2016 US Presidential Elections | Trump Wins

Status
Not open for further replies.
That's correct. We don't care about European or Asian standards here. This entire debate is strictly endogeneous to American politics. The lame stream media with their gotcha questions aren't promoting any candidate, they are asking tough questions to both sides. In Bernie's case, its important that his policies receive at least as much scrutiny (if not more) than Hillary's, since they would be significantly more transformative than your average status quo candidate.

When I speak of framed standards I mean a left-right narrative that's put forth by the media and the like for the purposes of marginalising certain voices. I don't think it's a far-fetched claim to say that the political spectrum in the US population is far wider than what gets play in the media. I'm not saying the US should be adhering to the rest of the world's standards.

Btw, Raoul, I would like it if you neverminded references to "your beloved candidate", and other things to imply that I operate from an unashamed position of bias. I try my hardest to get at the subject matter and not try to ascribe intent that I can't possibly know, and I feel like that courtesy is increasingly not being returned. I'm no mod, so clearly I'm not shaking a ban stick, just a polite request.
 
When I speak of framed standards I mean a left-right narrative that's put forth by the media and the like for the purposes of marginalising certain voices. I don't think it's a far-fetched claim to say that the political spectrum in the US population is far wider than what gets play in the media. I'm not saying the US should be adhering to the rest of the world's standards.

Btw, Raoul, I would like it if you neverminded references to "your beloved candidate", and other things to imply that I operate from an unashamed position of bias. I try my hardest to get at the subject matter and not try to ascribe intent that I can't possibly know, and I feel like that courtesy is increasingly not being returned. I'm no mod, so clearly I'm not shaking a ban stick, just a polite request.


Raoul has been a bit mean to me in the past as well, not sure why.
 
When I speak of framed standards I mean a left-right narrative that's put forth by the media and the like for the purposes of marginalising certain voices. I don't think it's a far-fetched claim to say that the political spectrum in the US population is far wider than what gets play in the media. I'm not saying the US should be adhering to the rest of the world's standards.

Btw, Raoul, I would like it if you neverminded references to "your beloved candidate", and other things to imply that I operate from an unashamed position of bias. I try my hardest to get at the subject matter and not try to ascribe intent that I can't possibly know, and I feel like that courtesy is increasingly not being returned. I'm no mod, so clearly I'm not shaking a ban stick, just a polite request.

It was a tongue and cheek way of saying that the narrative of WaPo are anti-Bernie is just a byproduct of the 'Feel the Bern' reality distortion field. The specifics of Bernie's policies need to be scrutinized with a degree of suspicion since he is advocating a fundamental and comprehensive change of domestic and foreign policy, and the likes of the Washington Post and other papers are just doing their job. I never take it seriously when a particular outlet comes out with a piece that doesn't cast a favorable light on my candidate of choice.
 
I was listening to an excellent Ezra Klein podcast when he interviewed Neera Tanden (Center of American Progress) who has worked for Hillary for a number of years. She was at a loss to effectively articulate why there's a massive gap in the perception of Hillary Clinton (apparently people close to her think of her as warm, articulate and intelligent) and many other Americans think of her as a corporate shill, vacuous and not trust worthy.

Does she get an unfair ride on here?
 
It was a tongue and cheek way of saying that the narrative of WaPo are anti-Bernie is just a byproduct of the 'Feel the Bern' reality distortion field. The specifics of Bernie's policies need to be scrutinized with a degree of suspicion since he is advocating a fundamental and comprehensive change of domestic and foreign policy, and the likes of the Washington Post and other papers are just doing their job. I never take it seriously when a particular outlet comes out with a piece that doesn't cast a favorable light on my candidate of choice.

are you also examining the specifics of Hillary's policies with at least an equal degree of suspicion since her polices do feck all for ordinary people and continues transferring wealth to the top?
 
I was listening to an excellent Ezra Klein podcast when he interviewed Neera Tanden (Center of American Progress) who has worked for Hillary for a number of years. She was at a loss to effectively articulate why there's a massive gap in the perception of Hillary Clinton (apparently people close to her think of her as warm, articulate and intelligent) and many other Americans think of her as a corporate shill, vacuous and not trust worthy.

Does she get an unfair ride on here?

No. because she has been on every side of every issue.

a slimy political animal.
 
No. because she has been on every side of every issue.

a slimy political animal.

For instance, she effectively challenged Bernie Sanders to name one time when she has been led by her money from interest groups and Bernie came up blank.

