Álvaro Morata | Performances

AXVnee7 said:
Of course, but that goes for any season. Never should United (or any of the other contenders) go into a season expecting to latch onto other teams faltering. That'd be absurd.

A stronger league isn't our responsibility. It's only our own duty to make sure we're a top team. The rest is on everyone else, and their own teams. I can understand wanting the league to get stronger on the whole, but ultimately a league win is a league win and whatever advantages befall United is the best situation. When United do eventually win the league again, no one will care how weak the league was. The headline story will be that United have won again and that's it. If everyone else puts up a terrible fight, then that's their problem and not ours.
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Too true. feck a strong league, wouldn't we all a SAF style domination nowadays ?
 
The United Irishman said:
Yes, but your imperious defence of the player on here is strange. It's like you are genuinely annoyed we all don't think he's amazing.
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I don't care what others think. Just stating my opinion of the player and defending it against non-sensical views that oppose mine. Its what we do here.
 
WoodysWallet said:
I can't see it being even. Lukaku will be the focal point of our attack, and providing he is as consistent as he has been over the last few years, I can see him out scoring Morata.

I think Morata is the better player, but in terms of goal scoring he'll fall short in the long run.
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What is an advantage for him is that people round him also score goals. If they stay on the pitch that is. We now have to hope the same happens here. It doesn't matter how many Lukaku scores if the rest don't improve.
 
The United Irishman said:
Yes, but your imperious defence of the player on here is strange. It's like you are genuinely annoyed we all don't think he's amazing.
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Don't see what's wrong with him defending his view. Some of the comments after his debut were laughable.
 
AXVnee7 said:
Of course, but that goes for any season. Never should United (or any of the other contenders) go into a season expecting to latch onto other teams faltering. That'd be absurd.

A stronger league isn't our responsibility. It's only our own duty to make sure we're a top team. The rest is on everyone else, and their own teams. I can understand wanting the league to get stronger on the whole, but ultimately a league win is a league win and whatever advantages befall United is the best situation. When United do eventually win the league again, no one will care how weak the league was. The headline story will be that United have won again and that's it. If everyone else puts up a terrible fight, then that's their problem and not ours.
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Where did I say it is?

The point is, we can't have a strong league when all rivals are doing badly with their big signings flopping. Its beneficial in the short term but long term that helps no one. The PL was highly competitive throughout the 2000s and that was when we saw the strongest European results for English teams in recent memory. That's the standard we should be aiming for.
 
Raoul said:
What's the point in betting. We should be able to make predictions without someone challenging us to a bet. If it doesn't happen then we can refer to my posts here.
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You backed off on your prediction the moment it was challenged. You seem intent on hyping him to the moon, for some strange reason. Even past the point where you actually believe your predictions will come true. 35-40 goals this season, right?

Very odd.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
Where did I say it is?

The point is, we can't have a strong league when all rivals are doing badly with their big signings flopping. Its beneficial in the short term but long term that helps no one. The PL was highly competitive throughout the 2000s and that was when we saw the strongest European results for English teams in recent memory. That's the standard we should be aiming for.
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In that scenario why the hell would any of us be anything other than thrilled? Short term. Long term. Who gives a feck. That stuff in bold would be a fantastic outcome.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
You backed off on your prediction the moment it was challenged. You seem intent on hyping him to the moon, for some strange reason. Even past the point where you actually believe your predictions will come true. 35-40 goals this season, right?

Very odd.
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My prediction stands assuming he plays a full season as a starter. Nothing odd about it.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
In that scenario why the hell would any of us be anything other than thrilled? Short term. Long term. Who gives a feck. That stuff in bold would be a fantastic outcome.
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I'm a fan of football in general, not just Utd. If you watch sport with the sole aim of your favourite doing well at the expense of all others, it'd be deadly dull.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Don't see what's wrong with him defending his view. Some of the comments after his debut were laughable.
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I said I think the player is ridiculously overly hyped on here and found the cult following weird and strange and he responded. I'm entitled to my view too. I am not aware of the comments you are referring to, but if someone is saying he's shit etc, then that's excessive too.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
Where did I say it is?

