2020 US Elections | Biden certified as President | Dems control Congress

Status
Not open for further replies.
You never know what's going to happen until two candidates actually face one another. Much of her baggage was dredged up by Trump's propaganda machine. Take for instance Bannon showing up with a small platoon of Bill Clinton's previously mothballed accusers just prior to the debate - or - the "she's ill and may not be able to serve as President" campaign by Giuliani and others. The Trump/Bannon/Mercer axis wouldn't care how good or bad a person was before the debate; their only objective would be to politically assassinate your credibility by using any combination of truth and lies to get there. Therefore its a bit speculative to coronate Sanders with the simple knowledge of how he was polling against Trump in the primaries.

I think you are underestimating two very powerful cultural forces and not giving enough credit to the fact the Clintons made their own bed of awful baggage.

First, the sheer amount of irrational hate Hilary Clinton generates among moderate-centrists and conservatives has lasted 20+ years. I linked a survey earlier that showed 53% of Trump voters said they were specifically voting Against Hilary. That was the highest number ever recorded since they started recording that stat.

Even more people voted specifically against Hilary than against Trump. Anyone who conducted focus groups instead of polls like Michael Moore and Frank Luntz could see how much more powerful the dislike for Hilary was than just about any other Democrat in history including the first black President. Its certainly an interesting phenomenon because Hilary is more center-right than most Democrats yet in my experience she was vastly more hated than even Obama, Warren or anyone. I definitely heard more random moderates and conservatives at airports, truck stops etc, just chatting mad shite about Hilary from 2008-2016.

Second, the progressive wing of the Democrat party had long abandoned her and her husband and that is the very base the Democrats need to motivate to get out the vote to win. Its important to remember that Bill Clinton was out there campaigning for Hilary. That alone is enough to turn off a lot of progressives who lived through the Clinton years. Defense of marriage act, Three Strikes Laws, Hilary's corporate alliances with Wal Mart (where she was on the Board in the 1980s when Bill was Gov in Arkansas) and Wall Street, etc made Hilary the weakest candidate possible at turning out the Democrat voter base.

There simply isn't another living person that could simultaneously piss off progressives enough to not vote for her while at the same time energizing the conservatives into a mad frenzied voter turnout. Literally no one.

Trump had an easy time because Hilary had 3 decades of hatred built up on both the moderate-conservatives and progressives. Its truly remarkable how she could piss off such two ideologically diverse groups at the same time.

Here is a great article on Clinton baggage. The Clinton's baggage was not invented by Trump. He simply tapped into the Democrats making the worst strategic decision in a nomination in the history of American politics. And before the objection that this article is on Bill its important to remember they really come as a couple - Hilary used her experience as First Lady heavily involved in policy as an argument for why she was qualified for Senator in 2000 so she can't have it both ways:

"Now, the relevance of all of this to the present election can be debated. It is typical for Hillary Clinton’s supporters to point out that holding Hillary accountable for her husband’s actions is unfair at best and sexist at worst. Hillary Clinton was, of course, a major power in Bill’s administration and his equal partner in a joint political venture. But more importantly, Bill’s recent comments have been made as part of the campaign. Bill was defending this record on behalf of Hillary Clinton, to thousands of her supporters. If Hillary Clinton didn’t have Bill Clinton out front speaking about the Clinton Administration, it might be fair to ask people not to associate them. But since she has chosen him to be an ambassador for her message, we must at least assume that she does not think him as heinous as the record proves he is."

"A theme therefore runs through Clinton’s entire political career: black lives have never mattered to him, except to the extent that they conferred black political support. "

prisoners-1024x646.png


"But in order to understand Clinton, it is important to set aside the idea that his heart must necessarily have been in the right place. The evidence suggests something different, something far simpler and more logical: Clinton treated black interests with total mercenary cynicism. If cultivating their support helped him, Clinton would go to every length to connect with black voters. But the moment he faced a difficult choice between the politically expedient thing to do and the racially just thing to do, there was quite literally no harm he was unwilling to inflict upon black people in order to secure even minor political victories.

