2020 US Elections | Biden certified as President | Dems control Congress

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sammsky1 said:
Trump is to his cult what Ferguson was to Manchester United fans.
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Actually I had a mate (died last year unfortunately) who gave me hours of argument, pleasure and laughter in equal measure because even from day one. although a red through and through, he thought Ferguson was crap and in 20 odd years he still maintained Fergie didn't know what he was doing and had the most amazing run of luck. Why my mate held this view in the face of everything SAF won, before and after he came to United, was unbelievable and I never found out what was at the bottom of his ire...now I never will RIP!

But I agree with you, that when people agree (or disagree) with something on a fundamental level, it becomes like a religion and its difficult to convert. Hanging on to power by his fingertips Trump is laying the ground for his martyrdom and the Trumpian anthology that will surely follow.
 
Maticmaker said:
Actually I had a mate (died last year unfortunately) who gave me hours of argument, pleasure and laughter in equal measure because even from day one. although a red through and through, he thought Ferguson was crap and in 20 odd years he still maintained Fergie didn't know what he was doing and had the most amazing run of luck. Why my mate held this view in the face of everything SAF won, before and after he came to United, was unbelievable and I never found out what was at the bottom of his ire...now I never will RIP!

But I agree with you, that when people agree (or disagree) with something on a fundamental level, it becomes like a religion and its difficult to convert. Hanging on to power by his fingertips Trump is laying the ground for his martyrdom and the Trumpian anthology that will surely follow.
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Which is why I wrote that moral indignation is a worthless and useless endeavour when it comes to Trump.

After Brexit and Trump win in 2016, Democrats and leftists all claimed they would engage to understand 'the rust belt'/UK northern wall that had mobilised to support xenophobic nationalist agenda. But it was a facade and fundamentally failed because Democrats and Labour spent the next years sneering with moral indignation and insults towards Trump (Eg: CNN, WaPo, NYT etc), or trying to reverse Brexit (Corbyn etc). All this did was make the right dig in and become braver is their expressions, which made their movement even bigger (72million, Boris landslide) and has now successfully created a truly parallel and alternative belief system.

Given that republicans tend to be more Christian religious than democrats, I'm fascinated at how the 72million lionise Trump as a demi God despite his so many unChristian crimes and behaviours. And until the left can live in those shoes and truly understand this dynamic, they wont ever gain sympathy for this enormous movement, let alone win any of these votes.

America certainly doesn't need to spend 4 more years of sneering at these 'deplorables' and has to find a way to share the tent with some of them. I really hope Biden/Harris have the empathy, energy and wherewithal to start this process. History show us that country's have broken into smaller country's for much lesser reasons.

PS: Your mate sounds like a loon, but also a wonderful loon too! May he rest in peace, Amin.
 
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I wonder if in the long term there might be a consequences for the republicans by trying to discredit this election and voting in general. When Biden gets sworn in on the 20th of January there will still be a narrative that the election was stolen. How many voters will then believe that going forward their votes don't matter and how many of those will be republican? If you honestly believed that the Democrats can just steal an election, why would you vote ever again?
 
slyadams said:
I might get ripped apart for this, but this is more a comment that western nations over the past 100 years have had a slow move to the left, socially at least. LBGTQ, women's and racial rights, decrease in religious beliefs, the trend towards decriminalisation of drugs and so on. These, to me, are liberal movements not conservative movements.
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I know what you mean, but I guess LGBT, women's and racial rights ceased to be the sole preserve of the left years ago and religious beliefs don't have to be right wing.

Maybe it's a shorter-term cycle, hopefully, but just feels like everything has drifted decidedly right, even the traditional opposition to it.
 
slyadams said:
I might get ripped apart for this, but this is more a comment that western nations over the past 100 years have had a slow move to the left, socially at least. LBGTQ, women's and racial rights, decrease in religious beliefs, the trend towards decriminalisation of drugs and so on. These, to me, are liberal movements not conservative movements.
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Jippy said:
I know what you mean, but I guess LGBT, women's and racial rights ceased to be the sole preserve of the left years ago and religious beliefs don't have to be right wing.

Maybe it's a shorter-term cycle, hopefully, but just feels like everything has drifted decidedly right, even the traditional opposition to it.
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The obvious reason is because the lower segment of western capitalist society is fundamentally better off now than it was 50 or 100 years ago. Once upon a time, poorer people in these regions didn't have access to free healthcare, schools, public services, bank loans or mortgages and their western poverty was much closer to poverty felt worldwide.