The point is, we can't have a strong league when all rivals are doing badly with their big signings flopping. Its beneficial in the short term but long term that helps no one. The PL was highly competitive throughout the 2000s and that was when we saw the strongest European results for English teams in recent memory. That's the standard we should be aiming for.
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You didn't but in the context of the discussion of Morata, if people who would be hoping he performs well to make the league stronger overall to our make our league win(pending) look better, then the reality is it won't matter too much. The media love in for both United and Mourinho, and the smugness of the fans would override any sense of a weak league.

I'm not denying the beneficiaries of a stronger league at all. You're absolutely right in that when the League is stronger on the whole, then we can expect better performances in Europe. But what I'm saying is that it's not our concern with rivals for the strength of the league. We should only worry about them in the context of the league or cups, and only if they're actual obstacles in the way. It's just not our problem. We focus on ourselves and making ourselves strong as possible, and the rest do what they have to do.

Do you think Chelsea fans care that they won the league whilst Pogba "flopped"? Liverpool and Arsenals fans would be too smug with a league win to even begin to accommodate any such notions.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Precisely.

Why on earth any United fan would want Chelsea's new number one striker to be anything other than an abject flop is a fecking mystery to me. People are weird.
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Can't find it at the moment but there was an interesting study done that essentially demonstrated the fact we care more about being proven right than being successful. The reason for that is being proven wrong is more damaging to our mental health than being successful is beneficial, both short-term and long-term.

In trying to find it I came across this, which is pretty interesting in itself:

As is often the case with psychological studies, the whole setup was a put-on. Though half the notes were indeed genuine—they’d been obtained from the Los Angeles County coroner’s office—the scores were fictitious. The students who’d been told they were almost always right were, on average, no more discerning than those who had been told they were mostly wrong.

In the second phase of the study, the deception was revealed. The students were told that the real point of the experiment was to gauge their responses to thinking they were right or wrong. (This, it turned out, was also a deception.) Finally, the students were asked to estimate how many suicide notes they had actually categorized correctly, and how many they thought an average student would get right. At this point, something curious happened. The students in the high-score group said that they thought they had, in fact, done quite well—significantly better than the average student—even though, as they’d just been told, they had zero grounds for believing this. Conversely, those who’d been assigned to the low-score group said that they thought they had done significantly worse than the average student—a conclusion that was equally unfounded.

“Once formed,” the researchers observed dryly, “impressions are remarkably perseverant.”
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Mercier and Sperber prefer the term “myside bias.” Humans, they point out, aren’t randomly credulous. Presented with someone else’s argument, we’re quite adept at spotting the weaknesses. Almost invariably, the positions we’re blind about are our own.

A recent experiment performed by Mercier and some European colleagues neatly demonstrates this asymmetry. Participants were asked to answer a series of simple reasoning problems. They were then asked to explain their responses, and were given a chance to modify them if they identified mistakes. The majority were satisfied with their original choices; fewer than fifteen per cent changed their minds in step two.

In step three, participants were shown one of the same problems, along with their answer and the answer of another participant, who’d come to a different conclusion. Once again, they were given the chance to change their responses. But a trick had been played: the answers presented to them as someone else’s were actually their own, and vice versa. About half the participants realized what was going on. Among the other half, suddenly people became a lot more critical. Nearly sixty per cent now rejected the responses that they’d earlier been satisfied with.