I've heard this 'snake', 'political animal' but effectively, I'm still looking for a massive sell out by Hillary. I mean, I have still not yet over your 'Trump could pivot to Center and could be a better choice'. To be fair, I'll never get over it.
 
are you also examining the specifics of Hillary's policies with at least an equal degree of suspicion since her polices do feck all for ordinary people and continues transferring wealth to the top?

Yes of course. There's a massive difference between her and Sanders in that her policies can be tangibly evaluated based on her record as Senator, SecState, and First Lady - they are ostensibly not too different than Obama's policies, which is not surprising, since she worked for him. Bernie, despite being a Senator is advocating policies that are brand new and radically different than the currently accepted status quo, which means they should be approached with a notch of extra scrutiny compared to Hillary's.
 
Yes of course. There's a massive difference between her and Sanders in that her policies can be tangibly evaluated based on her record as Senator, SecState, and First Lady - they are ostensibly not too different than Obama's policies, which is not surprising, since she worked for him. Bernie, despite being a Senator is advocating policies that are brand new and radically different than the currently accepted status quo, which means they should be approached with a notch of extra scrutiny compared to Hillary's.

Basically a better answer than 'It's been done in Sweden, we should be able to do it too'
 
For instance, she effectively challenged Bernie Sanders to name one time when she has been led by her money from interest groups and Bernie came up blank.

I've heard this 'snake', 'political animal' but effectively, I'm still looking for a massive sell out by Hillary. I mean, I have still not yet over your 'Trump could pivot to Center and could be a better choice'. To be fair, I'll never get over it.

Yes..yes...common sense dictates that banks and energy corporations are throwing money at her cause they like MILFs.

As for my Trump comments, have you listen beyond his reference to walls and Muslims?
From what I have heard, there is no concrete proof he will 'pivot to the center'. But I am willing to wait to see the GE debates before forming a final conclusion.
 
For instance, she effectively challenged Bernie Sanders to name one time when she has been led by her money from interest groups and Bernie came up blank.

I've heard this 'snake', 'political animal' but effectively, I'm still looking for a massive sell out by Hillary. I mean, I have still not yet over your 'Trump could pivot to Center and could be a better choice'. To be fair, I'll never get over it.

For your first point: https://theintercept.com/2016/04/14...r-on-their-own-core-citizens-united-argument/

For your second: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/...e-For-Why-Hillary-Clinton-is-the-Wrong-Choice
 
Yes of course. There's a massive difference between her and Sanders in that her policies can be tangibly evaluated based on her record as Senator, SecState, and First Lady - they are ostensibly not too different than Obama's policies, which is not surprising, since she worked for him. Bernie, despite being a Senator is advocating policies that are brand new and radically different than the currently accepted status quo, which means they should be approached with a notch of extra scrutiny compared to Hillary's.

Please not you too. Obama has done it so it has to be good. Obama made a start, hopefully not to stand still. I'm referring to Health care.
btw she threw Obama under the bus when it suited her.

There is nothing brand new in Economics to what Bernie is suggesting. It has worked in Europe in countries like Germany, France, England....and yes Sweden.
The 'small country' argument goes against normal thoughts on this. The larger the country, the less volatile any policy. The effect of Medicare For All for example will be to reduce the entire nations's medical expenses (que we cannot get this past a Republican Congress).

And 'free Education' is not an expense. It is an investment. the very best. btw in accounting a Debit entry can be classified as both expense and an asset.

Do you believe Education is an expense or do you think it is an asset for the nation?
 
Please not you too. Obama has done it so it has to be good. Obama made a start, hopefully not to stand still. I'm referring to Health care.
btw she threw Obama under the bus when it suited her.

There is nothing brand new in Economics to what Bernie is suggesting. It has worked in Europe in countries like Germany, France, England....and yes Sweden.
The 'small country' argument goes against normal thoughts on this. The larger the country, the less volatile any policy. The effect of Medicare For All for example will be to reduce the entire nations's medical expenses (que we cannot get this past a Republican Congress).

And 'free Education' is not an expense. It is an investment. the very best. btw in accounting a Debit entry can be classified as both expense and an asset.

Do you believe Education is an expense or do you think it is an asset for the nation?

You obviously didn't get my previous post. Hillary's policies are representative of the current status quo. They are a known commodity and as such, have been scrutinized for years inclusive in her 08 run and her work for Obama. Sanders policies are about as far from the status quo as any competitive candidate has proposed in generations, therefore they deserve some extra scrutiny. As in, what is the plausibility of reconfiguring the fundamental model of how the the US does business. That's a macro-level change that has to be challenged aggressively before it is ever implemented.

