2020 US Elections | Biden certified as President | Dems control Congress

[berbatrick]

"hypocrite" isn't a broad characterization. Your brain might like to put a label on people but what really matters is what you're hypocritical about. Joining a sorority at 20 and then pretend you're more native american than you are is, again, insignificant when you assess how good of a leader someone could be. I highly doubt she mentionned that at her mother's funeral in 1995 for political gain.
Now, being a sitting president lecturing people about the crime bill to discredit a political oppenent when you bought 2 pages in a newspaper to request the death penalty for 5 innocent black kids back then, THAT's hypocritical. Excuse me if i have a sense of proportion and priority.

You should have put a trigger warning on this post. I could scarcely believe my eyes.
You are telling me that Trump is a hypocrite ... AND a racist. My word. Re-evaluating my worldview.

Do you not understand the difference between a sorority and public schools? The original tweet was a misleading shitpost and contained nothing noteworthy.

From my understanding, a sorority is a social group within a college, it is voluntary, it is sometimes linked to housing. I wasn't in college in the US as an undergrad but that's what I've learnt from my students.
Bernie was arrested for protesting against segregated (public) schools in Chicago and was also involved in a a movement to desegregate (private) university housing, 6 years before she was in college, and before the passage of the civil rights act.
She could have done either of those things about the sorority, and if she (understandably) did not want to be heroic, she could have opted not to join the sorority. But she was a Republican in the 60s and would vote for Nixon, Ford, Reagan, and HW, so the all-white part shouldn't have been a negative for her. It makes sense for a 60s white Republican to join an all-white sorority, and I'm sure that given the choice a good chunk of current college Republicans would do the same.

My point is that she self-identified as white to enter that sorority (by definition), and then self-identified as Native when applying for jobs and the Bar. So one of those (IMO the latter) was deceptive, and a deception she would have been conscious of given her previous self-identification.

 

[GiddyUp]

"hypocrite" isn't a broad characterization. Your brain might like to put a label on people but what really matters is what you're hypocritical about. Joining a sorority at 20 and then pretend you're more native american than you are is, again, insignificant when you assess how good of a leader someone could be. I highly doubt she mentionned that at her mother's funeral in 1995 for political gain.
Now, being a sitting president lecturing people about the crime bill to discredit a political oppenent when you bought 2 pages in a newspaper to request the death penalty for 5 innocent black kids back then, THAT's hypocritical. Excuse me if i have a sense of proportion and priority.

I totally agree but apparently Warren is racist against Native Americans so she's just trash. On to the next person to be called a racist or rapist. Or they might of said something someone doesn't like 50 years ago. Unelectable so just let the repulicans win.

 

[Sweet Square]

My point is that she self-identified as white to enter that sorority (by definition), and then self-identified as Native when applying for jobs and the Bar. So one of those (IMO the latter) was deceptive, and a deception she would have been conscious of given her previous self-identification.

Warren is two-spirited, some days she is white and others days she is native American.

 

[Oly Francis]

To the person that implied Warren did that to get jobs (and then deleted his message), it seems that it's just another falsehood :



But after a review of her personnel files from the University of Pennsylvania and Harvard, and more than 100 interviews, The Boston Globe concluded in September that, "It is clear that Warren was viewed as a white woman by the hiring committees at every institution that employed her."

It was not until after she was hired that Warren changed her ethnicity from white to Native American at the University of Pennsylvania Law School, where she worked from 1987 to 1995, the Globe reported.

Similarly, she changed her ethnicity in Harvard's human resources system four months after she began working there as a tenured professor in 1995. The Ivy League institution identified Warren as Native American on federal affirmative action forms every year until 2004, according to the Post.

 

[Sweet Square]

To the person that implied Warren did that to get jobs (and then deleted his message), it seems that it's just another falsehood :



But after a review of her personnel files from the University of Pennsylvania and Harvard, and more than 100 interviews, The Boston Globe concluded in September that, "It is clear that Warren was viewed as a white woman by the hiring committees at every institution that employed her."

It was not until after she was hired that Warren changed her ethnicity from white to Native American at the University of Pennsylvania Law School, where she worked from 1987 to 1995, the Globe reported.

