2020 US Elections | Biden certified as President | Dems control Congress

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sebsheep said:
Why were the Trump supporters who turned up at the counting station to chant "count the votes" not chanting "only count the legal votes, disregard the illegal votes"? Why don't they want the illegal votes to be stopped?

The default position should be that votes are legally cast, otherwise you might as well scrap the system.
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Oh, he's serious? Help us all.
 
Raoul said:
He couldn’t get sufficient advertisers to back such an effort.
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Gold, seeds, cheap tactical equipment and erectile dysfunction pills. That plus a healthy dose of trump merch and Ivanka junk (most likely stolen designs).
If he goes down this path while getting the boot from Twitter I really don't see it lasting more than a couple of years. The attention span in this country is limited.
 
Ash Sarkar is joined by Naomi Klein to discuss what Biden in the White House means for the world, whether Trumpism has a future, and what next for the left.
 
GiddyUp said:
Gold, seeds, cheap tactical equipment and erectile dysfunction pills. That plus a healthy dose of trump merch and Ivanka junk (most likely stolen designs).
If he goes down this path while getting the boot from Twitter I really don't see it lasting more than a couple of years. The attention span in this country is limited.
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If he ever wanted to pursue the Trump tv idea, he would probably do well making it subscription based. I’m sure at least 5-10 million cult members would pay $9.99/mo to watch the likes of Kim Guilfoyle, Kayleigh McNanny, Dobbs, Jeanine Porto, Dan Bongino, and others rail against Trump’s opponents all day.
 
fishfingers15 said:
Somehow I relate coup with you as a poster. Were you the one who was going on and on about the impeachment procedures initiated against Trump tantamount to a coup? Or did you say impeachment by itself was a coup? The only coop you need is a chicken coop.
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Yes that was him.

Best not fed.
 
Siorac said:
I think some people imagine it like it's 1984 - or at least like 1930s USSR where black cars stop in front your house in the middle of the night to take you away and you're never heard from again.

In modern times, it's not how it works anymore. You can talk shit about Orbán in public, in the pub, anywhere really - it's fine. The elections are more or less real, in the sense that they are open to everyone and the results are accepted - I live in a district of Budapest where in last year's local/municipal elections, 16 out of 16 constituencies were won by the opposition and as such they currently have a 2/3 majority in the local council. And the opposition has a majority in the Capital's General Assembly, Budapest's central governing body. So it's not quite Lukashenko's Belarus just yet.

But. There are fewer and fewer media outlets that are openly critical of the government and more and more of them are nothing more but pure propaganda channels that regularly engage in delightful character assassinations. The most memorable occasion was when a 16-year-old high school student spoke up against the government at a rally and subsequently, the Fidesz-loyalist media started publishing articles about her grades in school, accused her of being on the verge of failing several subjects (completely fabricated), one of them even posted an upskirt photo of her... as I said, delightful.

Controversial laws are often submitted in the middle of the night and voted on by Parliament on the next day, with zero consultation with anyone beforehand. Apart from the increasing stranglehold on the media, Fidesz is taking over higher education, academia in general, and the cultural scene as well with changing funding systems, putting institutions under the control of freshly-created foundations packed with Fidesz loyalists. These have been allocated serious state funds that, in accordance with a fresh law - submitted on Tuesday night - are now basically locked in: a two-thirds majority will be required in the future to change their funding.

Ahead of the last parliamentary elections, the ÁSZ, the main regulatory body of Parliament's finances, somehow found violations in the finances of all parties bar one - no prizes for guessing which one. ÁSZ is led by a man I happen to know personally, a long-time, deeply loyal Fidesz-member. Yes, the few media outlets that still haven't been bought up by Fidesz-related businessmen are shouting about these things but it's futile against the brutal, relentless propaganda of the Fidesz media, especially the state TV that has long since given up any pretence of public service.

Personally, the worst thing is the feeling of helplessness. Considering the election system, the demographics of the country, the staggering concentration of financial and political power that Fidesz enjoys means that there is next to no chance of the "Orbán-regime" not dominating the next couple of decades of my life. I have to watch heartbreakingly awful and frankly, petty things happening, like completely banning gender transition (making it impossible to officially change your gender, to be precise), or the recent law that pretty much prevents single people and of course gay people from adopting children (the single people part is important because presenting themselves as single people attempting to adopt a child was the best way for LGBTQ people to successfully adopt); the constitution already defines marriage as the union of a man and a woman and a pending amendment defines "parents" as mother and father - and I have no hope it will be better any time soon. If it were up to Budapest alone, they could be defeated easily. But it's not - the capital is in a sea of orange, full of people with whom anti-LBTGQ and anti-migrant and xenophobic propaganda is very effective. And of course it's Fidesz who writes the election laws - and the recent successes of the opposition already saw them enacting certain changes to make it even harder - close to impossible, really - for any challenger.
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Wow what a heartfelt post. Are you able to emigrate/have the means to should you wish?
 
