“Attack wins you games, defence wins you titles”

[allen7]

Well City had a better defense, midfield and a manager compared to Real yet lost the game in a space of few mins, can someone explain this “defense wins you titles” ?

 

[MUW4Eva]

Well City had a better defense, midfield and a manager compared to Real yet lost the game in a space of few mins, can someone explain this “defense wins you titles” ?

Well City didn't have the better defence, they conceded more goals than Real Madrid did...

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

It's actually arguably the opposite these days and has been for a while.

Hardly anyone wins the league without scoring close to 90 goals these days. We can barely manage 70. That's more the reason why we're not competing for the league than any defensive issue (although we've been particularly bad this year at both ends). Draws are killer in leagues. It's better to win a game and lose a game than 2 draws.

Defence can win you individual games in the Champions League for example, shutting a team out in 90 minutes can be the difference of winning a cup or not. But if you can't score regularly, you're unlikely to win any major trophy.

 

[Greck]

I'm sure has been said but this saying isn't intended to exclude the other. It's for situations like Liverpool's before Van Dijk and others. Defense is a nice winning foundation. Managers like Jose are even able to be serial winners by mastering it.

 

[sullydnl]

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

I've always been of the opinion that if you can maintain a solid unit throughout and not concede many chances which we do, then you'll always have a chance of scoring, whether it be through open play or a set piece.

Currently, and something that has been a problem for a while, we are way too easy to play against. As a result, we concede too many goals.

Yes, attacking players are important, but ours don't even look like scoring, so going forward, I think ten Hag needs to think about how he can set up in a way that will make us harder to play against. Sticking to his same principles, of course, but we need to be harder to play against. Going a goal or two down every game is tough regardless of who you are playing, and as I said, our attacking players aren't exactly firing on all cylinders, so we need to be better defensively.

 

[AjaxCunian]

It is quite obvious that we have been conceding too many goals for a good year now.

This quote however, let it remain a quite. Many have shown that the teams with the highest xG tend to win trophies.

But sure, we need to become much harder to play against.

 

[Hansi Fick]

Ten Hag's Ajax conceded incredibly few goals, he's clearly fantastic in organizing his teams to defend.
Same is true with Pep who has a better defensive record in any league than Mourinho for example, despite the latter having the reputation of a defensive specialist. Good possession coaches are the true defensive specialists.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

It is quite obvious that we have been conceding too many goals for a good year now.

This quote however, let it remain a quite. Many have shown that the teams with the highest xG tend to win trophies.

But sure, we need to become much harder to play against.

Does the same not apply to the teams that concede the least? Having had a quick glimpse of the last 3 seasons, the team on top is the team that conceded the least. City scored 102 goals in 19/20 (the most by 15+) and still didn't win the league.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

I've always been of the opinion that if you can maintain a solid unit throughout and not concede many chances which we do, then you'll always have a chance of scoring, whether it be through open play or a set piece.

Currently, and something that has been a problem for a while, we are way too easy to play against. As a result, we concede too many goals.

Yes, attacking players are important, but ours don't even look like scoring, so going forward, I think ten Hag needs to think about how he can set up in a way that will make us harder to play against. Sticking to his same principles, of course, but we need to be harder to play against. Going a goal or two down every game is tough regardless of who you are playing, and as I said, our attacking players aren't exactly firing on all cylinders, so we need to be better defensively.

We tried that crap when we spent £130mil on AWB & Maguire. No matter how good a defence you have you will still concede, the way to win games is outscoring the opponent.

United’s issue isn’t a misfiring attack, it’s in every department. We could have Van Dijk at the back & we’d still concede. Put Mbappe upfront & he’s still got Rashford & Co. falling over themselves. Add FdJ & he’s still surrounded my the McFred’s & Bruno’s who give the ball away putting the defence under pressure constantly.

There’s a reason Liverpool went Firminho > Mane > Salah > Van Dik > Allison. You don’t win a season with a series of 1-0’s anymore.