Similarly, she changed her ethnicity in Harvard's human resources system four months after she began working there as a tenured professor in 1995. The Ivy League institution identified Warren as Native American on federal affirmative action forms every year until 2004, according to the Post.

You know this is actual worse than lying to get a job.

My bad for giving Warren too much credit. Soz Liz.

 

[Oly Francis]

You know this is actual worse than lying to get a job.

My bad for giving Warren too much credit. Soz Liz.

So i guess you can enlighten us about her motivation for doing that since she already had a job in the most prestigious schools and started her political carreer 25 years later. We're all ears.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

In fairness, a lot of the Bernie or Bust crowd don't really have a political home at the moment. Unlike Sanders himself, AOC and a few others who have actually worked with Biden to push progressive interests in recent months, the fringe elements of the Sanders movement, because they have such a dogmatically insular world view, no longer have a seat at the table and have been reduced to cries for help on the internet.

The type of people you are talking about never had a political home and never had a seat at the table. They also can't reliably be labeled as Bernie supporters since they really come from a few different groups (from Bill Gates conspiracy theorists to actual Worker Party communists) that Bernie brought into the tent. Also, dogmatically insular world-views are not limited to the fringe groups. Center-right democrats like Biden's true supporters also have dogmatically insular world-views.

 

[Sweet Square]

So i guess you can enlighten us about her motivation for doing that since she already had a job in the most prestigious schools and started her political carreer 25 years later. We're all ears.

She's a middle class and former Republican white lady, who used her family history to make herself sound more interesting than she really is. It seems a pretty common thing in the US(Its also quite offensive and racist)

It's really not a difficult question to answer.

What do you think her motivation was ?

 

[calodo2003]

@GiddyUp I hope you feel better now that you've gotten it out of your system. I think your anger is misplaced and should be directed at those who are supposed to be aligned with your politics. I also think people like yourself should read up on the crime bill, war on drugs, and the reprecusisons it has had on minority communities and still does to this day. Every time, I see posts like yours saying "Biden was a racist in the 70's" it feels like a deflection and avoidance to do any research on him.

The war on drugs helped to create the crime bill (which has obviously not been a success by many measures). However, many African American leaders of all ilk (political, civic, religious) supported the crime bill in 1994. How do you square that circle? Do you hold the same enmity towards those leaders as well?

 

[berbatrick]

the fringe elements of the Sanders movement, because they have such a dogmatically insular world view, no longer have a seat at the table and have been reduced to cries for help on the internet.

if biden wins, one of the thing that will please me is seeing the likes of the media followers of that line (mehdi hasan, a lot of warren people) realise just how marginal and irrelevant they are. you are correct that my side will never win (and that bernie 2016/20 was an abberation in democratic history), so it is fun to see irritating people suffer.

 

[berbatrick]

She's a middle class and former Republican white lady, who used her family history to make herself sound more interesting than she really is. It seems a pretty common thing in the US(Its also quite offensive and racist)

hey don't forget she also got a cookbook out of it!

https://legalinsurrection.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Pow-Wow-Chow-Mexican-Oatmeal-Soup.jpg

i think some of the people im respoinding to today are slower than usual, so they're probably going to think i'm saying trump is native or something, and also this point is a cliche by now, but i have to make it - *imagine* if bernie had done anything even close to this.

 

[entropy]

The war on drugs helped to create the crime bill (which has obviously not been a success by many measures). However, many African American leaders of all ilk (political, civic, religious) supported the crime bill in 1994. How do you square that circle? Do you hold the same enmity towards those leaders as well?

I am not trying to square any circle. I also think it is unfair to compare Biden or even Warren for that matter, to black, hispanic, leaders from within the party. But that is an entirely different conversation.

 

[calodo2003]

I am not trying to square any circle. I also think it is unfair to compare Biden or even Warren for that matter, to black, hispanic, leaders from within the party. But that is an entirely different conversation.

You’re obviously not, it doesn’t fit into your narrowly cylindrical view so it apparently doesn’t matter. It smacks of disingenuousness.

You just go on not answering questions. I’ll just go back to being a racist.

 

[fishfingers15]

Firstly, there is an alternative to joining an all-white sorority. A former rival practised that alternative when he was in college, 10 years before she was.

