2020 US Elections | Biden certified as President | Dems control Congress

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Synco said:
Well yeah, the subordination of truth and morals under political-identitarian causes is a massive drag, and absolutely harmful. And I also agree that Sanders is regularly getting that treatment. But then I don't see this partisan loyalty as something larger parts of the left aren't guilty of as well. We had this issue over & over, but for me the downplaying of left antisemitism in the same paragraph has a lot to do with that attitude.

Same goes for the identity thing: It's absolutely true that this has become a political partisan matter as well. The Jewishness of one's allies gets paraded around, and in the really bad cases, a Jew on the other side is not only an opponent, but an abomination. But man, when I look at your last post in the Israel/Palestine thread, I see a perfect example of that toxicity against the "wrong Jews" (in this case: "Zionist child killers").

Generally speaking, it's odd how often people can easily spot the inconsistencies and hypocrisies on the other side, but somehow manage to blend this with the same mindset they have just exposed. Does my head in.
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I think this comes down to a fundamental disagreement we have with each other about the anti semitism in the Labour Party and from what I've seen and researched it was massively over blown and the party made giants steps to fix the small issues at hand, as I've said before on here it was awful that lots of the British jewish community felt that way about the party but their feelings weren't based on any evidence but again this is discussion for a different thread(And as you've said it's a discussion that being talked about a million times already on here).

As for my post in Israel/Palestine I would have posted the same about anyone from the British army or American army and secondly maybe it's just my sense of humour but that tweet was funny. The idea of someone who was formerly part of the IDF singing Imagine by John Lennon is funny. It a perfect
hyper normalisation moment.

Having said all of that I quite like Deutsche - Message Of The Non - Jewish Jew, as a way for left politics to get past what I would say are at best, very misguided attacks from well meaningful liberals(This the most generous reading one could give, for the most part it's just smears). Ideally the socialist argument that Bernie Sanders isn't just another white dude shouldn't be well actually he's from a working class Jewish family but that the politics Sanders supports is the politics of universal human emancipation. Although to put that argument forward would require an actual socialist left in US, so I can't really make that argument because I know Sanders(As great as he is)doesn't support such politics.
 
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Florida Man said:
I use 45 a lot. It's for times when 30 seconds is too little and one minute is too much.


Ideally, the process should be followed, but we're probably not going to get any traction because even if true, Biden the Democrats will simply deny/ignore it. And don't you see the hypocrisy of the Democratic party and the irony of these events? They were convinced Kavanaugh was a rapist. They used these arguments against Trump. They made a meal out of "believe all women" and even Joe Biden making a statement like that.

Put Sanders in the same situation and details and CNN and MSNBC will spend days on it. Put Trump in the same situation and details and they will be talking about him all day too. But Biden being in the situation means fake news, Bernie bots planting it, Russia, etc. And even some people not denying it are becoming rape apologists and pretty much sayin a little bit of rape is okay for President because it's better than a lot of rape. It's a complete mockery of the #metoo movement for anyone who is true to it.
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Yeah huge hypocracy too in my opinion. Ive seen radical Sanders supporters smearing Biden with the spread of all this. They're fighting Trump when he goes to these extremes and accuses/labels with no and very little evidence, yet use the same smear-campaign approach. Completely stupid imo. Playing it into Trumps small little hands, legitimizing that this is an OK way to campaign. I dont even think Sanders himself likes this way of campaigning
 
Sweet Square said:
As for my post in Israel/Palestine I would have posted the same about anyone from the British army or American army and secondly maybe it's just my sense of humour but that tweet was funny. The idea of someone who was formerly part of the IDF singing Imagine by John Lennon is funny. It a perfect hyper normalisation moment.
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I have fully understood how the joke works, and my assessment was written in the knowledge of that. To put it very neutrally: I see elements at work there, that I'm convinced evade those who think this is a hilarious way of putting it. That's the story of this entire dispute all over again, unsurprisingly. When these elements evade a particular understanding of an issue, harsh criticism of them must appear as smears. (That is not to say there aren't unjustified attacks as well, which makes the whole thing even more complicated.)
Sweet Square said:
Having said all of that I quite like Deutsche - Message Of The Non - Jewish Jew, as a way for left politics to get past what I would say are at best, very misguided attacks from well meaningful liberals(This the most generous reading one could give, for the most part it's just smears). Ideally the socialist argument that Bernie Sanders isn't just another white dude shouldn't be well actually he's from a working class Jewish family but that the politics Sanders supports is the politics of universal human emancipation. Although to put that argument forward would require an actual socialist left in US, so I can't really make that argument because I know Sanders(As great as he is)doesn't support such politics.
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I've read Deutscher's piece during breakfast, and it is indeed a very compelling text. While I agree with some conclusions more than others, it is surely a basis on which matters can be discussed. Which is more of a praise than it may sound at first.