As for Bernie's economics, the fact that random small countries elsewhere have tried something that Bernie supports doesn't mean it will automatically work in the US. I actually think Hillary's view on Education is better than his, since she has proposed that people who can pay for their Education, should do so, which makes a lot more sense than everything getting blanket free education.
 
Yes..yes...common sense dictates that banks and energy corporations are throwing money at her cause they like MILFs.

As for my Trump comments, have you listen beyond his reference to walls and Muslims?
From what I have heard, there is no concrete proof he will 'pivot to the center'. But I am willing to wait to see the GE debates before forming a final conclusion.

Pretty needless. Are you accusing Obama of being a Wall street Stooge? Or call him a snake, BBC etc?
 
You obviously didn't get my previous post. Hillary's policies are representative of the current status quo. They are a known commodity and as such, have been scrutinized for years inclusive in her 08 run and her work for Obama. Sanders policies are about as far from the status quo as any competitive candidate has proposed in generations, therefore they deserve some extra scrutiny. As in, what is the plausibility of reconfiguring the fundamental model of how the the US does business. That's a macro-level change that has to be challenged aggressively before it is ever implemented.

As for Bernie's economics, the fact that random small countries elsewhere have tried something that Bernie supports doesn't mean it will automatically work in the US. I actually think Hillary's view on Education is better than his, since she has proposed that people who can pay for their Education, should do so, which makes a lot more sense than everything getting blanket free education.

Raoul. The status quo is not acceptable. That is what this 'anger' is about...from sides.The policies may have been scrutinized...and the determination by facts is it works for those that 'have' and does not for those that 'do not have'. The configuration or more precisely reconfiguration will actually create more jobs, certainly in health care while getting rid of the parasites that help kill people.

Education will help all those people who have been left unemployed by those wonderful Trade deals Hillary and her ilk support.

Hillary's view on Education is a drop in the ocean. Basically her entire platform offers nothing concrete for the working man or woman.

I stand by what I say about saying his polices will work. He is only fighting the will of corrupt people in congress.
 
Raoul. The status quo is not acceptable. That is what this 'anger' is about...from sides.The policies may have been scrutinized...and the determination by facts is it works for those that 'have' and does not for those that 'do not have'. The configuration or more precisely reconfiguration will actually create more jobs, certainly in health care while getting rid of the parasites that help kill people.

Education will help all those people who have been left unemployed by those wonderful Trade deals Hillary and her ilk support.

Hillary's view on Education is a drop in the ocean. Basically her entire platform offers nothing concrete for the working man or woman.

I stand by what I say about saying his polices will work. He is only fighting the will of corrupt people in congress.

You're giving me the usual, hysterical political pitch. I'm more interested in a reality based middle ground between what both Dem candidates are proposing. We already know that Sanders policies won't happen because of the gridlocked nature of US politics.
 
You're giving me the usual, hysterical political pitch. I'm more interested in a reality based middle ground between what both Dem candidates are proposing. We already know that Sanders policies won't happen because of the gridlocked nature of US politics.

think the hysteria is on the Hillary side tbh.

as for gridlock....you will have it with Hillary too except when she decides to get into another war.
 
So you believe when huge corporations throw money at a candidate, its for nothing??

No, but they can't straight up buy influence from said candidate. The money is only there to curry favors or acts as a safety net in case everything go tits up.

Saying that politicians are at the beck and call of moneyed interest is missing the nuance in their relationship. It's the other way around. People without access to politicians tend to project whatever they wish on them.

Is it fair, is it right? No, it isn't. But it's how the world works, and unless you are prepared to bring out the pitchfork, go to the trenches and hang every single one of those politicians and businesspeople, better accept that you'll have to play with the current system instead of hiding behind fantasy like 'political revolution'.

This is an excerpt from Obama's book, The Audacity of Hope, on money in politics.

I can’t assume that the money chase didn’t alter me in some ways. …

Increasingly I found myself spending time with people of means — law firm partners and investment bankers, hedge fund managers and venture capitalists. As a rule, they were smart, interesting people, knowledgeable about public policy, liberal in their politics, expecting nothing more than a hearing of their opinions in exchange for their checks. But they reflected, almost uniformly, the perspectives of their class: the top 1 percent or so of the income scale that can afford to write a $2,000 check to a political candidate. They believed in the free market and an educational meritocracy; they found it hard to imagine that there might be any social ill that could not be cured by a high SAT score. They had no patience with protectionism, found unions troublesome, and were not particularly sympathetic to those whose lives were upended by the movements of global capital. Most were adamantly prochoice and antigun and were vaguely suspicious of deep religious sentiment.