Maticmaker said:
Yes that is a very good question!
You can view it either way; the polls were miles off in prediction terms, was this some sort of pre-coup plot or just hopeless polling systems? Some (unknown scale at present time)ballot irregularities seemingly did occur, as they probably did in previous elections, but were they pre-planned, or just 'c**k-ups? It appears there was an extraordinary increase in mailed-in votes in some areas (even though that's countered by claims about pandemic effect etc.).Trump was flagging up 'his fear of fraud' well before voting day, was he just preparing the ground so to speak? Both sides have been calling for the counting of every vote, but only one side is also saying but don't count illegal votes! One side implying there is no illegal voting...virtually at all and in any case it would not effect the result; the other sides implying there is a lot of illegal voting, with enough of it to change the outcome of the contest.
Both sides have obviously managed to 'get out their vote' in exceptional numbers, as both candidates breaking records, is this indicative of some sort of coup, or just a reaction to better organization?

If there were two coup's in existence, only Biden's seems to be working as of now!
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What?

Who promoted this guy?
 
Belize, a poor 40 year old nation, is better at democracy than us...
“While there were winners and losers, the democracy that we have continued to enjoy throughout the life of this great young nation, is by far the greatest winner today,” Patrick Faber, leader of Barrow’s conservative United Democratic Party (UDP), said in a concession speech posted on Facebook.
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Raoul said:
If he ever wanted to pursue the Trump tv idea, he would probably do well making it subscription based. I’m sure at least 5-10 million cult members would pay $9.99/mo to watch the likes of Kim Guilfoyle, Kayleigh McNanny, Dobbs, Jeanine Porto, Dan Bongino, and others rail against Trump’s opponents all day.
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Guilfoyle would get her tits out
 
Kaos said:
I think thats the Trump gameplan at the moment - scorch earth the transition with encumbering baseless claims. I doubt he expects any of these lawsuits to bear fruit, they're merely intended to cast doubt over the electoral process and keep his base galvanised. What he plans to do beyond that I don't know.
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Some are speculating that he's trying to mess with the validation of results from the "contested" states and the electorate college. Some also say that he won't be able to stop that process. I would just assume that the courts at some point must be able to tell them to not return unless they actually can present anything more substantial than a pedo outside a landscaping business.
 
Raoul said:
If he ever wanted to pursue the Trump tv idea, he would probably do well making it subscription based. I’m sure at least 5-10 million cult members would pay $9.99/mo to watch the likes of Kim Guilfoyle, Kayleigh McNanny, Dobbs, Jeanine Porto, Dan Bongino, and others rail against Trump’s opponents all day.
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We're talking Alex Jones 2.0 here aren't we? Maybe a tad less mental, but still batshit.
 
Maticmaker said:
... The problem for Democrats is they are behaving like there are no illegal votes, none whatsoever, that there never has been any illegal votes, that illegal votes have never been counted in the history of elections, when clearly there are some votes whose legality can be questioned, both in the present election and past elections. The chances are what 'illegal votes' there are, are probably miniscule in number and would make no difference to the result as predicted, but the Democrats. as they have been doing for four years , when they make such remarks it allows Trump to knock them out of the park!

It is almost inevitable there will be a number of reasons why a small amount of votes will be declared 'illegal'; mistakes in posting, some mislaid, some technical (IT) errors (already admitted) and even be some 'dead voters' ballots may have been received, there are any number of reasons for 'illegal' votes turning up, but in total will probably make no difference. If the Biden camp is so sure there is none of this, or it would be a small or miniscule total of such votes, then why doesn't the President -elect say "OK Donald lets identify these multi-faceted 'illegal' votes, take them out of the reckoning/equation and then see who has come second to me"!
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That's bullshit. The Democrats are behaving as if the number of illegal votes (those that end up being mistakenly counted as legal) is very, very tiny (statistically insignificant) and doesn't even remotely affect the outcome of any electoral contest. And they are behaving this way because it's the truth, as every study has found, not least because the checks in the system make it very, very hard to vote illegally and very, very hard to fabricate the vote counting. The Republicans have spent years looking for evidence to the contrary and have found nothing.