This lopsidedness, according to Mercier and Sperber, reflects the task that reason evolved to perform, which is to prevent us from getting screwed by the other members of our group. Living in small bands of hunter-gatherers, our ancestors were primarily concerned with their social standing, and with making sure that they weren’t the ones risking their lives on the hunt while others loafed around in the cave. There was little advantage in reasoning clearly, while much was to be gained from winning arguments.
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The Gormans, too, argue that ways of thinking that now seem self-destructive must at some point have been adaptive. And they, too, dedicate many pages to confirmation bias, which, they claim, has a physiological component. They cite research suggesting that people experience genuine pleasure—a rush of dopamine—when processing information that supports their beliefs. “It feels good to ‘stick to our guns’ even if we are wrong,” they observe.
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AXVnee7 said:
Do you think Chelsea fans care that they won the league whilst Pogba "flopped"? Liverpool and Arsenals fans would be too smug with a league win to even begin to accommodate any such notions.
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They are entitled to their opinion and I to mine. Maybe it's different for those who discuss football with fans of other clubs regularly in real life but as it is I only have time to watch a steam or going to the pub for games at the weekend. The spectacle is all I care about.
 
Brwned said:
Can't find it at the moment but there was an interesting study done that essentially demonstrated the fact we care more about being proven right than being successful. The reason for that is being proven wrong is more damaging to our mental health than being successful is beneficial, both short-term and long-term.

In trying to find it I came across this, which is pretty interesting in itself:
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Its moreso a case of knowing one's own argument is solid and able to withstand scrutiny. If you know you're right then you're incentivized to continue debating since you know you can't lose.
 
Brwned said:
Can't find it at the moment but there was an interesting study done that essentially demonstrated the fact we care more about being proven right than being successful. The reason for that is being proven wrong is more damaging to our mental health than being successful is beneficial, both short-term and long-term.

In trying to find it I came across this, which is pretty interesting in itself:
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It's a phenomenon you see here all the time. People refusing to accept United players have played well in a game because that would make them "wrong" for being adamant the player was shit.

Rooting for an opposition striker to do well at one of our big rivals in his debut season is a new low, though. Weirdest shit I've ever seen on here.
 
He is a fantastic player and will do well for Chelsea if given the chance. Simple.

There are more posters complaining about 'fanboys' than there fanboys here if any at all.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Your favourite literally can't do well without that being at the expense of others. That's how sport works ffs.
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Expense of others meaning they are all in the shit.

It's like Federer winning a Slam because his final opponent retired. It takes the gloss off it. I'd still be glad but the victory would feel a bit hollow.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It's a phenomenon you see here all the time. People refusing to accept United players have played well in a game because that would make them "wrong" for being adamant the player was shit.

Rooting for an opposition striker to do well at one of our big rivals in his debut season is a new low, though. Weirdest shit I've ever seen on here.
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Who is rooting for him ?
 
Raoul said:
He may not reach 35 depending on circumstances (injuries/suspensions etc), but the quality is definitely there.

Giroud is a completely irrelevant matter here.
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Ok, let's put a tighter criteria on it. I bet you that if he starts at least 30 league games, he won't score 30+ league goals. That removes the risk of it being influenced by external factors.

Giroud is an example that extrapolating a bit-part player's goals per minute ratio to the entire season will produce a false impression. You can look at someone like Chicharito as another example of a player who that argument was put forward for, and was subsequently disproven. Do you agree?
Raoul said:
Its moreso a case of knowing one's own argument is solid and able to withstand scrutiny. If you know you're right then you're incentivized to continue debating since you know you can't lose.
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I'm not sure what you're arguing for but it has nothing to do with Pogue's point that I responded to...
 
If Spurs beat Newcastle tomorrow, which I expect them to, do I want Morata to score against Spurs next week, too right I do. I want Spurs to fail as we might pick up some good players off them when they start getting disgruntled eventually. I don't dislike Morata because he didn't snub us. It wasn't his choice. If he had then I would not like him too much. Think Morata will do well, but Chelsea won't, Conte won't.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
Expense of others meaning they are all in the shit.

It's like Federer winning a Slam because his final opponent retired. It takes the gloss off it. I'd still be glad but the victory would feel a bit hollow.
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No it wouldn't. Not even close. Is anyone suggesting we're handed a league title after all the other teams withdraw from the competition?
 