In my opinion, socialism as it is commonly understood is only truly relevant in developing economies. Which is why when you fast forward to 2020, the Corbyn/Saunders type ideologies dont have mass relevance or traction because they feel like they are speaking to western world from yesteryear. I would argue that UK populace and economy doesn't really offer a majority position for a truly socialist party, hence the Labour debate vs centrism and Blair/Starmer. USA even more so.

Once Leftists have succeeded in delivering the basic functional needs, they can expand their agenda to the softer or more refined aspects of 21st century human rights like LGBT, women's and racial rights.
 
To be fair I reacted exactly like him when I lost a game of Mario Kart in the dying seconds. I mean, I was six years old but still.
 
sammsky1 said:
America certainly doesn't need to spend 4 more years of sneering at these 'deplorables' and has to find a way to share the tent with some of them. I really hope Biden/Harris have the empathy, energy and wherewithal to start this process. History show us that country's have broken into smaller country's for much lesser reasons.

PS: Your mate sounds like a loon, but also a wonderful loon too! May he resting peace, Amin.
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Yes I agree, its gone beyond what might be called political ideology, it into fundamental belief systems, people have coalesce around Trump not so much because who he is, after all he is a billionaire and as much removed from the ordinary 'Joe' as anyone could be, but what they think he represents, their hurts, their wants, their aspirations, and (so they believe) he brooks no nonsense ; which is why they will probably have to send armed officers to march him out of the Whitehouse, hence his martyrdom is complete.
To a similar extent the same thing happened with Brexit, remainers' were on about economics, leavers about freedom/control, talking to the back of one another's heads! Boris tapped into that but it now looks as if may change tack, after all we still do as we are told by the Americans and now it will be a different American (part Irish) doing the telling!

PPS my mate was a loon, but he was my mate, even when three-sheets to the wind, he would get us both into arguments, with his views. I got slung out of so many 'red' pubs because of him, but we remained pals till the end!
 
sammsky1 said:
That's fine but only believed in your echo chamber. Unfortunately 72m+ Americans don't agree or don't care. Lincoln project is an example of moral or ethical indignation not working to change the minds of those on the right. And until Democrats find a way to overcome this, Trumps base will remain strong.

SAF probably had faults and unsavoury personal characteristics, but I was so enamoured and in awe of him, I was blinded or didn't care. Trump is to his cult what Ferguson was to Manchester United fans.
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Are we sure it didn't work at all though? I mean, it seems that a fairly significant part of the voters split their ballots and elected GOP senators without voting for Trump.
 
Jippy said:
I know what you mean, but I guess LGBT, women's and racial rights ceased to be the sole preserve of the left years ago and religious beliefs don't have to be right wing.

Maybe it's a shorter-term cycle, hopefully, but just feels like everything has drifted decidedly right, even the traditional opposition to it.
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Let me ask you this. If it was purely up to the GOP would we have made this much progress?
 
Maticmaker said:
Yes I agree, its gone beyond what might be called political ideology, it into fundamental belief systems, people have coalesce around Trump not so much because who he is, after all he is a billionaire and as much removed from the ordinary 'Joe' as anyone could be, but what they think he represents, their hurts, their wants, their aspirations, and (so they believe) he brooks no nonsense ; which is why they will probably have to send armed officers to march him out of the Whitehouse, hence his martyrdom is complete.
To a similar extent the same thing happened with Brexit, remainers' were on about economics, leavers about freedom/control, talking to the back of one another's heads! Boris tapped into that but it now looks as if may change tack, after all we still do as we are told by the Americans and now it will be a different American (part Irish) doing the telling!

PPS my mate was a loon, but he was my mate, even when three-sheets to the wind, he would get us both into arguments, with his views. I got slung out of so many 'red' pubs because of him, but we remained pals till the end!
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Have you seen the various movies or read books about Pablo Escobar?

If Trump is visually marched 'off the premises', his supporters will feel much like Escobar's supporters felt when he was expelled from Columbia's parliament, and Escobar then proceeded to make even more political capital from this humiliation with his cult of followers.
 
sammsky1 said:
Have you seen the various movies or read books about Pablo Escobar?

If Trump is visually marched 'off the premises', his supporters will feel much like Escobar's supporters felt when he was expelled from Columbia's parliament, and Escobar then proceeded to make even more political capital from this humiliation with his cult of followers.
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Its not just political capital if the 'Trumpian Odyssey' continues, it will develop and spread as his anthology takes hold. Trump could end up being the most written and talked about American President who ever lost an election yet spawned a new movement! The mind boggles!
 