Moreover, it's already the case that some votes are declared illegal or invalid and thus not counted - this is part of the normal process of scrutiny that occurs as a matter of course.

No. It's time for you to admit the truth: Trump is using allegations of widespread fraud simply as an excuse for refusing to admit defeat. What he is doing is unprecedented - blocking the transition of power to the President-Elect in defiance of what every President before him has done.

Hillary Clinton admitted defeat by Trump the day after the election - she didn't cry 'foul' and refuse to concede. Trump does the opposite. He's a liar, a fraud and is damaging the fabric of democracy.
 
Crazy how he managed to get them all to kiss his boot. Makes me wonder to what level of spinelessness I would sink to for money and power.



They remind me of Pycelle in Game of Thrones...



They all want to remain in the garden and will do or say anything to keep it that way.
 
What Tevor Noah said was right.
If Trump is so confident about winning, he won't be dodging the media ever since election day.
He knows that he lost, and has been dodging the media ever since.

All these about voter fraud is to collect more donations to offset the campaign spending, and for his own since he is not that rich and is facing lawsuits.
 
Siorac said:
I think some people imagine it like it's 1984 - or at least like 1930s USSR where black cars stop in front your house in the middle of the night to take you away and you're never heard from again.

In modern times, it's not how it works anymore. You can talk shit about Orbán in public, in the pub, anywhere really - it's fine. The elections are more or less real, in the sense that they are open to everyone and the results are accepted - I live in a district of Budapest where in last year's local/municipal elections, 16 out of 16 constituencies were won by the opposition and as such they currently have a 2/3 majority in the local council. And the opposition has a majority in the Capital's General Assembly, Budapest's central governing body. So it's not quite Lukashenko's Belarus just yet.

But. There are fewer and fewer media outlets that are openly critical of the government and more and more of them are nothing more but pure propaganda channels that regularly engage in delightful character assassinations. The most memorable occasion was when a 16-year-old high school student spoke up against the government at a rally and subsequently, the Fidesz-loyalist media started publishing articles about her grades in school, accused her of being on the verge of failing several subjects (completely fabricated), one of them even posted an upskirt photo of her... as I said, delightful.

Controversial laws are often submitted in the middle of the night and voted on by Parliament on the next day, with zero consultation with anyone beforehand. Apart from the increasing stranglehold on the media, Fidesz is taking over higher education, academia in general, and the cultural scene as well with changing funding systems, putting institutions under the control of freshly-created foundations packed with Fidesz loyalists. These have been allocated serious state funds that, in accordance with a fresh law - submitted on Tuesday night - are now basically locked in: a two-thirds majority will be required in the future to change their funding.

Ahead of the last parliamentary elections, the ÁSZ, the main regulatory body of Parliament's finances, somehow found violations in the finances of all parties bar one - no prizes for guessing which one. ÁSZ is led by a man I happen to know personally, a long-time, deeply loyal Fidesz-member. Yes, the few media outlets that still haven't been bought up by Fidesz-related businessmen are shouting about these things but it's futile against the brutal, relentless propaganda of the Fidesz media, especially the state TV that has long since given up any pretence of public service.

Personally, the worst thing is the feeling of helplessness. Considering the election system, the demographics of the country, the staggering concentration of financial and political power that Fidesz enjoys means that there is next to no chance of the "Orbán-regime" not dominating the next couple of decades of my life. I have to watch heartbreakingly awful and frankly, petty things happening, like completely banning gender transition (making it impossible to officially change your gender, to be precise), or the recent law that pretty much prevents single people and of course gay people from adopting children (the single people part is important because presenting themselves as single people attempting to adopt a child was the best way for LGBTQ people to successfully adopt); the constitution already defines marriage as the union of a man and a woman and a pending amendment defines "parents" as mother and father - and I have no hope it will be better any time soon. If it were up to Budapest alone, they could be defeated easily. But it's not - the capital is in a sea of orange, full of people with whom anti-LBTGQ and anti-migrant and xenophobic propaganda is very effective. And of course it's Fidesz who writes the election laws - and the recent successes of the opposition already saw them enacting certain changes to make it even harder - close to impossible, really - for any challenger.
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It's like I'm reading about Poland. No wonder Kaczynski and Orban get along so well.
 