Maybe he's simply better off the bench?
All I'm seeing is Morata winning headers and flick ons, I thought that was the uneducated Lukakus domain?
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
They are entitled to their opinion and I to mine. Maybe it's different for those who discuss football with fans of other clubs regularly in real life but as it is I only have time to watch a steam or going to the pub for games at the weekend. The spectacle is all I care about.
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Of course. I haven't said that you have to wish he flops or whatever. And definitely there's a tribal element to it, but I guarantee a significant portion of fans posting weren't doing so in hopes of a better League. It could also be argued that a better spectacle is also made by poorer quality teams. Some of the sloppy defending this PL weekend has generated some thrilling games.


InfiniteBoredom said:
Expense of others meaning they are all in the shit.

It's like Federer winning a Slam because his final opponent retired. It takes the gloss off it. I'd still be glad but the victory would feel a bit hollow.
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Federer along the way this year in Wimbledon did actually have an opponent retire, although in the earlier stages. Obviously it's different in a final, but in the actual final Cilic picked up an injury which hampered him from playing at maximum level. No one cared.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
No it wouldn't. Not even close. Is anyone suggesting we're handed a league title after all the other teams withdraw from the competition?
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Are you being deliberately obtuse?

It couldnt be clearer. I want us to win in a highly competitive environment, not a canter where our rivals cant even pose a challenge. Think 08-09 vs 12-13.

Sports are competitions. Trophies are nice but the journey has to count for something.
 
Brwned said:
Ok, let's put a tighter criteria on it. I bet you that if he starts at least 30 league games, he won't score 30+ league goals. That removes the risk of it being influenced by external factors.

Giroud is an example that extrapolating a bit-part player's goals per minute ratio to the entire season will produce a false impression. You can look at someone like Chicharito as another example of a player who that argument was put forward for, and was subsequently disproven. Do you agree?
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I wasn't referring to league goals - all comps including CL and league cup. Similar to Ruud's first season with us. But even if he gets 29 or 41, what's the big deal. Still means he will be a quality world class (or near) striker.
 
AXVnee7 said:
Federer along the way this did actually have an opponent retire, although in the earlier stages. Obviously it's different in a final, but in the actual final Cilic picked up an injury which hampered him from playing at maximum level. No one cared.
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I was at the AO final and the high from that night was one I doubt I'd ever experience in my life ever again, unless Utd have another magical European night. The Wimbledon win certainly didnt mean as much, for what it's worth.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
Are you being deliberately obtuse?

It couldnt be clearer. I want us to win in a highly competitive environment, not a canter where our rivals cant even pose a challenge. Think 08-09 vs 12-13.

Sports are competitions. Trophies are nice but the journey has to count for something.
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I enjoyed each of those just as much as the other. Winning at a canter is great because it means we've had a terrific season.
 
Brwned said:
Ok, let's put a tighter criteria on it. I bet you that if he starts at least 30 league games, he won't score 30+ league goals. That removes the risk of it being influenced by external factors.

Giroud is an example that extrapolating a bit-part player's goals per minute ratio to the entire season will produce a false impression. You can look at someone like Chicharito as another example of a player who that argument was put forward for, and was subsequently disproven. Do you agree?


I'm not sure what you're arguing for but it has nothing to do with Pogue's point that I responded to...
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It speaks to the psychology of not wanting to back down in a debate to avoid being outed as wrong. My point is that if you know you are right, or have a high probability of being right, then you are incentivized to continue debating since you are well prepared to defend your position without the risk of being wrong.
 
Morata had better minutes per goal ratio than fecking Ronaldo last season ffs, a better assessment of his goalscoring prowess would be looking at goals he got per starts over the course of 2 seasons at Juventus and last one at Real Madrid.