This was most starkly evident in criminal justice. From the very beginning, Clinton made a point of, as Alexander puts it, “signaling to poor and working-class whites that he was willing to be tougher on black communities than Republicans had been.” This is not just speculative interpretation on Alexander’s part; Clinton made it quite clear. During the 1992 election, just before Super Tuesday, Clinton traveled to Stone Mountain Correctional Institution in Stone Mountain, Georgia. There, he stood next to conservative Southern Democrats Sam Nunn and Zell Miller, as well as Dukes of Hazzard star Ben Jones (recently heard prominently defending the Confederate flag), posing for photographers in front of a group of black inmates. (See image above.) Clinton quite literally made a prop out of a group of convicts...

Another 1992 incident displayed that ruthlessness even more starkly: the execution of Ricky Ray Rector. It’s a chapter in Clinton political history that has become moderately infamous, but most accounts fail to convey the full calculating brutality of Clinton’s actions...

Ricky Ray Rector was a black prisoner in Arkansas who had been convicted of murder and was scheduled for execution. But Rector was severely brain damaged, having shot himself in the head after shooting the victim; he was missing one-third of his brain and had been effectively lobotomized. As a result, Ricky Ray Rector’s mental functioning was that of a very young child...

Clinton refused to grant clemency. Rector was executed on January 24, 1992. It is unlikely he had any idea what was about to happen. When he had his last meal, Rector set the dessert aside for later, even though there wouldn’t be a later. And in a pitiful and poignant detail, the night before his execution, watching Clinton on television, Rector said that he planned to vote for him in November.

There was no mystery as to why Clinton had refused to grant Rector clemency. Earlier in his political career, Clinton had lost a race against a “law and order” candidate, and those around him said he was determined not to make the same mistake twice. And it worked:

Intended or not, in the following months the political value of Rector’s execution became abundantly clear. It knocked the law-and-order issue out of the campaign. One commentator said it showed Clinton was “a different sort of Democrat.” As another put it, “he had someone put to death who only had half a brain. You don’t find them any tougher than that.”

Or, as former prosecutor and Arkansas ACLU director Jay Jacobson said, “You can’t law-and-order Clinton… If you can kill Rector, you can kill anybody.” In the general election, the National Association of Police Organizations endorsed Clinton over Bush, and so did a law enforcement group in Bush’s home state of Texas.

Clinton did not just simply allow Rector to die, however. In fact, he was active in using Rector’s death politically, flying back to Arkansas just so he could be there for the execution. As The Guardian reported:

The same week, Gennifer Flowers came forward with her story of a 12-year affair with the candidate. Beset by crisis, Governor Clinton broke off his campaign in New Hampshire to return to Little Rock for Rector’s execution. There was no legal obligation on him to do so; as the Houston Chronicle remarked, “never – or at least not in the recent history of presidential campaigns – has a contender for the nation’s highest elective office stepped off the campaign trail to ensure the killing of a prisoner.”

The Ricky Ray Rector case has been mentioned from time to time as a controversial Clinton act. But it’s important to be clear about just what Clinton did: he deliberately had a hallucinating disabled man killed, in an execution so callous it made even the warden queasy. He personally ensured the execution of a mental child so as not to appear weak...

But there are plenty of other, less viscerally appalling instances of the same phenomenon: Clinton shoring up political support by demonstrating that he was more willing than Republicans to inflict harm and suffering on black people, securing the black vote through words and the white vote through deeds.

This is precisely what happened in criminal justice policy. When the United States Sentencing Commission recommended that Clinton close the 100-to-1 disparity in sentencing for crack and powder cocaine, Clinton refused, in a decision Jesse Jackson called “a moral disgrace,” and observing accurately that Clinton was “willing to sacrifice young black youth for white fear.” In his own defense, Clinton said that “I am not going to let anyone who peddles drugs get the idea that the cost of doing business is going down. "

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2016/04/bill-clinton-has-always-been-this-person
 
Last edited:
I think you are underestimating two very powerful cultural forces and not giving enough credit to the fact the Clintons made their own bed of awful baggage.

First, the sheer amount of irrational hate Hilary Clinton generates among moderate-centrists and conservatives has lasted 20+ years. I linked a survey earlier that showed 53% of Trump voters said they were specifically voting Against Hilary. That was the highest number ever recorded since they started recording that stat.