Maticmaker said:
Its not just political capital if the 'Trumpian Odyssey' continues, it will develop and spread as his anthology takes hold. Trump could end up being the most written and talked about American President who ever lost an election yet spawned a new movement! The mind boggles!
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Great point.

Entire industries can be built off the back of it. An alternative movie industry, media industry, clothing and fashion industry etc etc

Yep. I can see it too. :nervous::nervous:
 
sammsky1 said:
Great point.

Entire industries can be built off the back of it. An alternative movie industry, media industry, clothing and fashion industry etc etc

Yep. I can see it too. :nervous::nervous:
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Id suggest we build him that Presidential Library quickly so it can become some sort of Mecca for his fans - and of course they won't be required to social distance or use PPE. Sanitizing anything won't be needed either. Self monitoring...meh we want as many people to come see the monument to the greatest president that ever was or will be.
 
sammsky1 said:
Entire industries can be built off the back of it. An alternative movie industry, media industry, clothing and fashion industry etc etc

Yep. I can see it too. :nervous::nervous:
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Very funny, yes Donald is the answer to the Covid slump. Out of office, but single-handedly, he turns the economic tide with his "We was Robbed" branding franchise throughout the known world.!!:eek::confused:
 
sammsky1 said:
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When can we expect to see proof of this?
oh yeah, it's trump, never mind.

Problem is that a lot of people will actually believe it and imo it's only a matter of time before one or more of them goes off with their guns.
Reasonable people can ignore trump, but his finger won't be on the trigger, nor will he be in the crosshairs.
So, do we wait till that happens or will someone with some balls step up and stop him?
Like with most things some innocents will have to die 1st, sadly. I hope I'm not being alarmist but with their level of crazy I don't think it's out of line.
 
sammsky1 said:
Which is why I wrote that moral indignation is a worthless and useless endeavour when it comes to Trump.

After Brexit and Trump win in 2016, Democrats and leftists all claimed they would engage to understand 'the rust belt'/UK northern wall that had mobilised to support xenophobic nationalist agenda. But it was a facade and fundamentally failed because Democrats and Labour spent the next years sneering with moral indignation and insults towards Trump (Eg: CNN, WaPo, NYT etc), or trying to reverse Brexit (Corbyn etc). All this did was make the right dig in and become braver is their expressions, which made their movement even bigger (72million, Boris landslide) and has now successfully created a truly parallel and alternative belief system.

Given that republicans tend to be more Christian religious than democrats, I'm fascinated at how the 72million lionise Trump as a demi God despite his so many unChristian crimes and behaviours. And until the left can live in those shoes and truly understand this dynamic, they wont ever gain sympathy for this enormous movement, let alone win any of these votes.

America certainly doesn't need to spend 4 more years of sneering at these 'deplorables' and has to find a way to share the tent with some of them. I really hope Biden/Harris have the empathy, energy and wherewithal to start this process. History show us that country's have broken into smaller country's for much lesser reasons.

PS: Your mate sounds like a loon, but also a wonderful loon too! May he rest in peace, Amin.
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If anythings proven to be a useless endeavour it's engagement with these people to convince and change their minds. You speak of moral indignation making them dig in but they've never had more of a voice and it's this leniency and engagement that's emboldened their views.

I know it's become fashionable lately to try and play the rational voice to the irrational but there's little evidence it works and much to say it doesn't. All the left/centre left need to do is focus on the strength of their own arguments and largely get back to crazy views not being worth public discourse.
 
utdalltheway said:
When can we expect to see proof of this?
oh yeah, it's trump, never mind.

Problem is that a lot of people will actually believe it and imo it's only a matter of time before one or more of them goes off with their guns.
Reasonable people can ignore trump, but his finger won't be on the trigger, nor will he be in the crosshairs.
So, do we wait till that happens or will someone with some balls step up and stop him?
Like with most things some innocents will have to die 1st, sadly. I hope I'm not being alarmist but with their level of crazy I don't think it's out of line.
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What do you mean proof. It's in all caps, so it's obviously true.
 
sammsky1 said:
Great point.

Entire industries can be built off the back of it. An alternative movie industry, media industry, clothing and fashion industry etc etc

Yep. I can see it too. :nervous::nervous:
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Look at the anti Clinton brigade. A lot of money made through books/merch and a horrible citizens united ruling. I'm not an advocate for violence but I would love a crack at Dinesh DeSouza.
 
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