 

[Lecland07]

I never agreed with this. You can't win games with a great defence - the most you will get is a draw.

With a great attack and midfield, you can still win games despite having a crap defence. This is the way the team should be built - and is exactly the way Klopp built this Liverpool team.

 

[Trequarista10]

I always thought that SAF quote was a sly dig at our rivals he came up against, who played some expansive football (Keegan's Newcastle, Evans' Liverpool, Wenger's Arsenal), rather than something to be taken literally. SAF was always willing to sacrifice an attacker when needed in order to shore up the defence, just as he was always willing to throw on four forwards if we needed a goal, and I think he took pride in the pragmatic victories over his stylish rivals who weren't as willing to substitute style for substance.

The obvious answer is that you need both, and both contribute to each other. If you can peg the opposition back and put them under sustained pressure, you will concede less (unless you play a high line with Maguire), if you concede early the opposition can park the bus and make it difficult to break them down. Our current team concedes too much, then can't break down the opposition. Also the midfield are incapable of dominating possession to create pressure (unless the opposition willing allow us to dominate possession so they can hit us on the counter).

 

[mu4c_20le]

I never agreed with this. You can't win games with a great defence - the most you will get is a draw.

With a great attack and midfield, you can still win games despite having a crap defence. This is the way the team should be built - and is exactly the way Klopp built this Liverpool team.

Pretty sure that quote wasn't talking about parking the bus.

And why Klopp? He (and his freakishly lucky recruitment) is a one off. Why not Spurs, or Galactico Madrid.

 

[AjaxCunian]

Does the same not apply to the teams that concede the least? Having had a quick glimpse of the last 3 seasons, the team on top is the team that conceded the least. City scored 102 goals in 19/20 (the most by 15+) and still didn't win the league.

https://www.besoccer.com/new/attack-or-defence-which-wins-titles

One of the weaker articles. But sure, usually the best teams, which win titles, are both strong in offense and strong in defense.

I think statistical analysis on xG and xGA and how they correlate with rankings would be stronger conclusions though. It is a bit pointless to look at few individual campaigns and pick out their numbers of goals scored/conceded.

 

[Member 109952]

I never agreed with this. You can't win games with a great defence - the most you will get is a draw.

With a great attack and midfield, you can still win games despite having a crap defence. This is the way the team should be built - and is exactly the way Klopp built this Liverpool team.

I agree with this. If anything we should be expected to concede more goals - the attacking standard in lower PL teams has increased a lot from SAF's days.

The difference is our attack is way worse than anything we could put out back the.

 

[bazza3727]

I never agreed with this. You can't win games with a great defence - the most you will get is a draw.

With a great attack and midfield, you can still win games despite having a crap defence. This is the way the team should be built - and is exactly the way Klopp built this Liverpool team.

Then, for now, you're going to get a lot more performances and results like the last two! This lot on here (the Caf) will go apoplectic. Good luck with that!

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

We tried that crap when we spent £130mil on AWB & Maguire. No matter how good a defence you have you will still concede, the way to win games is outscoring the opponent.

United’s issue isn’t a misfiring attack, it’s in every department. We could have Van Dijk at the back & we’d still concede. Put Mbappe upfront & he’s still got Rashford & Co. falling over themselves. Add FdJ & he’s still surrounded my the McFred’s & Bruno’s who give the ball away putting the defence under pressure constantly.

There’s a reason Liverpool went Firminho > Mane > Salah > Van Dik > Allison. You don’t win a season with a series of 1-0’s anymore.

You can't say we tried that crap with AWB and Maguire, as you know for a fact that these two players haven't lived up to expectations.

Of course you win games by outscoring the opponents but the principles of football have never changed, in that you need to be good off the ball. When I talk about defence, I am not just talking about our back four + keeper. I am talking about how we "defend" as a unit and it's not good enough! If City and Liverpool didn't do this well, they'd be nowhere near as good as they currently are. Despite having a superior team to pretty much every team in the league, they run just as much. If you compare that to PSG, for example, who have a massively superior team to most teams in Europe, then why are they not dominating? It's because they don't work that hard off the ball. I mean, this is a team that lost the team to Lille in 20/21. No disrespect to Lille, but this should not be happening! Brentford, not Brighton has better players than us, but they run more and are harder to play against. Until we do the basics right, then feck everything else.

