The fact that that they are owned by corporations is not something you are going to change overnight. That is the way the US political system works. It has to be done slowly.
Last page of this thread got me confused. Who am I supposed to be angry at?
Well you’re never going to get a Bernie type as President if you allow the GOP to win the Presidency. You’ll be lucky in 6 years time if you have a vote at all. You’ll be lucky if the GOP don’t tear up the Constitution and write a new one. You’ll be lucky if you have any semblance of a reasonable judicial system. You’ll be lucky if there hasn’t be a form of genocide on a wider scale than you would have thought possible and you’ll be lucky if Big Corporations aren’t ruling you for the rest of your lives.
But hey, carry on protesting by spoiling ballot papers if that’s the way you want to go.
Sure, let's protest vote and get Trump elected.
Well you’re never going to get a Bernie type as President if you allow the GOP to win the Presidency.
You didn’t understand what I said at all did you.This is not valid logic. We obviously will never get a Bernie type as President if people keep insisting on voting for a Biden type in the primaries.
Eli Manning
You didn’t understand what I said at all did you.
Well it’s fortunate that I understand me isn’t it.You lost me too.
He's given me too much to ever be mad at him. I rant at Dave Gettleman instead.
You didn’t understand what I said at all did you.
Yes, I see what you’re saying here and I agree. But that wasn’t my point.My point is I get what you're point is but objectively speaking I think you are simply using the wrong strategy to get your point across. In terms of game theory, the corporate dem strategy is simply not Pareto optimal.
For me it's as simple as this. In the last 30 years the one election where the Democrats pushed a progressive populist message (Obama in '08) had the best turnout percentage wise since 1968. The strongest strategy is what Obama did in 2008 (progressive message to drive turnout from the bottom up of the base) not what Hilary did in 2016, not what Kerry did 2004, not what Clinton did in 1992.
1988 181,956,000 91,587,000 50.3%
1992 189,493,000 104,600,000 55.2%
1996 196,789,000 96,390,000 49.0%
2000 209,787,000 105,594,000 50.3%
2004 219,553,000 122,349,000 55.7%
2008 229,945,000 131,407,000 58.2%
2012 235,248,000 129,235,000 54.9%
2016 250,056,000 (estimated)[10] 138,847,000 (estimated)[10] 55.5% (estimated)[10]
I think the big disconnect is between people who thought things were fine with Obama and people who realized how bad they were. Onenil is right that unless you are part of the communities that were destroyed by Clinton and Obama and corporate democratic policies you wont understand this. I dont know enough about fishfingers life to say for sure but if he is working corporate jobs in New York Chicago and Atlanta hes simply not going to understand what is happening in these communities. But as an immigrant he will understand more about what those communities go through than I or (presumably) onenil ever will. But the question about how we effect the change that I think both communities agree needs to happen. And I dont see how you can do it with anyone but Bernie. Harris, Biden, Buttigieg etc. They dont even want change. They're advocating for corporate control and neoliberalism. Warren I think wants to change some things but doesnt have the right critique to do it. "I have a plan for that" doesnt do shit against Mitch McConnell or the next Republican ghoul to come along. Theyve rigged the game so thoroughly that only a mass movement will do anything. And theres only one candidate calling for a mass movement. Fish has mentioned Betsy DeVos several times. And yes shes a monster. But the practical difference between her and Arne Duncan isnt very much. You cant just have different overseers of capital crushing the poor, you have to break capitals power entirely.
I reckon Onenil will continue his fight against Corporate Dems whilst Trump stacks conservatives judges and rolls back environment protection laws. He'll still be fighting corporates when teachers gets guns in schools and racism and bigotry gain prominence everywhere. His fight will continue when Dreamers get deported.
For a person who looks at America now and think Corporate Democrats are the biggest problem the country is facing, there really ain't much to say to.
I'm all for Bernie Sanders in the primary. But in the generals, I just don't think voting for any other candidate other than the one standing on the Democratic platform benefits any community apart from the social christian conservatives and the rich. I think you and zeronilinlife are idiots for protest voting in the generals. There's a big difference between blindly voting for Biden in the primary and voting for Biden in the General election. I think your votes are wasted as a protest vote in a two party system.
You are right, I can never understand the problems faced by the black community in high crime neighborhoods. I pay over the top premium rents in Doral FL and used to pay over the top rents in Norwalk, CT just sto avoid living in in Bridgeport, CT and Hialeah, FL because those areas as high crime areas with a high ratio of black population with low rent. But I think even those communities don't gain anything by me voting for Harambe in the general election. I'm sympathetic to Sanders but I also think it's stupid when people vote whomever they want and refuse to take any ownership for their votes and blame it on the candidates.
Yes, I'm close minded to this argument and I just can't understand yoru viewpoint.
I think you're missing that I'm not protest voting. I don't believe my one vote has any effect whether I write in a joke candidate or vote for a war criminal like Clinton. For me it's a personal matter of can I stomach voting for monsters I detest who have ruined millions of lives. For Obama I could stomach it, for Clinton I couldn't.
Last page of this thread got me confused. Who am I supposed to be angry at?
I think you're missing that I'm not protest voting. I don't believe my one vote has any effect whether I write in a joke candidate or vote for a war criminal like Clinton. For me it's a personal matter of can I stomach voting for monsters I detest who have ruined millions of lives. For Obama I could stomach it, for Clinton I couldn't.
Onenil is right that scolding people for voting third party is a bad strategy to prompt them into the fold. A better strategy is to adopt policies they care about.
I'm not so sensitive about being 'scolded'.
I am concerned that these centrists are unable to look at the bigger picture.
Because this is what the corporations are counting on.
The 'other guy' is worse.
Isn't he?
I'm not so sensitive about being 'scolded'.
I am concerned that these centrists are unable to look at the bigger picture.
Because this is what the corporations are counting on.
The 'other guy' is worse.
Doubling down on his conservative support and wait for the others to cannibalise each other.
As far as strategy goes, not necessarily bad, but if the field clears quickly he’d have a big problem.
This is what people who don't vote say, though. It's a fallacy because your one vote is never what's being focussed on, it's millions of people who think the same thing.
A big disconnect between liberals and leftists is that liberals think of Trumps presidency as a crisis whereas leftists recognized that even before Trump we were in crisis. If you are the type of lib that retweets Alyssa Milano or laughs at SNL sketches then politics has a very minor effect on your daily life. When trump president and you take your vacation to Europe you'll pretend to be from Canada and you'll watch MSNBC and br outraged over norms. But if you raised a family driving a forklift for gm and then lost your job in 08 and your house a couple years later when you couldnt find anything comparable you feel politics in a more immediate way. If you worked for detroit public schools and retired on a moderate pension but lost 40 cents on the dollar after retiring with a supposedly fixed inco,e then you feel the pain.
Fish you were right the other day to point out that most people don't experience, material pain from a trump presidency so it's disappointing to see you dismiss the material pain of the pre trump status quo.
Forget Biden. He won’t be in it at the end.
