the Congress rooms (for senate it is going to be close to impossible). Otherwise, it is gonna be like Obama in his last 2 years when he was unable to do much, despite his good intentions. Nevertheless, even more important is to be able to unite the party, something I believe Warren might do, and Bernie won't.
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As opposed to what though? He'd still be able to implement modest reforms a more moderate Dem would implement while at least having a chance of pushing through more radical initiatives.

They can try to work with the Republicans but all the evidence suggests the Republicans just aren't interested on most matters - it doesn't matter whether it's Obama or Bernie in office, they just want power for themselves and have correctly gauged that obstructionism is their most effective approach. If you want the Dems to continue making hollow appeals across the aisle, then fair enough, but for the most part it doesn't matter which Dem is doing it - they're about as likely to work with Bernie as they are Biden and Warren on policies that are even remotely progressive. At least a progressive Dem can highlight this instead of pretending the Republicans are actually an alright bunch who just happen to disagree on a few laws here and there.
 
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