Oh, and Liverpool won the ''title'' after they got Van Dijk and Allison.

 

[NZT-One]

You can't say we tried that crap with AWB and Maguire, as you know for a fact that these two players haven't lived up to expectations.

Of course you win games by outscoring the opponents but the principles of football have never changed, in that you need to be good off the ball. When I talk about defence, I am not just talking about our back four + keeper. I am talking about how we "defend" as a unit and it's not good enough! If City and Liverpool didn't do this well, they'd be nowhere near as good as they currently are. Despite having a superior team to pretty much every team in the league, they run just as much. If you compare that to PSG, for example, who have a massively superior team to most teams in Europe, then why are they not dominating? It's because they don't work that hard off the ball. I mean, this is a team that lost the team to Lille in 20/21. No disrespect to Lille, but this should not be happening! Brentford, not Brighton has better players than us, but they run more and are harder to play against. Until we do the basics right, then feck everything else.

Oh, and Liverpool won the ''title'' after they got Van Dijk and Allison.

Fully agree.

 

[Abraxas]

You need both, surely. What manager worth his salt would fixate on one or the other? Setting up a team structure that adequately protects a defence that is not individually top class in every position is the same as having a good defence. It may even be achieved through progressive means, like pressing and possession..it still doesn't make a difference to which is more important, a good defence is a good defence.

If you score loads you can afford to concede a few more, if you concede less you can afford to score fewer. It's pretty common sense stuff but ultimately both have to be up to snuff if you're going to win leagues or European honours. With the way the league is going you will probably need it to even get top 4.

 

[united_99]

I don’t think that quote can be taken literally. Under SAF there were many seasons where we actually conceded more than at least one or two other top teams in the league, but still had the best goal difference as we also scored many more goals than them.
It was probably just a quote in order to praise his defence because usually attacking players get all the credit and defenders most of the blame.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

You can't say we tried that crap with AWB and Maguire, as you know for a fact that these two players haven't lived up to expectations.

But you said we should build from the back & we did try that already. Them not ‘living up to expectations’ is the excuse now. Keep 38 clean sheets & score no goals in a season & thats 38 points.

You can assemble the worlds greatest defence. If that’s the only part of your team functioning you’re asking them to do the impossible.

Of course you win games by outscoring the opponents but the principles of football have never changed, in that you need to be good off the ball. When I talk about defence, I am not just talking about our back four + keeper. I am talking about how we "defend" as a unit and it's not good enough! If City and Liverpool didn't do this well, they'd be nowhere near as good as they currently are. Despite having a superior team to pretty much every team in the league, they run just as much. If you compare that to PSG, for example, who have a massively superior team to most teams in Europe, then why are they not dominating? It's because they don't work that hard off the ball. I mean, this is a team that lost the team to Lille in 20/21. No disrespect to Lille, but this should not be happening! Brentford, not Brighton has better players than us, but they run more and are harder to play against. Until we do the basics right, then feck everything else.

So if you’re on about how the team defend as a unit why is your initial post dismissing the attack when [& I think we’d agree here] as you say, you defend from the front.

We aren’t a defence away.

Oh, and Liverpool won the ''title'' after they got Van Dijk and Allison.

You’ve totally missed the point about it being a process but this is the Caf so. . . Klopp worked on scoring the goals then sured up the defence to win things. There’s a reason he didn’t sign Alison & Van Dijk win the title & say feck you to the 3 aforementioned, because that isn’t how it works.

 

[Hammondo]

I never agreed with this. You can't win games with a great defence - the most you will get is a draw.

With a great attack and midfield, you can still win games despite having a crap defence. This is the way the team should be built - and is exactly the way Klopp built this Liverpool team.

He didn't build a great midfield at all though.