You don't think she internally realised the contradiction between voluntarily joining an all-white organisation and volutnarily declaring herself not white, both times when it suited her?

Booo.. this is what happens when you don't die when we want you to and consolidate behind the reformist candidate on course for a landslide victory

 

[Organic Potatoes]

From my understanding, a sorority is a social group within a college, it is voluntary, it is sometimes linked to housing. I wasn't in college in the US as an undergrad but that's what I've learnt from my students.
Bernie was arrested for protesting against segregated (public) schools in Chicago and was also involved in a a movement to desegregate (private) university housing, 6 years before she was in college, and before the passage of the civil rights act.
She could have done either of those things about the sorority, and if she (understandably) did not want to be heroic, she could have opted not to join the sorority. But she was a Republican in the 60s and would vote for Nixon, Ford, Reagan, and HW, so the all-white part shouldn't have been a negative for her. It makes sense for a 60s white Republican to join an all-white sorority, and I'm sure that given the choice a good chunk of current college Republicans would do the same.

My point is that she self-identified as white to enter that sorority (by definition), and then self-identified as Native when applying for jobs and the Bar. So one of those (IMO the latter) was deceptive, and a deception she would have been conscious of given her previous self-identification.

You posted something about her without any context from you, painting her as a racist. Then you try to defend it by posting a picture of a completely unrelated Bernie story, as though he would have done the impossible in her other situation. This was not an honest argument without proper context.

As for the rest, it was not uncommon for people to change from identifying between white and Native American. So many genealogies were thrown into chaos here. Hell, I could read the Sequoyah alphabet and speak Cherokee but ended up looking like I’m straight out of Gloucester.

 

[Wibble]

youve not said one worthwhile thing in this rant. my point is that she is a hypocrite, not that she is kkk, no idea where you got that from. maybe from imaginary twitter arguments you seem to be having in parallel. if all you wanted to say is that you dont care if shes a hypocrite, you could have started and ended with that, instead of making excuses (how could she *not* join it) and tangents (twitter trump people???).

Yes. She should have joined the local Indigenous American sorority.

Oh wait ..........

 

[berbatrick]

Booo.. this is what happens when you don't die when we want you to and consolidate behind the reformist candidate on course for a landslide victory

not sure if this is about bernie people for warren or the other way round or bernie people for biden tbh
anyway this turned up in my youtube recommended and i realised that the highest achievement of the campaign was making chris matthews afraid for his life for about 2 weeks in february.

You posted something about her without any context from you, painting her as a racist. Then you try to defend it by posting a picture of a completely unrelated Bernie story, as though he would have done the impossible in her other situation. This was not an honest argument without proper context.

As for the rest, it was not uncommon for people to change from identifying between white and Native American. So many genealogies were thrown into chaos here. Hell, I could read the Sequoyah alphabet and speak Cherokee but ended up looking like I’m straight out of Gloucester.

when i saw the tweet, my mind went straight to the native story. obviously other people's didn't, and so i responded adding that context. i included bernie because soeone asked what i'd expect her to do in her circumstances, and i said that was an alternative. as was ...

Yes. She should have joined the local Indigenous American sorority.

Oh wait ..........

not joining it altogether. repeating my previous post:

Spoiler

She could have done either of those things about the sorority, and if she (understandably) did not want to be heroic, she could have opted not to join the sorority. But she was a Republican in the 60s and would vote for Nixon, Ford, Reagan, and HW, so the all-white part shouldn't have been a negative for her. It makes sense for a 60s white Republican to join an all-white sorority, and I'm sure that given the choice a good chunk of current college Republicans would do the same.

@Organic Potatoes for the last part of your post, it is interesting that at the end of yesterday, i was told (probably rightly) that it is better to be more cynical about politicians in reference to obama, and at the end of today that warren's convenient changes in self-identification are totally innocent.

 

[Wibble]

not joining it altogether. repeating my previous post:

Spoiler

She could have done either of those things about the sorority, and if she (understandably) did not want to be heroic, she could have opted not to join the sorority. But she was a Republican in the 60s and would vote for Nixon, Ford, Reagan, and HW, so the all-white part shouldn't have been a negative for her. It makes sense for a 60s white Republican to join an all-white sorority, and I'm sure that given the choice a good chunk of current college Republicans would do the same.

