Sure but when you're so good the opponent dont have the ball that's the best form of defence.
Long gone 442 with 2 monster cb at the back
Long gone 442 with 2 monster cb at the back
“Attack wins you games, defence wins you titles”
- Thread starter Red00012
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City would win the league with Maguire at centre half every week. This is bigger than personnel. It’s about the way a team operates top to bottom.
Don't think it's true. Anyways top teams top both attacking and defending charts and different teams defend in different ways.
Turns out keeping possession is the most successful form of defense.
No. I’m saying that was a blueprint that worked in the Fergie era. Away at tougher grounds he would settle for a 0-0. We had 1-2 month periods during most seasons where the attack didn’t click at all and we grinded out 1-0 wins. Football has moved on from that which is reflected in the points totals and sheer amount of goals top teams score nowadays. Now you have to try to win every single game and try to kill off every game as early as possible.
For me we need to add two things. Control and goals. Add those two and the rest (including defence) will take care of itself.
We don’t score enough goals. 50 odd goals with 3 games left is criminal. Take away the two Leeds games who play suicide football against us and we’re averaging 1.3 goals per game. No defence will ever win you any title with such rubbish numbers in attack.
We need to learn to control games. Maguire, Lindelof and Varane look way worse than they actually are simply because the opposition has a free run at them for 90 minutes. Get an actual midfield in front of them and they’ll look half competent again. I’m also hopeful ETH can milk a couple of decent seasons out of Shaw. If we talk strictly about the back 4 then I believe RB is the only spot we need urgent business in.
Where OP and several others are wrong with this “defence wins you titles” malarkey is that they think only the GK and the back 4 are there to defend. That’s totally wrong. You attack as a team and you defend as a team. The way your forwards press. The way your midfield controls the game. The way your defenders are press resistant and help start attacks.The way you collectively suffocate opponents.
We simply have to prioritise business in midfield and attack this summer. The defence (apart from RB) can wait until next year.
And attack.
For me I think it better describes approaches to games, playing vs the top 6 you need to defend, not lose, vs the rest you need to win. Other top teams will beat those below regularly as we need to, the league is won vs your performances against the other top 6 clubs for me and you need to *not lose* those.
Granted you all defend as a team but when our back 5 isn’t good enough we don’t even have the basic foundation to defend properly.
Liverpool.
Firminho > Mane > Salah > VvD + Allison
We spent £130mil on the defence when we bought Maguire & AWB, look where that has us.
You need to start winning games before you win titles so building a defence without being able to score efficiently/consistently is a losing strategy in todays game.
If an outstanding defender becomes available then fine but we regularly take the pitch with over £200mil of defenders/goalkeeper then can’t retain the ball or produce attacking patterns.
I love Fergie but with the points being put up now he’d be signing a Kane [who we should have signed years ago if successful, not now] over a Maguire.
Firminho > Mane > Salah > VvD + Allison
We spent £130mil on the defence when we bought Maguire & AWB, look where that has us.
You need to start winning games before you win titles so building a defence without being able to score efficiently/consistently is a losing strategy in todays game.
If an outstanding defender becomes available then fine but we regularly take the pitch with over £200mil of defenders/goalkeeper then can’t retain the ball or produce attacking patterns.
I love Fergie but with the points being put up now he’d be signing a Kane [who we should have signed years ago if successful, not now] over a Maguire.
I’d much prefer: outscoring the opponents.
Hasn't that always pretty much been the case? I don't think those two reinvented how to win a league.
3 words for you. Sir Alex Ferguson. No other manager in the history of the game would of won the league with our 2012/13 squad.
As far as I'm concerned, you attack as a unit and you defend as one from the front.
We've made it far easier for teams to have a go at us just purely from a offensive point of view with our abysmal pressing from our forward players.
Then you have the midfield, in which we have practically little control in, and a defence which has zero confidence and awareness.
Its a gigantic mess.
We've made it far easier for teams to have a go at us just purely from a offensive point of view with our abysmal pressing from our forward players.
Then you have the midfield, in which we have practically little control in, and a defence which has zero confidence and awareness.
Its a gigantic mess.
Pretty much, but there was a small period where you could get away with just a strong attack or stout defense.
Liverpool almost won the league in 2013-2014 and their defense was horrible. Ours was terrible in the last title we won. Leicester didn't score that many goals in their title campaign. Chelsea weren't special in attack nor defense with their last title under Jose.
But yeah you're right. You generally need both. And high GD has been fairly prevalent in recent title winners. I don't ever want to see us lose a title again on GD. If we get back to our winning ways, we should always go for the jugular in games when it's possible.
I see your point and agree with it largely - we need far more in a defensive sense from our midfield and forwards. But I disagree with the idea that those positions are more urgent this summer.