 

[SirReginald]

He didn't build a great midfield at all though.

It’s more solid than yours though.. it honestly doesn’t matter how good your defense is or your GK is if your midfield is losing every duel, every 2nd ball, not dictating the tempo and not retaining possession. The odds that you will concede eventually drastically increases.

Yesterday the midfield that started the game was pathetic. Literally lost out on every possible metric and it showed. No defense in the World would be able to handle the pressure they were under. That’s not to give them credit though because they too were losing their duels.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

But you said we should build from the back & we did try that already. Them not ‘living up to expectations’ is the excuse now. Keep 38 clean sheets & score no goals in a season & thats 38 points.

You can assemble the worlds greatest defence. If that’s the only part of your team functioning you’re asking them to do the impossible.

So if you’re on about how the team defend as a unit why is your initial post dismissing the attack when [& I think we’d agree here] as you say, you defend from the front.

We aren’t a defence away.

You’ve totally missed the point about it being a process but this is the Caf so. . . Klopp worked on scoring the goals then sured up the defence to win things. There’s a reason he didn’t sign Alison & Van Dijk win the title & say feck you to the 3 aforementioned, because that isn’t how it works.

My initial post spoke about how we needed to be better as a team when it comes to defending.

No, I've not missed your point, pal. You said they got attacking players first, etc, and I replied they didn't win their title until Alisson and Van Dijk joined. Of course, that would have applied the same way around, too.

The main point is that both City and Liverpool work a lot harder than us off the ball. Until we do that, then scrap the titles.

 

[Belisarius]

It’s more solid than yours though.. it honestly doesn’t matter how good your defense is or your GK is if your midfield is losing every duel, every 2nd ball, not dictating the tempo and not retaining possession. The odds that you will concede eventually drastically increases.

Yesterday the midfield that started the game was pathetic. Literally lost out on every possible metric and it showed. No defense in the World would be able to handle the pressure they were under. That’s not to give them credit though because they too were losing their duels.

I think for Liverpool we should set-up to aim for a 0 - 0 draw. All defence.


Elanga
Malacia Fred Mctominay Wan Bissaka
Jones Martinez Varane Maguire Lindelof
Heaton


Tell the boys to just hoof it out every chance they get and defend for 90 minutes with 9 at the back and Elanga chasing up front. Maybe at half-time you could substitute Elanga for Rashford and in the 85th minute if it is still 0 - 0 bring on Ronaldo, Fernandes and Sancho.

 

[MackRobinson]

That SAF quote seems to say attack is more important that defense.

You can't titles without winning matches.

 

[Lecland07]

He didn't build a great midfield at all though.

Henderson is massively underrated. He is/was a great player. Fabinho is one of the best DMs in the world. I would say it was a great midfield.

 

[mu4c_20le]

You can't say we tried that crap with AWB and Maguire, as you know for a fact that these two players haven't lived up to expectations.

Of course you win games by outscoring the opponents but the principles of football have never changed, in that you need to be good off the ball. When I talk about defence, I am not just talking about our back four + keeper. I am talking about how we "defend" as a unit and it's not good enough! If City and Liverpool didn't do this well, they'd be nowhere near as good as they currently are. Despite having a superior team to pretty much every team in the league, they run just as much. If you compare that to PSG, for example, who have a massively superior team to most teams in Europe, then why are they not dominating? It's because they don't work that hard off the ball. I mean, this is a team that lost the team to Lille in 20/21. No disrespect to Lille, but this should not be happening! Brentford, not Brighton has better players than us, but they run more and are harder to play against. Until we do the basics right, then feck everything else.

Oh, and Liverpool won the ''title'' after they got Van Dijk and Allison.

People tend to forget that they won feck all until they splurged on the defense. Before that they were just a fancier Spurs.

 

[NZT-One]

I think for Liverpool we should set-up to aim for a 0 - 0 draw. All defence.