Like it or not but sororities are very important networking opportunities and there is a great deal of pressure to join one. Not joining one can have serious career implications, so judging someone by that choice, in that era, when they were little more than a kid, is ludicrously judgmental.

 

[entropy]

You’re obviously not, it doesn’t fit into your narrowly cylindrical view so it apparently doesn’t matter. It smacks of disingenuousness.

You just go on not answering questions. I’ll just go back to being a racist.

I never called you a racist. You’re the only one who keeps calling yourself that. I specifically used the word, internalized anti-blackness for this exact reason. Internalized anti-blackness doesn’t mean you are a racist. I even tagged you in one of the posts so that you could see the difference and assumed you did. It literally means what the word says.

 

[berbatrick]

Like it or not but sororities are very important networking opportunities and there is a great deal of pressure to join one. Not joining one can have serious career implications, so judging someone by that choice, in that era, when they were little more than a kid, is ludicrously judgmental.

I think in conjunction with her political allegiance till 1995 it is at least a little judgement-worthy! (Her party change in the 90s wasn't because of race either).
tbh for me, it's hard not to judge her for actively being part of it, since fighting against it did not give bernie significant mainstream credit in his two runs.

anyway my main point was the disconnect between her joining that group and then declaring as native.

 

[calodo2003]

I never called you a racist. You’re the only one who keeps calling yourself that. I specifically used the word, internalized anti-blackness for this exact reason. Internalized anti-blackness doesn’t mean you are a racist. I even tagged you in one of the posts so that you could see the difference and assumed you did. It literally means what the word says.

Wow, what word salad diarrhea that is. Christ, own up to what you say & don’t try to live behind parsings & splitting hairs. Your tedium is childlike.

Again, questions not answered, more obfuscation & non sequiturs. All good though, you do what you accuse others of doing, moving the goalposts.

 

[entropy]

You can literally google it, my dude. The information is right there.

 

[calodo2003]

You can literally google it, my dude. The information is right there.

Not inferring that such a word or phrase doesn’t exist, it’s just sad the way you try to wield it as a passive-aggressive cudgel. Again, childlike obfuscation & non sequiturs rule the day.

 

[Organic Potatoes]

@Organic Potatoes for the last part of your post, it is interesting that at the end of yesterday, i was told (probably rightly) that it is better to be more cynical about politicians in reference to obama, and at the end of today that warren's convenient changes in self-identification are totally innocent.

You are reaching here, but I admire your persistence.

 

[fishfingers15]

I never called you a racist. You’re the only one who keeps calling yourself that. I specifically used the word, internalized anti-blackness for this exact reason. Internalized anti-blackness doesn’t mean you are a racist. I even tagged you in one of the posts so that you could see the difference and assumed you did. It literally means what the word says.

Isn't that casual racism? Or is it another one of your own thought such as white women ensured Trump win?

 

[Raoul]

 

[Kentonio]

Nah, obviously there could be a last minute surprise but most of those things they list are pretty weak. Far too much comparison to '16 which was a very different environment.

 

[Beachryan]

Nah, obviously there could be a last minute surprise but most of those things they list are pretty weak. Far too much comparison to '16 which was a very different environment.

It's a tough time to be a pessimistic numbers person. Despite a tiny uptick in polls last week, Trump's numbers in key states are awful right now, and if you just go on those he wouldn't have a hope.

But, given 2020 gonna 2020, it feels like an inevitability that he'll cheat his way to a victory.

 

[GiddyUp]

I never called you a racist. You’re the only one who keeps calling yourself that. I specifically used the word, internalized anti-blackness for this exact reason. Internalized anti-blackness doesn’t mean you are a racist. I even tagged you in one of the posts so that you could see the difference and assumed you did. It literally means what the word says.

FFS.

 

[entropy]

FFS.

Something for you to think about before you go about saving the world.

 

[GiddyUp]

Something for you to think about before you go about saving the world.

Must be wonderful sitting at home coming up with numerous ways to tell random people on the internet how they hate black people. The people of color in this country must think you are great.

 

[entropy]

They literally teach this in colleges, my dude. What's wrong with you?