Even more people voted specifically against Hilary than against Trump. Anyone who conducted focus groups instead of polls like Michael Moore and Frank Luntz could see how much more powerful the dislike for Hilary was than just about any other Democrat in history including the first black President. Its certainly an interesting phenomenon because Hilary is more center-right than most Democrats yet in my experience she was vastly more hated than even Obama, Warren or anyone. I definitely heard more random moderates and conservatives at airports, truck stops etc, just chatting mad shite about Hilary from 2008-2016.

Second, the progressive wing of the Democrat party had long abandoned her and her husband and that is the very base the Democrats need to motivate to get out the vote to win. Its important to remember that Bill Clinton was out there campaigning for Hilary. That alone is enough to turn off a lot of progressives who lived through the Clinton years. Defense of marriage act, Three Strikes Laws, Hilary's corporate alliances with Wal Mart (where she was on the Board in the 1980s when Bill was Gov in Arkansas) and Wall Street, etc made Hilary the weakest candidate possible at turning out the Democrat voter base.

There simply isn't another living person that could simultaneously piss off progressives enough to not vote for her while at the same time energizing the conservatives into a mad frenzied voter turnout. Literally no one.

Trump had an easy time because Hilary had 3 decades of hatred built up on both the moderate-conservatives and progressives. Its truly remarkable how she could piss off such two ideologically diverse groups at the same time.

Here is a great article on Clinton baggage. The Clinton's baggage was not invented by Trump. He simply tapped into the Democrats making the worst strategic decision in a nomination in the history of American politics. And before the objection that this article is on Bill its important to remember they really come as a couple - Hilary used her experience as First Lady heavily involved in policy as an argument for why she was qualified for Senator in 2000 so she can't have it both ways:

"Now, the relevance of all of this to the present election can be debated. It is typical for Hillary Clinton’s supporters to point out that holding Hillary accountable for her husband’s actions is unfair at best and sexist at worst. Hillary Clinton was, of course, a major power in Bill’s administration and his equal partner in a joint political venture. But more importantly, Bill’s recent comments have been made as part of the campaign. Bill was defending this record on behalf of Hillary Clinton, to thousands of her supporters. If Hillary Clinton didn’t have Bill Clinton out front speaking about the Clinton Administration, it might be fair to ask people not to associate them. But since she has chosen him to be an ambassador for her message, we must at least assume that she does not think him as heinous as the record proves he is."

"A theme therefore runs through Clinton’s entire political career: black lives have never mattered to him, except to the extent that they conferred black political support. "

prisoners-1024x646.png


"But in order to understand Clinton, it is important to set aside the idea that his heart must necessarily have been in the right place. The evidence suggests something different, something far simpler and more logical: Clinton treated black interests with total mercenary cynicism. If cultivating their support helped him, Clinton would go to every length to connect with black voters. But the moment he faced a difficult choice between the politically expedient thing to do and the racially just thing to do, there was quite literally no harm he was unwilling to inflict upon black people in order to secure even minor political victories.

This was most starkly evident in criminal justice. From the very beginning, Clinton made a point of, as Alexander puts it, “signaling to poor and working-class whites that he was willing to be tougher on black communities than Republicans had been.” This is not just speculative interpretation on Alexander’s part; Clinton made it quite clear. During the 1992 election, just before Super Tuesday, Clinton traveled to Stone Mountain Correctional Institution in Stone Mountain, Georgia. There, he stood next to conservative Southern Democrats Sam Nunn and Zell Miller, as well as Dukes of Hazzard star Ben Jones (recently heard prominently defending the Confederate flag), posing for photographers in front of a group of black inmates. (See image above.) Clinton quite literally made a prop out of a group of convicts...

Another 1992 incident displayed that ruthlessness even more starkly: the execution of Ricky Ray Rector. It’s a chapter in Clinton political history that has become moderately infamous, but most accounts fail to convey the full calculating brutality of Clinton’s actions...

Ricky Ray Rector was a black prisoner in Arkansas who had been convicted of murder and was scheduled for execution. But Rector was severely brain damaged, having shot himself in the head after shooting the victim; he was missing one-third of his brain and had been effectively lobotomized. As a result, Ricky Ray Rector’s mental functioning was that of a very young child...