Just as defence starts at the top and is the responsibility of the whole team, so to the attack and control you are after starts from the back, with players who won't shit themselves every time they receive the ball under the slightest bit of pressure. As you say, modern football has moved on and the idea of 2 magic midfielders who will suddenly fix all our problems is nonsense. The best teams these days have (full/wing)backs who step into the midfield and created number overlaps, or centre backs who can step up and have enough quality on the ball to dictate play. Just as you say our defence would be better if they were better protected, I say our midfielders would be better if they were better supported.
Needing a stable base from which to build your team isn't some Fergie relic from a bygone era and it's no coincidence that Liverpool started finding success once they'd brought in Van Dijk and Robertson, or that Pep's City hit their straps after he'd tried out 45 different £50m centre back and fullbacks before settling on a combination he was happy with.
We don't score enough goals, I agree with you. But the stats this season say that only 4 teams in the league have scored more than us, while 13 teams have conceded less. It is essential that we address the issues in midfield and attack this summer, but it is equally essential that we bring in better footballers and defenders than Wan-Bissaka, Dalot, Maguire and Lindelof.
We’ve signed a world class centre back (Varane ) and got worse defensively.
Lack of goals has cost us more than a leaky defence this year.
And without a midfield you can't either attack or defend.
How dare you points out facts ? Don't you know the utd way is to perpetuate myths!
Which is exactly why I wouldn’t bother building from the back. Every team conceded goals, if you’re not scoring multiples most games then you leave yourself too open to the brain farts at the back costing you.
Did Liverpool win a league title without VVD? Also, how much money did Pep spend on his defence?
You could argue it the other way. By that, I mean, if you have a solid base, then the attackers have more freedom. I mean, we play a completely different system to Liverpool and City, which means our attackers have less freedom anyway, but if we were to get the defensive midfielder the fans have been crying out for, then who's to say our attacking play wouldn't improve?
It would but that's mainly because McShitshimself won't be in our starting XI.
The team would improve all-round by removing one of the most hopeless players we've ever from our starting XI.
Wholeheartedly agree. You don’t buy the defence then suddenly win the title if you can’t put score opponents on the occasions the defence fails.
The fact people think this is a good idea after we’ve tried the £130mil on defenders to solve the issues at the back not long ago really is the height of United fandom these days. Both the teams we’re chasing domestically built in a certain way but no we’re United so let’s do something we’ve tried & failed at again.
If we were able to keep the ball the current defence [who do need replacing eventually] wouldn’t be under such pressure. We could buy VvD & he’d look nowhere near as good behind McFred & co.
Brilliant post.
Michael Carrick was our main midfielder that season. Anderson only started 9 league games, one more than Paul Scholes. Plus Sir Alex was manager, only he could have won the title with that squad.
Exactly.
I'm not saying we have world class defenders, that's far from it, but the way we defend is atrocious tactically or fundamentally rather than individually. Our wingers never track back and our midfielders are unable to help in defense leaving huge gaps behind them. They have 0 stamina and mobility.
When quality attackers are 1 vs 1 with defenders it's always going to look bad for the latter.
I have never seen a PL side this season that leaves such huge gaps between the lines.
Telles looked like the worst LB in the world on many occasions but when you have Rashford helping you on the wing you know you are going to be in big trouble.
Defenders that don't crumble on the ball and midfielders that can control a game go a long way in helping with defense.. Ti also allows for more energy when pressing as you have ball most of the time.
Henderson in goal and decent midfielders would see a huge improvement in our defending imo. I would only be looking to sign a rb personally, and even then that's after a striker and two central midfielders.
Love de gea and Henderson is not as good as him at shot stopping but I think heenderson has the potential to help us improve overall.
Love de gea and Henderson is not as good as him at shot stopping but I think heenderson has the potential to help us improve overall.
The quote isn't really relevant to our situation at the moment, seeing as we have neither.
What we’ve seen in the last 4 years is that simply focusing on defence while not investing properly in midfield won’t improve our defending no matter if we purchase players of the quality of Varane. Our previous manager was foolish and greatly miscalculated not investing in more midfielders. If we purchase 2 quality midfielders this summer (the bare minimum), then players like Maguire and Shaw might start looking like decent/competent defenders again.
We concede so many because we’re terrible all over the pitch, not specifically in defence. But also defence.
City scored 5 but aren’t in the final. I rest my case 
City scored 5 but aren’t in the final. I rest my case
Madrid conceded 5 goals but are in the final.
The sarcasm was lost on you I guess
It happens.
A successful side needs to attack well and defend well. No rocket science degree required to figure that one out.
Midfield wins you nothing
Defence win championships as they say in the NFL