 

[Cheimoon]

Those banking links are hand in hand with every administration over the last 50 years, some on here think it's only a Dem problem.

I don't know the ins and outs of any of that, but yeah, I would generally assume that the GOP and DNC have close ties with America's financial elite, and that that influences anything that GOP and DNC presidents do. That's why I said that I see Obama as a traditional president and hence am not surprised if there would have been these banking links in his presidency.

Come on mate. Nothing I've pointed out is outlandish. I think it is very troubling that you can't seem to handle even the slightest of criticism. Bailing out banks, deporting migrants, putting children in cages, these are all glaring mistakes that have been made worse under trump. If you cannot see something so obvious, I am not sure how you can see any of Biden's faults.

I have not been part of this discussion before, but if I may ask two questions of you:

1. Where has anyone said that any of those things are not bad, or that they are unique to the GOP, or that they will immediately stop under Biden?
2. Given the reality of Biden's candidacy and his political ideas, and of the DNC being what it is, what do you suggest progressive-minded Americans do for the election this year?

I am assuming the bold is "(with) my children". I think this is the difference, at least for me. We do not have children of our own, but we do have nieces and nephews who might as well be. Their arrival in this world triggered a seismic shift in my political thinking. My voting is now based on one question: Which side of this initiatie/candidate/bond etc. will provide a better future for them. I don't like taxes any more than the next person, but if a higher rate will push more money to schools, environmental issues, healthcare etc. then so be it. They can't afford a "burn it all down" strategy.

I do like taxes, actually. Where would be without them? I also think people in my income group should pay more of them, so social security can be improved.

 

[WI_Red]

I don't know the ins and outs of any of that, but yeah, I would generally assume that the GOP and DNC have close ties with America's financial elite, and that that influences anything that GOP and DNC presidents do. That's why I said that I see Obama as a traditional president and hence am not surprised if there would have been these banking links in his presidency.


I have not been part of this discussion before, but if I may ask two questions of you:

1. Where has anyone said that any of those things are not bad, or that they are unique to the GOP, or that they will immediately stop under Biden?
2. Given the reality of Biden's candidacy and his political ideas, and of the DNC being what it is, what do you suggest progressive-minded Americans do for the election this year?

I do like taxes, actually. Where would be without them? I also think people in my income group should pay more of them, so social security can be improved.

Don't get me wrong, I would happily pay more to enable things like universal healthcare, but I still don't have to "like" it .

I am always amazed by local taxes. Our property taxes increased 6X (yes, 6) when moving from Bama to Wisconsin. The biggest ticket item? Police at a whopping 30% of our local taxes. Insane.

 

[George Owen]

1. Given the reality of Biden's candidacy and his political ideas, and of the DNC being what it is, what do you suggest progressive-minded Americans do for the election this year?

Vote for people with a track record that fits with your own thinking. Green party candidate would be my choice.

Coming from a country with the exact same political system (two-party, imposed by the US obviously), voting for the supposedly "lefty" party, does absolutely nothing for the farewell of the people.

Since democracy returned to my country in 1990, the "democrats" equivalent party has been in power most of the time (including the socialist party in that group), and it's been the same as in the USA. Only nice words to get the votes, but when in power, they go against the people and ended up privatizing the whole country. Education, health system, pensions, etc. Plus, all the typical things like saving the big corporations and sending corrupt politicians and businessmen to ethic classes, instead of jail.

It's a fake democracy system, imposed by the economical elites, to make sure, no matter who wins, they win.

For the last elections, a third party came in strong (a true left wing party, imagine something like Bernie Sanders, AOC) but they fell short and eventually, the right wing party ended up in power.

One would think, ohh, so stupid!! hahah why vote for a party with no chances!!?? now you let the right wing to win again. Happy now? (That's the typical thing you read here)

Well, actually, yeah, it ended up very well. The right wingers thought they could keep exploiting the people, but surprise, a huge social awakening happened, and the right wing government has been absolutely unable to complete with any of their original plans. (The same would have happened if the fake "left" would have won)

And the political panorama seems to be going to change for ever, and for good.


So yeah. Any US citizen who wants change in America, needs to vote for decent people with a track record, not for parties who talk nice.