And although my own worldview and theirs corresponded in many ways — I had gone to the same schools, after all, had read the same books, and worried about my kids in many of the same ways — I found myself avoiding certain topics during conversations with them, papering over possible differences, anticipating their expectations. On core issues I was candid; I had no problem telling well-heeled supporters that the tax cuts they’d received from George Bush should be reversed. Whenever I could, I would try to share with them some of the perspectives I was hearing from other portions of the electorate: the legitimate role of faith in politics, say, or the deep cultural meaning of guns in rural parts of the state.

Still, I know that as a consequence of my fund-raising I became more like the wealthy donors I met, in the very particular sense that I spent more and more of my time above the fray, outside the world of immediate hunger, disappointment, fear, irrationality, and frequent hardship of the other 99 percent of the population — that is, the people that I’d entered public life to serve. And in one fashion or another, I suspect this is true for every senator: The longer you are a senator, the narrower the scope of your interactions. You may fight it, with town hall meetings and listening tours and stops by the old neighborhood. But your schedule dictates that you move in a different orbit from most of the people you represent.

And perhaps as the next race approaches, a voice within tells you that you don’t want to have to go through all the misery of raising all that money in small increments all over again. You realize that you no longer have the cachet you did as the upstart, the fresh face; you haven’t changed Washington, and you’ve made a lot of people unhappy with difficult votes. The path of least resistance — of fund-raisers organized by the special interests, the corporate PACs, and the top lobbying shops — starts to look awfully tempting, and if the opinions of these insiders don’t quite jibe with those you once held, you learn to rationalize the changes as a matter of realism, of compromise, of learning the ropes. The problems of ordinary people, the voices of the Rust Belt town or the dwindling heartland, become a distant echo rather than a palpable reality, abstractions to be managed rather than battles to be fought.
 
think the hysteria is on the Hillary side tbh.

as for gridlock....you will have it with Hillary too except when she decides to get into another war.

It will be there for her as well, but not nearly as intensely as it would for Sanders since she isn't promoting a fundamental inversion of the US economic and political system.
 
No, but they can't straight up buy influence from said candidate. The money is only there to curry favors or acts as a safety net in case everything go tits up.

Saying that politicians are at the beck and call of moneyed interest is missing the nuance in their relationship. It's the other way around. People without access to politicians tend to project whatever they wish on them.

Is it fair, is it right? No, it isn't. But it's how the world works, and unless you are prepared to bring out the pitchfork, go to the trenches and hang every single one of those politicians and businesspeople, better accept that you'll have to play with the current system instead of hiding behind fantasy like 'political revolution'.

This is an excerpt from Obama's book, The Audacity of Hope, on money in politics.

This is not directed at you personally. But it is such thinking that has brought us to where we are.

fecked as a country. The question we have to answer as a nation is "how are we doing as a Country". Not "How is our economy doing".

The Vision has to be to bring All up...not just to keep those who are doing well..keep doing so. And it is Not just from a Christian perspectic..(err not the Cruz/Rybio model btw). It is simply from an economic perspective. When more people prosper, the nation becomes stronger. Obama is making an observation of what is..not what he wishes things to be.
 
Bernie's so damn lovable. Can't think of a single American or British politician like him. Definitely none who have come this close to leading their countries.

 
ahh the Obama argument...he cut a deal with Big Pharma to get ACA passed. goody for him. Now lets move to the next step.

So you believe when huge corporations throw money at a candidate, its for nothing??

:lol:

I don't think Obama is a corporate stooge and this has nothing to do with ACA. Obama has corporate donors as much as Hillary Clinton does and he has engaged in fundraising. It's a bit hypocritical of you to accuse special interest donors donating money to Hillary for being a MILF or whatever, but I never heard you complain about Obama.

Listen, I was not arguing, I asked for inputs. Berbatrick provided a couple of links for me to read up on. Hopefully it'll be an eye opener and not irrelevant posts like MILFing..
 
:lol:

I don't think Obama is a corporate stooge and this has nothing to do with ACA. Obama has corporate donors as much as Hillary Clinton does and he has engaged in fundraising. It's a bit hypocritical of you to accuse special interest donors donating money to Hillary for being a MILF or whatever, but I never heard you complain about Obama.