Clinton refused to grant clemency. Rector was executed on January 24, 1992. It is unlikely he had any idea what was about to happen. When he had his last meal, Rector set the dessert aside for later, even though there wouldn’t be a later. And in a pitiful and poignant detail, the night before his execution, watching Clinton on television, Rector said that he planned to vote for him in November.

There was no mystery as to why Clinton had refused to grant Rector clemency. Earlier in his political career, Clinton had lost a race against a “law and order” candidate, and those around him said he was determined not to make the same mistake twice. And it worked:

Intended or not, in the following months the political value of Rector’s execution became abundantly clear. It knocked the law-and-order issue out of the campaign. One commentator said it showed Clinton was “a different sort of Democrat.” As another put it, “he had someone put to death who only had half a brain. You don’t find them any tougher than that.”

Or, as former prosecutor and Arkansas ACLU director Jay Jacobson said, “You can’t law-and-order Clinton… If you can kill Rector, you can kill anybody.” In the general election, the National Association of Police Organizations endorsed Clinton over Bush, and so did a law enforcement group in Bush’s home state of Texas.

Clinton did not just simply allow Rector to die, however. In fact, he was active in using Rector’s death politically, flying back to Arkansas just so he could be there for the execution. As The Guardian reported:

The same week, Gennifer Flowers came forward with her story of a 12-year affair with the candidate. Beset by crisis, Governor Clinton broke off his campaign in New Hampshire to return to Little Rock for Rector’s execution. There was no legal obligation on him to do so; as the Houston Chronicle remarked, “never – or at least not in the recent history of presidential campaigns – has a contender for the nation’s highest elective office stepped off the campaign trail to ensure the killing of a prisoner.”

The Ricky Ray Rector case has been mentioned from time to time as a controversial Clinton act. But it’s important to be clear about just what Clinton did: he deliberately had a hallucinating disabled man killed, in an execution so callous it made even the warden queasy. He personally ensured the execution of a mental child so as not to appear weak...

But there are plenty of other, less viscerally appalling instances of the same phenomenon: Clinton shoring up political support by demonstrating that he was more willing than Republicans to inflict harm and suffering on black people, securing the black vote through words and the white vote through deeds.

This is precisely what happened in criminal justice policy. When the United States Sentencing Commission recommended that Clinton close the 100-to-1 disparity in sentencing for crack and powder cocaine, Clinton refused, in a decision Jesse Jackson called “a moral disgrace,” and observing accurately that Clinton was “willing to sacrifice young black youth for white fear.” In his own defense, Clinton said that “I am not going to let anyone who peddles drugs get the idea that the cost of doing business is going down. "

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2016/04/bill-clinton-has-always-been-this-person

Yes, the Clintons have a deeply checkered past. The point here is that Hillary was a very viable candidate and it took a confluence of bizarre events to derail what seemed to be a pretty strong candidacy. She faced the Trump washing machine and ultimately got derailed. Sanders never had to face it so his euphorically high polling in a hypothetical matchup with Trump would've likely come crashing down once Trump's negativity machine went into full motion.
 
Hillary is as middle of the road a Dem can be but with Sanders there would have been a self-admitted socialist on the presidential ballot. Socialism is a huge buzzword for Americans. The right-wing media and GOP benefactors would have had a field day with fearmongering and tearing down Sanders. Although it would have been interesting watching two populist candidates battling it out, both outsiders to the parties that nominated them. Maybe Sanders wins, maybe he loses out narrowly, hypotheticals are just that. But the cult worship of both is mind-numbing.
 
Yes, the Clintons have a deeply checkered past. The point here is that Hillary was a very viable candidate and it took a confluence of bizarre events to derail what seemed to be a pretty strong candidacy. She faced the Trump washing machine and ultimately got derailed. Sanders never had to face it so his euphorically high polling in a hypothetical matchup with Trump would've likely come crashing down once Trump's negativity machine went into full motion.


I would disagree with that interpretation. I would say she was actually a very weak candidate whose depth of weakness was masked during the primary by the Clinton political machine trying to clean the field completely of any competition because "it was her turn". I think if the Democrats actually had a primary in 2016 with 10 viable candidates like the Republicans she wouldn't have had a chance to come out of the primary.
As I said there was not a single living person who could simultaneous depress the progressive vote while igniting the conservatives voter turn out. No one was as susceptible to the Trump propaganda as HRC.
 