Even if that means a new Trump government. The people will not take it any more Trump or Biden craziness, and will take the streets before letting the elites to keep abusing them.

Almost 50% of the voters in US don't even show up to vote because they know it's the same shit if red or blue wins. (and subconsciously, they think voting third party would be a waste of time because of people like in this thread that keep repeating that)

You can't even script it. 90% of democrats, probably big majority of independents, and also a small but decent chunk of republicans support Medicare for All, but not even a whiff about it from Biden or his team. Their bosses won't allow it.

 

[Beachryan]

I'm glad that things worked out for the best in Australia. That's good.

I simply cannot envision a situation where 4 more years of a Trump Presidency is the net good. Especially when the only 'positive' appears to be: it'll be so incredibly bad that it'll force real change.

This is during a pandemic, a recession and increasing tensions between the world's two superpowers. And you're going to help elect the guy who just did an interview that genuinely feels like performance art. And trust him to build a cabinet to administer the richest and most powerful country on Earth.

I can understand where you're coming from, but in this case, at this time I believe the endorsement of Trumpian politics which a second term would genuinely threaten the trajectory of Western Democracy.

 

[GiddyUp]

They literally teach this in colleges, my dude. What's wrong with you?

Quit your bullshit and get to the point. Am I and other posters in this thread anti-black? Yes or no?

 

[George Owen]

I'm glad that things worked out for the best in Australia. That's good.

I simply cannot envision a situation where 4 more years of a Trump Presidency is the net good. Especially when the only 'positive' appears to be: it'll be so incredibly bad that it'll force real change.

This is during a pandemic, a recession and increasing tensions between the world's two superpowers. And you're going to help elect the guy who just did an interview that genuinely feels like performance art. And trust him to build a cabinet to administer the richest and most powerful country on Earth.

I can understand where you're coming from, but in this case, at this time I believe the endorsement of Trumpian politics which a second term would represent would genuinely threaten the trajectory of Western Democracy.

No it wouldn't, because only 1 in 4 Americans supports him (probably even less now). So even if he wins, and he tries to take it to the next level (So far he hasn't done anything that haven't been done before by others democrats/republicans presidents), I expect a big social rebellion.

Those 3/4 of citizens who don't support him, wouldn't stay idle while the country goes to shit. When democracy has failed, it's the people who has to make things right. And social networks are stronger than ever now.


ps. I was talking about Chile (Aka, US state number 51)

 

[fishfingers15]

No it wouldn't, because only 1 in 4 Americans supports him (probably even less now). So even if he wins, and he tries to take it to the next level (So far he hasn't done anything that haven't been done before by others democrats/republicans presidents), I expect a big social rebellion.

Those 3/4 of citizens who don't support him, wouldn't stay idle while the country goes to shit. When democracy has failed, it's the people who has to make things right. And social networks are stronger than ever now.


ps. I was talking about Chile (Aka, US state number 51)

People aren't revolting right now and they won't revolt. You'll have another 4 years of Trump with half the people making fun of Pelosi while not turning up to vote in mid term elections.

 

[Beachryan]

No it wouldn't, because only 1 in 4 Americans supports him (probably even less now). So even if he wins, and he tries to take it to the next level (So far he hasn't done anything that haven't been done before by others democrats/republicans presidents), I expect a big social rebellion.

Those 3/4 of citizens who don't support him, wouldn't stay idle while the country goes to shit. When democracy has failed, it's the people who has to make things right. And social networks are stronger than ever now.


ps. I was talking about Chile (Aka, US state number 51)

Sorry, saw your profile tag line as Aus!

I wish I shared that optimism. I also wish the pandemic had come maybe 2 months earlier, because then we'd very likely have Bernie as a candidate. But Americans to date have shown even when they try to protest or similar, they can't overtake the institutions that are holding them down. The electoral college is a joke, but protected by the filibuster, which is a joke. The norms that could be used to mitigate Trump have been torn up by Barr and McConnell, there is nothing to stop the man anymore. They are literally sending unmarked federal agents to attack protestors in a city that no only didn't ask for help, but outright refused it.

And this is when he needs reelection! Imagine 4 years of unconstrained dementia-ridden Trump?