Let me put it like this: If the dominant left discourses about Jewish history, antisemitism, Zionism, and the Israeli/Arab conflict(s) would be anywhere near this level of reflection and historical consciousness, there would be no (or at least much less) need for these constant infights.

But the manichaeisms under which these things are commonly perceived and treated are the opposite of that. As I see it, they are designed to smother the awareness of much of what Deutscher writes about so knowledgeably and candidly. His piece contains, not by coincidence, a lot of the things I called evasive further up.

(This is a more matter-of-fact, "political" take on this writing than it should be - larger parts, in their depth, are indeed very moving.)
 
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ROFLUTION said:
Yeah huge hypocracy too in my opinion. Ive seen radical Sanders supporters smearing Biden with the spread of all this. They're fighting Trump when he goes to these extremes and accuses/labels with no and very little evidence, yet use the same smear-campaign approach. Completely stupid imo. Playing it into Trumps small little hands, legitimizing that this is an OK way to campaign. I dont even think Sanders himself likes this way of campaigning
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Its probably because a sizable chunk of Sanders supporters are political grifters - non Democrats who would rather Trump win, as a device to weaken the Democratic establishment in the hope that they can then become the new Democratic party.

 
Raoul said:
Its probably because a sizable chunk of Sanders supporters are political grifters - non Democrats who would rather Trump win, as a device to weaken the Democratic establishment in the hope that they can then become the new Democratic party.

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That’s considerably less than the 28% of Clinton supporters who said they’d vote for McCain over Obama.
 
Raoul said:
Its probably because a sizable chunk of Sanders supporters are political grifters - non Democrats who would rather Trump win, as a device to weaken the Democratic establishment in the hope that they can then become the new Democratic party.
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Grifters mean they would be making money off this, I am a canvasser for Bernie and I won't make any more money if Biden loses.
 
Raoul said:
Its probably because a sizable chunk of Sanders supporters are political grifters - non Democrats who would rather Trump win, as a device to weaken the Democratic establishment in the hope that they can then become the new Democratic party.

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Sounds about right. I have a Sanders-friend who wanted Trump to win last time, so that everything could be burned down and ready for a fresh start under Sanders. Now here we are and Sanders couldnt get the votes. So only the shitty part of the prediction turned true.

I dont even get the need to be that radical. Sanders is way more left-ish than most democrats, but the thing he has on his agenda is stuff that would benefit the average american. Its not radical to me, but then again I come from Denmark, where we're all very happy about the taxes we pay and the society we've build.
 
Sweet Square said:
I quite like Deutsche - Message Of The Non - Jewish Jew, as a way for left politics to get past what I would say are at best, very misguided attacks from well meaningful liberals
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Funny how these things go. I’d consider Deutscher - along with Maxime Rodinson - to be one of the biggest influences on the way I think about questions concerning Israel, Zionism, and anti-semitism. Indeed much of the frustration I’ve expressed on this forum regarding the contemporary leftist approach to these questions stems from the way (I believe) the left has pretty much abandoned what I see as these two writers’ informed critique in favor of a crude and flawed reductionism. (Not that I don’t find some of Deutscher’s assumptions problematic, but my critique there would probably be judged to come from the right, not left).
 
ROFLUTION said:
Sounds about right. I have a Sanders-friend who wanted Trump to win last time, so that everything could be burned down and ready for a fresh start under Sanders. Now here we are and Sanders couldnt get the votes. So only the shitty part of the prediction turned true.

I dont even get the need to be that radical. Sanders is way more left-ish than most democrats, but the thing he has on his agenda is stuff that would benefit the average american. Its not radical to me, but then again I come from Denmark, where we're all very happy about the taxes we pay and the society we've build.
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I think Sanders is a good guy and I would vote for him in a heartbeat if he was the nominee. Even if elected, his agenda would never see the light of day since there's no support in Congress to make his policies a reality. Both he and Biden would be light years better than what would happen under a second Trump term.
 
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Raoul said:
Its probably because a sizable chunk of Sanders supporters are political grifters - non Democrats who would rather Trump win, as a device to weaken the Democratic establishment in the hope that they can then become the new Democratic party.