Ramshock said:
Wow what a heartfelt post. Are you able to emigrate/have the means to should you wish?
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I probably could, yeah, if I really wanted to. But the thing is, personally I'm doing OK here. I'm a straight man with a good job and Fidesz's tax policies, while I disagree with most of them, actually benefit me. So I stay, I speak against them whenever possible, vote against them whenever possible. I don't blame those who do leave in search of a better life elsewhere, it's completely understandable. But I'll probably stay as long as we don't do anything as stupid as leaving the EU (no offence to the Brits here).

Also, if I'm honest, I don't fancy being an outsider in a different culture. I'd also miss stupid little things, like being able to speak to strangers in my own language. Besides, eventually, things will get better or the world will end because of climate change.
 
SirAF said:
Oh, he's serious? Help us all.
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I think so, honestly it's difficult to know at the moment.
GlastonSpur said:
That's bullshit. The Democrats are behaving as if the number of illegal votes (those that end up being mistakenly counted as legal) is very, very tiny (statistically insignificant) and doesn't even remotely affect the outcome of any electoral contest. And they are behaving this way because it's the truth, as every study has found, not least because the checks in the system make it very, very hard to vote illegally and very, very hard to fabricate the vote counting. The Republicans have spent years looking for evidence to the contrary and have found nothing.

Moreover, it's already the case that some votes are declared illegal or invalid and thus not counted - this is part of the normal process of scrutiny that occurs as a matter of course.

No. It's time for you to admit the truth: Trump is using allegations of widespread fraud simply as an excuse for refusing to admit defeat. What he is doing is unprecedented - blocking the transition of power to the President-Elect in defiance of what every President before him has done.

Hillary Clinton admitted defeat by Trump the day after the election - she didn't cry 'foul' and refuse to concede. Trump does the opposite. He's a liar, a fraud and is damaging the fabric of democracy.
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Trump spread voter fraud allegations after he lost the popular vote 2016 as well, even launching an investigation into it. They never did get the over 3 million people from last time!
 
GlastonSpur said:
That's bullshit. The Democrats are behaving as if the number of illegal votes (those that end up being mistakenly counted as legal) is very, very tiny (statistically insignificant) and doesn't even remotely affect the outcome of any electoral contest. And they are behaving this way because it's the truth, as every study has found, not least because the checks in the system make it very, very hard to vote illegally and very, very hard to fabricate the vote counting. The Republicans have spent years looking for evidence to the contrary and have found nothing.

Moreover, it's already the case that some votes are declared illegal or invalid and thus not counted - this is part of the normal process of scrutiny that occurs as a matter of course.

No. It's time for you to admit the truth: Trump is using allegations of widespread fraud simply as an excuse for refusing to admit defeat. What he is doing is unprecedented - blocking the transition of power to the President-Elect in defiance of what every President before him has done.

Hillary Clinton admitted defeat by Trump the day after the election - she didn't cry 'foul' and refuse to concede. Trump does the opposite. He's a liar, a fraud and is damaging the fabric of democracy.
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In '16 he also called the election a fraud, corrupt and rigged. Then he won and said it was the biggest and best election ever except for the popular vote. He called those 3.8 million votes illegal. Anyone that believes Donald Trump is a fecking idiot and if any voter fraud is found I am 100% sure they will be his supporters voting twice.
 
fishfingers15 said:
Somehow I relate coup with you as a poster. Were you the one who was going on and on about the impeachment procedures initiated against Trump tantamount to a coup? Or did you say impeachment by itself was a coup? The only coop you need is a chicken coop.
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"Yes fishy I cant tell a lie, it was me who mentioned 'coup' in respect of the impeachment process, specifically I called it a 'failed coup'.

This latest bout of 'coup' outbreak was because someone asked me if there was a 'coup' involved in the election and which contender Biden/Trump was behind it.

I tried to present, admittedly simplistic, but reasons why looking from the outside there are reasons to suppose either camp could be seeking a coup... unfortunately as happens on the caf, people only bother reading one post and postulate their response on what they think they have read into my response.

I suppose its what makes the caf such a success and enables me to wile away hours on my keyboard... thank you one and all ;)
 
Maticmaker said:
"Yes fishy I cant tell a lie, it was me who mentioned 'coup' in respect of the impeachment process, specifically I called it a 'failed coup'.

This latest bout of 'coup' outbreak was because someone asked me if there was a 'coup' involved in the election and which contender Biden/Trump was behind it.