Hillary is as middle of the road a Dem can be but with Sanders there would have been a self-admitted socialist on the presidential ballot. Socialism is a huge buzzword for Americans. The right-wing media and GOP benefactors would have had a field day with fearmongering and tearing down Sanders. Although it would have been interesting watching two populist candidates battling it out, both outsiders to the parties that nominated them. Maybe Sanders wins, maybe he loses out narrowly, hypotheticals are just that. But the cult worship of both is mind-numbing.

Spot on. If you want to mobilize the right then just go left.
 
Hillary is as middle of the road a Dem can be but with Sanders there would have been a self-admitted socialist on the presidential ballot. Socialism is a huge buzzword for Americans. The right-wing media and GOP benefactors would have had a field day with fearmongering and tearing down Sanders. Although it would have been interesting watching two populist candidates battling it out, both outsiders to the parties that nominated them. Maybe Sanders wins, maybe he loses out narrowly, hypotheticals are just that. But the cult worship of both is mind-numbing.

Spot on. If you want to mobilize the right then just go left.

Two flaws to this line. First, more people hate Clinton than hate Universal Healthcare as recent polls have proven. Two, you are underestimating the 90 million+ that didn't vote that make up a good chunk of the majority that actually want universal healthcare. While 'Socialist Bernie' *might* have driven more conservatives to vote than 'Crooked Hilary' he absolutely would have gotten a lot more progressives and part of that 90 million to vote.

Anyway this is the 2020 election thread so let's move on from talking about the Billary clan in this thread.
 
Two flaws to this line. First, more people hate Clinton than hate Universal Healthcare as recent polls have proven. Two, you are underestimating the 90 million+ that didn't vote that make up a good chunk of the majority that actually want universal healthcare. While 'Socialist Bernie' *might* have driven more conservatives to vote than 'Crooked Hilary' he absolutely would have gotten a lot more progressives and part of that 90 million to vote.

Anyway this is the 2020 election thread so let's move on from talking about the Billary clan in this thread.

The trouble with this logic is that people often don't vote on policy but on likability and identity. The 90 million you cite aren't going to vote in the future if they haven't voted in the past. Some people are just not interested in civic participation because they don't see it as making a tangible improvement in their lives, which isn't likely to change in the future.
 
The trouble with this logic is that people often don't vote on policy but on likability and identity. The 90 million you cite aren't going to vote in the future if they haven't voted in the past. Some people are just not interested in civic participation because they don't see it as making a tangible improvement in their lives, which isn't likely to change in the future.

My argument is not based on policy but on moral frame ala George Lakoff
Essentially Clinton had the narrowest moral frame of any candidate I can think of in memory. Bernie, Biden, Warren all would be more potentially attractive to that 90 million. Its not like they need anywhere all of them to turn out in a close election. Even just 5% or even 1% of that 90 million could have swung the election.

http://www.tmrussia.org/sites/defau...The Essential Guide for Progressives 2004.pdf

https://georgelakoff.files.wordpres...servatives-have-left-liberals-in-the-dust.pdf
 
Sorry. The socialist card does not work anymore. Most voters just shurg. They prefer socialism to capitalism.
And Only Hillary could have lost WI,MI and PA. When did a Democrat last lose these states.
I saw those Trump rallies. "Lock her up." Her stupidity of having a private server and ignoring a Federal subpoena. Her dishonesty was reinforced. Say one thing and turn around and say the opposite.
Its policies that drive people to the polls...and who advocates them. A trustworthy candidate.
Middle of the road candidates who spout the same waffle will fail.

Biden. His name was pushed to stop another Hillary run. She wont run, neither will he.
 
Sorry. The socialist card does not work anymore. Most voters just shurg. They prefer socialism to capitalism.
And Only Hillary could have lost WI,MI and PA. When did a Democrat last lose these states.
I saw those Trump rallies. "Lock her up." Her stupidity of having a private server and ignoring a Federal subpoena. Her dishonesty was reinforced. Say one thing and turn around and say the opposite.
Its policies that drive people to the polls...and who advocates them. A trustworthy candidate.
Middle of the road candidates who spout the same waffle will fail.

Biden. His name was pushed to stop another Hillary run. She wont run, neither will he.