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The reality is that neither Biden nor Sanders will likely beat Trump in November, unless Trump is successfully (and rightfully) blamed for the explosion about to occur with coronavirus deaths. Both are bad presidential candidates for different reasons (Biden is not inspiring and his age is clearly catching up with him while Bernie cant unify enough people and is overrated as a "visionary" as he's never achieved anything meaningful). Average Joe American really only cares about his 401k and having someone in the White House who is perceived as a strong leader, whether it's due to facts or bs in the case of Trump. It doesn't matter to Average Joe about facts or bs as the lie of Trump being a strong leader papers over their own insecurities about being a loser.
 
sport2793 said:
The reality is that neither Biden nor Sanders will likely beat Trump in November, unless Trump is successfully (and rightfully) blamed for the explosion about to occur with coronavirus deaths. Both are bad presidential candidates for different reasons (Biden is not inspiring and his age is clearly catching up with him while Bernie cant unify enough people and is overrated as a "visionary" as he's never achieved anything meaningful). Average Joe American really only cares about his 401k and having someone in the White House who is perceived as a strong leader, whether it's due to facts or bs in the case of Trump. It doesn't matter to Average Joe about facts or bs as the lie of Trump being a strong leader papers over their own insecurities about being a loser.
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Agree. So may people are tied to 401k performance and Trump is fully aware of what may happen if the market doesn't recover before the election. Basically the 2020 version of "It's the economy, stupid". That said, there are also plenty of people who are appalled at Trump's behavior, many of which live in the middle of the political spectrum, which is why Biden, despite being old and generic, will have a good chance to win this fall.
 
Raoul said:
Agree. So may people are tied to 401k performance and Trump is fully aware of what may happen if the market doesn't recover before the election. Basically the 2020 version of "It's the economy, stupid". That said, there are also plenty of people who are appalled at Trump's behavior, many of which live in the middle of the political spectrum, which is why Biden, despite being old and generic, will have a good chance to win this fall.
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Funny enough, the person who coined the prophetic "It's the economy, stupid" phrase was recently criticized/dismissed as a hack on this thread by hardcore Sanders supporters. Explains why they will always be on the losing side of elections.
 
Raoul said:
Agree. So may people are tied to 401k performance and Trump is fully aware of what may happen if the market doesn't recover before the election. Basically the 2020 version of "It's the economy, stupid". That said, there are also plenty of people who are appalled at Trump's behavior, many of which live in the middle of the political spectrum, which is why Biden, despite being old and generic, will have a good chance to win this fall.
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The median retirement balances are really quite worrying. A lot of Americans, perhaps most, aren't close to being financially secure in their retirements.
 
sport2793 said:
Funny enough, the person who coined the prophetic "It's the economy, stupid" phrase was recently criticized/dismissed as a hack on this thread by hardcore Sanders supporters. Explains why they will always be on the losing side of elections.
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Calling Clinton a hack is the reason Sanders lost the nomination. We're not worthy of your genius.
 
Florida Man said:
Calling Clinton a hack is the reason Sanders lost the nomination. We're not worthy of your genius.
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Also, it goes without saying that the RedCafe "hardcore supporters" have tremendous impact on the campaign of... well, I was going to say Sanders, but it seems like he's making an even bigger point than that by saying "losing side of elections", so let's just go with every leftist running for election wherever forever.
 
Raoul said:
I think Sanders is a good guy and I would vote for him in a heartbeat if he was the nominee. Even if elected, his agenda would never see the light of day since there's no support in Congress to make his policies a reality. Both he and Biden would be light years better than what would happen under a second Trump term.
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Also, in case the corona pandemic goes over the next year (likely), I would trust someone who is not a narcissist moron to be in charge.
 
2cents said:
Funny how these things go. I’d consider Deutscher - along with Maxime Rodinson - to be one of the biggest influences on the way I think about questions concerning Israel, Zionism, and anti-semitism. Indeed much of the frustration I’ve expressed on this forum regarding the contemporary leftist approach to these questions stems from the way (I believe) the left has pretty much abandoned what I see as these two writers’ informed critique in favor of a crude and flawed reductionism. (Not that I don’t find some of Deutscher’s assumptions problematic, but my critique there would probably be judged to come from the right, not left).
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I can imagine what some of them are, and - if I'm guessing them right - such things have been criticized from a left perspective as well.

I generally find the right/left labels of lesser interest when it comes to critical analysis. When materialism isn't able to incorporate obvious corrections and new lessons, it's done wrong.

(Okay, enough OT for me then.)
 
Florida Man said:
Neoliberals: I think Bernie has better policies but won’t vote for him because some people wrote mean tweets
Also neoliberals: Let’s vote for the rapist with better policies
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What’s the difference between the use of ‘liberal’ and ‘neoliberal’ in this context?
 
Symone Sanders, Biden spokeswoman, and Jill Filipovic, Guardian feminist, have both deleted all their tweets about Kavanaugh.
 
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