I tried to present, admittedly simplistic, but reasons why looking from the outside there are reasons to suppose either camp could be seeking a coup... unfortunately as happens on the caf, people only bother reading one post and postulate their response on what they think they have read into my response.

I suppose its what makes the caf such a success and enables me to wile away hours on my keyboard... thank you one and all ;)
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Which is quite stupid: after all, had the Democrats succeeded in removing Trump, Mike Pence would have been president. That would be the shittiest coup ever.
 
Siorac said:
Which is quite stupid: after all, had the Democrats succeeded in removing Trump, Mike Pence would have been president. That would be the shittiest coup ever.
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Not if some of the GOP were secret members of the coup and wanted Mike Pence in the big chair and achieved it by using the Democrat inspired impeachment as a 'trojan horse' to aid their coup... oh no lets not start all this again, read the old posts!
 
Maticmaker said:
Not if some of the GOP were secret members of the coup and wanted Mike Pence in the big chair and achieved it by using the Democrat inspired impeachment as a 'trojan horse' to aid their coup... oh no lets not start all this again, read the old posts!
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That IS a quality conspiracy theory, definitely one of the better ones! Kudos.
 
Siorac said:
That IS a quality conspiracy theory, definitely one of the better ones! Kudos.
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Thank you. I find much more to 'conspire' about in the US political world, I suppose being brought up on things like the 'Grassy Knoll'/Deep Throat theories of the 60's and 70' s it comes naturally...everything's bigger/larger than life almost, in America, even the conspiracy theories.:)
 
GlastonSpur said:
That's bullshit. The Democrats are behaving as if the number of illegal votes (those that end up being mistakenly counted as legal) is very, very tiny (statistically insignificant) and doesn't even remotely affect the outcome of any electoral contest. And they are behaving this way because it's the truth, as every study has found, not least because the checks in the system make it very, very hard to vote illegally and very, very hard to fabricate the vote counting. The Republicans have spent years looking for evidence to the contrary and have found nothing.Moreover, it's already the case that some votes are declared illegal or invalid and thus not counted - this is part of the normal process of scrutiny that occurs as a matter of course. No. It's time for you to admit the truth: Trump is using allegations of widespread fraud simply as an excuse for refusing to admit defeat. What he is doing is unprecedented - blocking the transition of power to the President-Elect in defiance of what every President before him has done.
Hillary Clinton admitted defeat by Trump the day after the election - she didn't cry 'foul' and refuse to concede. Trump does the opposite. He's a liar, a fraud and is damaging the fabric of democracy.
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That's fine but only believed in your echo chamber. Unfortunately 72m+ Americans don't agree or don't care. Lincoln project is an example of moral or ethical indignation not working to change the minds of those on the right. And until Democrats find a way to overcome this, Trumps base will remain strong.

SAF probably had faults and unsavoury personal characteristics, but I was so enamoured and in awe of him, I was blinded or didn't care. Trump is to his cult what Ferguson was to Manchester United fans.
 
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sammsky1 said:
That's fine but only believed in your echo chamber. Unfortunately 72m+ Americans don't agree or don't care. Lincoln project is an example of moral or ethical indignation not working to change the minds of those on the right. And until Democrats find a way to overcome this, Trumps base will remain strong.
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Unfortunately I'm not sure there's a way to overcome this if one side has no problem lying to people by making them hear what they want.

I mean, we'd all like to hear the party or people we voted for won the elections even if the actual results say otherwise.

Who doesnt want to win, or to hear he is right, or find out his views are shared by the majority of people?
 
Jippy said:
Appreciate this was from yesterday, which was an age ago in this thread, but just interested where you're seeing strong evidence of a 'general movement left'? The narrow Dem victory alone would sure be very flaky evidence of this.
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I might get ripped apart for this, but this is more a comment that western nations over the past 100 years have had a slow move to the left, socially at least. LBGTQ, women's and racial rights, decrease in religious beliefs, the trend towards decriminalisation of drugs and so on. These, to me, are liberal movements not conservative movements.
 
sammsky1 said:
That's fine but only believed in your echo chamber. Unfortunately 72m+ Americans don't agree or don't care. Lincoln project is an example of moral or ethical indignation not working to change the minds of those on the right. And until Democrats find a way to overcome this, Trumps base will remain strong.

SAF probably had faults and unsavoury personal characteristics, but I was so enamoured and awed by him, I was blinded or didn't care. Trump is to his cult what Ferguson was to Manchester United fans.
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Is it untrue that Clinton conceded and called Trump to congratulate him?
 
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