The voters don't prefer socialism to capitalism otherwise the country would be full on socialist or social democratic. They are however amenable to a more balanced blend of social-democratic governance that addresses the healthcare and education issues. And frankly, whoever wins the next election won't make a tangible difference anyway since the opposition will simply regroup and block as much as they can so they can vilify the majority before the next mid term cycle.
 
The voters don't prefer socialism to capitalism otherwise the country would be full on socialist or social democratic. They are however amenable to a more balanced blend of social-democratic governance that addresses the healthcare and education issues. And frankly, whoever wins the next election won't make a tangible difference anyway since the opposition will simply regroup and block as much as they can so they can vilify the majority before the next mid term cycle.

Socialist Democratic issues like Health Care and education have not been focused as they are now..certainly since 2016. 2018 will ensure control of at least the House. Perhaps even the Senate.
The goal is Power. These policies resonate.
They can regroup all they want. What are they going to do blame Illegals?...let them.

Tomorrow that rally about Charlotsville. As much as I sympathise with the AntiFA, they should not confront the sub human racists.
Focus on helping Social Democrats. Keep the powder dry.

We will deal with them when we have absolute power.
That should be the goal.
 
The voters don't prefer socialism to capitalism otherwise the country would be full on socialist or social democratic.

maybe in a country where voter feedback mattered. but our system is so corrupted that it doesnt really make a difference. gun control, for example, has always polled well yet it can never get anywhere in the legislative system
 
Repeating yourself doesn’t make what you say true.

If you think all the Hillary voters will all vote for Sanders if the superdelegates gave him the nomination despite her million more primary votes you’re dreaming


This . Bernie wouldn't have won then and certainly won't win in 2020.

It's 6th form stuff to think the likes of Bernie and Corbyn would ever win power
 
Bernie would have won.

It’s not about overturning would-be Hillary voters, it’s about all the voters who voted Trump because they wanted to shake up the system. He’s no run-of-the-mill politician, Hillary would definitely mean no significant change to speak of, and to that group Bernie would definitely have been an option to Trump.
 
Bernie would have won.

It’s not about overturning would-be Hillary voters, it’s about all the voters who voted Trump because they wanted to shake up the system. He’s no run-of-the-mill politician, Hillary would definitely mean no significant change to speak of, and to that group Bernie would definitely have been an option to Trump.
You gain some you lose some, fact is Hillary got more votes than any presidential candidate other than Obama in 2010. Many of them would have voted for Sanders, a sizable portion wouldn’t if they stole the nomination from her
 
You gain some you lose some, fact is Hillary got more votes than any presidential candidate other than Obama in 2010. Many of them would have voted for Sanders, a sizable portion wouldn’t if they stole the nomination from her
That's called population increase.
 
That's called population increase.
How do you explain Trump only getting marginally more votes than Bush in 2004?
62,040,610 in 2004 to 62,979,636 in 2016

Incidentally, Kerry got 59,028,444 in 2004 and Hillary 65,844,610 in 2016
 
How do you explain Trump only getting marginally more votes than Bush in 2004?
62,040,610 in 2004 to 62,979,636 in 2016

Incidentally, Kerry got 59,028,444 in 2004 and Hillary 65,844,610 in 2016

Bush had a positive approval rating in advance of the 2004 election, while Trump was a historically unpopular candidate. I don't get how you think this is an argument for anything?
 
How do you explain Trump only getting marginally more votes than Bush in 2004?
62,040,610 in 2004 to 62,979,636 in 2016

Incidentally, Kerry got 59,028,444 in 2004 and Hillary 65,844,610 in 2016
New voters=Young voters=Left-leaning
 
Bush had a positive approval rating in advance of the 2004 election, while Trump was a historically unpopular candidate. I don't get how you think this is an argument for anything?
Hillary is also supposed to be historically unpopular according to the Bernie Bros on here, yet somehow got almost 7 million more votes than the Dem candidate 12 years before.

New voters=Young voters=Left-leaning
Young voters -> Time passes -> Older voters

Otherwise the Dems would win every election.
 
Hillary is also supposed to be historically unpopular according to the Bernie Bros on here, yet somehow got almost 7 million more votes than the Dem candidate 12 years before.