Listen, I was not arguing, I asked for inputs. Berbatrick provided a couple of links for me to read up on. Hopefully it'll be an eye opener and not irrelevant posts like MILFing..

fair enough. :)

you still have not answered my question. Do you think corporations do not expect something in return?
 
fair enough. :)

you still have not answered my question. Do you think corporations do not expect something in return?

Are you talking about Hillary ? She was a private citizen during her speeches. Elected officials aren't allowed to do them.
 
Are you talking about Hillary ? She was a private citizen during her speeches. Elected officials aren't allowed to do them.

Actually I was referring to her Super Pacs. What do you think they expect in return.?

As for her speeches. She is running for President of the United States of America. Transparency is an absolute must.
Why should the American public not be entitled to know what she said for all that money to these banks who have been directly responsible for the last recession and have paid billions in fines? This goes to the core of the question. Is she 'qualified' to be President? My question is to ask ,does this disqualify her? Some think it does.
 
Speech transcripts = the new long form birth certificate.

poor reply.

What she said at those meetings is highly relevant to what she thinks. What she sees the roles of these banks in our economy and through her in our government.

To say she will only release them if the Republicans do so is to concede she is as corrupt as them.
 
poor reply.

What she said at those meetings is highly relevant to what she thinks. What she sees the roles of these banks in our economy and through her in our government.

To say she will only release them if the Republicans do so is to concede she is as corrupt as them.

No it's not.

You are not going to insult your host when they are wining and dining you. It's just a fluff piece to have their employees feel good about themselves.

Releasing them will only provide out of context quote to further smear her character. It's a non-issue played up by the Sanders campaign. If GS decides to buy Hillary Clinton, it won't be for only $675,000.

It's like perspectives have flown out of the window this cycle.

Edit: GS speaker list

http://www.goldmansachs.com/our-thinking/talks-at-gs/speaker-list.html?session=all

I'm sure they are trying to buy Big Basketball, Big Lyricist and Big Photographer.
 
poor reply.

What she said at those meetings is highly relevant to what she thinks. What she sees the roles of these banks in our economy and through her in our government.

To say she will only release them if the Republicans do so is to concede she is as corrupt as them.

But would you be feigning outrage if it was Bernie in the lead ?
 
No it's not.

You are not going to insult your host when they are wining and dining you. It's just a fluff piece to have their employees feel good about themselves.

Releasing them will only provide out of context quote to further smear her character. It's a non-issue played up by the Sanders campaign. If GS decides to buy Hillary Clinton, it won't be for only $675,000.

It's like perspectives have flown out of the window this cycle.

Edit: GS speaker list

http://www.goldmansachs.com/our-thinking/talks-at-gs/speaker-list.html?session=all

I'm sure they are trying to buy Big Basketball, Big Lyricist and Big Photographer.
Ross Kemp ffs.
 
No it's not.

You are not going to insult your host when they are wining and dining you. It's just a fluff piece to have their employees feel good about themselves.

Releasing them will only provide out of context quote to further smear her character. It's a non-issue played up by the Sanders campaign. If GS decides to buy Hillary Clinton, it won't be for only $675,000.

It's like perspectives have flown out of the window this cycle.

Edit: GS speaker list

http://www.goldmansachs.com/our-thinking/talks-at-gs/speaker-list.html?session=all

I'm sure they are trying to buy Big Basketball, Big Lyricist and Big Photographer.

Yao Ming...I knew Goldman would buy him for an "in" into the Chinese Basketball market.
 
No it's not.

You are not going to insult your host when they are wining and dining you. It's just a fluff piece to have their employees feel good about themselves.

Releasing them will only provide out of context quote to further smear her character. It's a non-issue played up by the Sanders campaign. If GS decides to buy Hillary Clinton, it won't be for only $675,000.

It's like perspectives have flown out of the window this cycle.

Edit: GS speaker list

http://www.goldmansachs.com/our-thinking/talks-at-gs/speaker-list.html?session=all

I'm sure they are trying to buy Big Basketball, Big Lyricist and Big Photographer.

but she is willing to insult the intelligence of the voter.

how do you know this is a fluff piece? If it was so why bring up the Republicans to compare?

Who is more important? The voter she says she wants to serve or GS?
 
Raoul. I do admire Bernie but that is where it stops. I simply think he is the one has the best interests of the voters at heart. There is no outrage. Its accountability.

Personally I think she should release them as well, but I doubt there's anything bad in them. More like embarrassing things that were said that could be used against her in campaign ads by Sanders or Trump. Obviously not releasing them makes her look suspicious, but at some point I think we need to move on and resume talking about policy issues.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.