Elanga
Malacia Fred Mctominay Wan Bissaka
Jones Martinez Varane Maguire Lindelof
Heaton


Tell the boys to just hoof it out every chance they get and defend for 90 minutes with 9 at the back and Elanga chasing up front. Maybe at half-time you could substitute Elanga for Rashford and in the 85th minute if it is still 0 - 0 bring on Ronaldo, Fernandes and Sancho.

I agree with the sentiment and I'd try the same in terms of the bolded part. But going all out defense is also allowing the opponent to come at you with even more players which will increase pressure to a degree, that no team will be able to hold for 90 minutes without any sort of relieve. The Brighton game is a great example, we started without a striker so Brightons defenders didn't have anything to worry about and pushed up. When we brought on Ronaldo, this wasn't possible for Brighton to do anymore so they become more reserved in that regard. That needs to be considered.

I'd recommend something like

DDG
Martinez Varane Maguire shaw
Elanga Fred Eriksen McTom Malacia
Rashford

If Bruno is up for a battle, bring him instead of McFred. Play Oleball but don't expect too much ^^ But yeah, really hope, we will introduce some sort of pragmatism. Be it only for a few weeks until things have calmed down a little.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

I'd rather outscore my opponent 6-5 than grind a 1-0 win.

 

[NZT-One]

I'd rather outscore my opponent 6-5 than grind a 1-0 win.

Think most fans would be happy if we'd go that route for a while. At least it is entertaining, probably would raise the confidence as well. Thing is, I'm starting to think, that this isn't really in the cards for United. I mean, what else could we do - we are fielding a Poacher, a striker on the left, Sancho on the right, Bruno in the whole plus Eriksen. Granted, we could try to have our fullbacks more attacking but apart from that, there isn't much we could add to improve the striking power. Fullbacks and a higher line, maybe then we could at least try it out but I am not convinced it'd work.

 

[Hammondo]

Henderson is massively underrated. He is/was a great player. Fabinho is one of the best DMs in the world. I would say it was a great midfield.

It's a good hard working midfielder. No world class players, it's where they get beaten by Real Madrid and City quite badly.

 

[Hammondo]

It’s more solid than yours though.. it honestly doesn’t matter how good your defense is or your GK is if your midfield is losing every duel, every 2nd ball, not dictating the tempo and not retaining possession. The odds that you will concede eventually drastically increases.

Yesterday the midfield that started the game was pathetic. Literally lost out on every possible metric and it showed. No defense in the World would be able to handle the pressure they were under. That’s not to give them credit though because they too were losing their duels.

No point comparing it to ours, ours is pathetic. We are bottom of the league for a good reason.

 

[mav_9me]

Haven't read the replies but this is all moot. Cuz we don't have an attack or defense. Oh not to forget we don't have a midfield either.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

When I look at the narrow wins in our last two games, I honestly think we'd have drew or perhaps lost those kinds of games last season.

Since the Brentford game, we've looked a lot more solid as a unit. It helps that we've had a settled back four, who seem to have all gelled together but we seem to defending a lot better together as a team, too.

Our attack still leaves a lot to be desired but I still think we have enough quality up top to nick a goal or two.

 

[Red the Bear]

Haven't read the replies but this is all moot. Cuz we don't have an attack or defense. Oh not to forget we don't have a midfield either.

Thankfully this aged quite badly, for now at least.

 

[mav_9me]

Thankfully this aged quite badly, for now at least.

Fingers crossed this continues to age worse.

 

[mav_9me]

When I look at the narrow wins in our last two games, I honestly think we'd have drew or perhaps lost those kinds of games last season.

Since the Brentford game, we've looked a lot more solid as a unit. It helps that we've had a settled back four, who seem to have all gelled together but we seem to defending a lot better together as a team, too.

Our attack still leaves a lot to be desired but I still think we have enough quality up top to nick a goal or two.

Zero doubt about it. Definitely would have drawn against Leicester via a random deflection or setpiece.

 

[Rozay]

Think this saying is now the other way around personally.

 

[Red the Bear]

Fingers crossed this continues to age worse.

Everyone's wish.