Young voters -> Time passes -> Older voters

Otherwise the Dems would win every election.

Hillary was historically unpopular, though. Obviously not so unpopular that she didn't win the primaries, but her unfavourable were basically higher than any other candidate in modern times (possibly with the exception of Trump). Clearly she still got more votes than him and should have won anyway, but the electoral college is a thing, and we can only discuss this with it in mind. But demographics have moved the needle even further towards the Democrats in the last few years, so she "won" (the popular vote) despite her relative unpopularity.
 
Hillary was historically unpopular, though. Obviously not so unpopular that she didn't win the primaries, but her unfavourable were basically higher than any other candidate in modern times (possibly with the exception of Trump). Clearly she still got more votes than him and should have won anyway, but the electoral college is a thing, and we can only discuss this with it in mind. But demographics have moved the needle even further towards the Democrats in the last few years, so she "won" (the popular vote) despite her relative unpopularity.
I agree with all that, Hillary has her flaws, but I just disagree with the notion that Sanders would definitely have won.
 
Hillary is also supposed to be historically unpopular according to the Bernie Bros on here, yet somehow got almost 7 million more votes than the Dem candidate 12 years before.


Young voters -> Time passes -> Older voters

Otherwise the Dems would win every election.
Not necessarily true, the definitions of what is right and what is left drift over time. 2004-2016 not long enough for that to develop.
 
I agree with all that, Hillary has her flaws, but I just disagree with the notion that Sanders would definitely have won.
Or he could have run as a true independent. I reckon Hillary and himself would have left trump in a very distant 3rd. I dont think anybody really disagrees with Sanders policy points although to pay for these changes would have been interesting to see. With a president, pen ready for a total course correction for this country the debate on a bloated military and income inequality would have been epic. Including the appeal of not having you're employer involved in you're healthcare.
The issue though is with Sanders supporters refusing to suck it up and vote for someone sensible, with baggage, but moderately normal when the other option is donald fecking trump. Hillary would have been boring and her term may have been clogged up with conservatives loosing their fecking minds, funny but not productive.
A monumental feck up of civic duty lies on the heads of over half this country. They can begin to correct it by championing candidates over the next 10 years who can bring it all together instead of pissing in they're pants because the person running isn't all in to solving they're trigger points.
We can start by getting Nancy Pelosi and Tom Perez to step back and put in a war time Democratic leaders who can start making everybody's lives outside of the top 0.1% a bit better. We also need to not jump in head first on messiah candidates who little ben shapiro find so easy to bully or we could end up with our own donald trump.
Maybe Bernie Sanders could jump on the ticket for someone nice and early then age won't be such a concern. He can shape the platform and share the battle. The Dems should shake it up and announce they're running mates early, that way you can hit two states simultaneously and spread that message further and clearer. Newsom/Sanders would be my dream ticket with Tim Ryan leader in the house. Head of the DNC has me stumped, someone who could shore up the midwest and start bringing the truth to these red states while keeping a respectable appeal in the blue pockets. But who?
 
Not necessarily true, the definitions of what is right and what is left drift over time. 2004-2016 not long enough for that to develop.

False. I was a registered Republican circa 2004. I distanced myself from the party after Mitch McConnell stood up there on his high horse telling all that the GOP's primary mission was to make Obama a one-term president. No, your primary mission is to govern not play powerball. I fully withdrew from the GOP once the TP nutters and other bullshit made its way to the forefront, as well as making myself more aware of actual politics.

I'm sure there are many more like me that switched political parties in the past 15-20 years.
 
False. I was a registered Republican circa 2004. I distanced myself from the party after Mitch McConnell stood up there on his high horse telling all that the GOP's primary mission was to make Obama a one-term president. No, your primary mission is to govern not play powerball. I fully withdrew from the GOP once the TP nutters and other bullshit made its way to the forefront, as well as making myself more aware of actual politics.

I'm sure there are many more like me that switched political parties in the past 15-20 years.
I admire your decision and action, but that is not really related to what I was saying.
 
The exact words could’ve been said of Trump in early 2015.
Yeah fair point but at least with Trump he had a well known tv show and had been around for decades. What I'm trying to say is that if Avenatti starts wrestling then I'll take his bid for president seriously.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.