The Giroud point is accurate, he does well coming off the bench when Arsenal have to throw everything at the opposition but cannot replicate that when he gets regular starts. People really underestimate the pressure of leading the line for a top club, the expectations of being the main goalscorer. Morata has never been that and now he has to become one, great cameo today but hold onto your horses before predicting he'll become one of the world's best by the end of this season.

Raoul said:
I wasn't referring to league goals - all comps including CL and league cup. Similar to Ruud's first season with us. But even if he gets 29 or 41, what's the big deal. Still means he will be a quality world class (or near) striker.
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Ruud scored 44 goals for us in his debut season, more or less goal per game. Morata numbers throughout his career have never been that high and yet you're predicting him to have a season like Ruud? Why is it surprising people are calling you out for it?

Raoul said:
Not particularly given he was a younger player and still developing at the time. He is only now on the cusp of entering his prime career years in terms of consistency and goal production. Therefore evaluate him on this year and the coming 2-3 seasons.
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Again you're shifting the goalpost, earlier you said he'll be up there with world's best strikers at the end of this season. Now it's 2-3 seasons?

Fair enough you rate the player highly but there's no evidence looking at this career (He's 24 and been playing at top level for 5 years now) to suggest he's a ruthless goalscorer.
 
Kush said:
Morata had better minutes per goal ratio than fecking Ronaldo last season ffs, a better assessment of his goalscoring prowess would be looking at goals he got per starts over the course of 2 seasons at Juventus and last one at Real Madrid.

The Giroud point is accurate, he does well coming off the bench when Arsenal have to throw everything at the opposition but cannot replicate that when he gets regular starts. People really underestimate the pressure of leading the line for a top club, the expectations of being the main goalscorer. Morata has never been that and now he has to become one, great cameo today but hold onto your horses before predicting he'll become one of the world's best by the end of this season.
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Not particularly given he was a younger player and still developing at the time. He is only now on the cusp of entering his prime career years in terms of consistency and goal production. Therefore evaluate him on this year and the coming 2-3 seasons.
 
Kush said:
Morata had better minutes per goal ratio than fecking Ronaldo last season ffs, a better assessment of his goalscoring prowess would be looking at goals he got per starts over the course of 2 seasons at Juventus and last one at Real Madrid.

The Giroud point is accurate, he does well coming off the bench when Arsenal have to throw everything at the opposition but cannot replicate that when he gets regular starts. People really underestimate the pressure of leading the line for a top club, the expectations of being the main goalscorer. Morata has never been that and now he has to become one, great cameo today but hold onto your horses before predicting he'll become one of the world's best by the end of this season.



Ruud scored 44 goals for us in his debut season, more or less goal per game. Morata numbers throughout his career have never been that high and yet you're predicting him to have a season like Ruud? Why is it surprising people are calling you out for it?
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Wrong
 
Kush said:
Morata had better minutes per goal ratio than fecking Ronaldo last season ffs, a better assessment of his goalscoring prowess would be looking at goals he got per starts over the course of 2 seasons at Juventus and last one at Real Madrid.

The Giroud point is accurate, he does well coming off the bench when Arsenal have to throw everything at the opposition but cannot replicate that when he gets regular starts. People really underestimate the pressure of leading the line for a top club, the expectations of being the main goalscorer. Morata has never been that and now he has to become one, great cameo today but hold onto your horses before predicting he'll become one of the world's best by the end of this season.
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And yet Madrid let him go? People round here are suggesting he will become one of the best strikers on the planet, yet he couldn't displace Benzema, and instead Madrid even see an 18 year old with more potential. Over hyped to the max on here.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I enjoyed each of those just as much as the other. Winning at a canter is great because it means we've had a terrific season.
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And you are entitled to that. I assure you neutrals felt differently, as was the case last year, albeit to a lesser degree.

Just to be clear, I never went out of my way to wish for other teams/players to do well, like when half the Caf was rooting for Leicester. It was imo a poor season overall despite their heroics.
 
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