It's easy to forgive conceding a few more when you score a few more to go with it. We have finished above you twice on goal difference alone in recent times, after all.
FA Premier League
Manchester United 1:2 Manchester City
Old Trafford
- Kick-off
- Sat, 10 September 2016 @ 12:30pm BST
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Discussion Your Lineup Prediction
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I wonder whether we'd actually deploy Fellaini even when fit. I don't think he's good against the nippy, technical midfielders as he is against the physical and bullish ones. Would like to see Herrera partner Pogba . Would have full faith in our defence but worry that Valencia won't be able to keep up with Nolito given his positioning tends to be quite poor at times.It's easy to forgive conceding a few more when you score a few more to go with it. We have finished above you twice on goal difference alone in recent times, after all.
Oh most definitely your goal difference has bettered ours (its not hard when we have LVG). However I think your defence will be an issue this season, and I don't mean it as a bitter hope.. its simply the case that 3 at the back is still a foreign concept in the premier league and the quality of the players might not make it work. They aren't Alaba/Boetang level and teams will continue to create.
The first 3 games have shown City are brilliant going forward, but they also indicate that any team in the Premier League can be confident of going in and nabbing a goal or two against such a set up. I think that's dangerous personally.
I don't think Herrera is suited for a number 6 role. When I think of number 6's, I think of Busquets, Matic, Motta, Pirlo etc.
Pirlo had Vidal and Pogba ahead of him remember. Herrera would have Pogba beside him rather than infront of him... and then Rooney who would be more or less up front. It would just be a bad move in my opinion. If they were gonna play Herrera, I'd rather they change the system and play Schneiderlin behind him and Pogba. But that would require dropping Rooney and I don't think any United manager is prepared to do that.
That would be a great point, had we played 3 at the back in any of the 5 games we've played so far this season. We've quite consistently played 4-1-4-1; just with lots of movement when we've got the ball. The fact that Fernandinho drops inbetween the centre backs when we have the ball doesn't make him a third centre back in my view, the same way we wouldn't classify the fullbacks as defensive midfielders when they step inside.
They step inside alright, but you have an extremely high line with only one established centre back. Its not astute defensively. You can call it 3 at the back or a "4-1-4-1" but either way you look at how City play, they are leaving gaping holes in their defence when they play - like any Pep side.
We were only bad at the back because a back three was a foreign concept earlier, which we don't actually play, and now it's actually because we just have gaping holes everywhere. You also keep using this one established centre-back line as well, when the reality is since both Stones and Otamendi were fit they have started together. So basically you don't really know why you think we are bad, you just think we are.
I think it's clear we are adapting to a new system, which will lead to a few goals at the wrong end for sure, but I'm pleased at how few chances we've actually conceded. Caballero has barely had a save to make thinking back, and while a few clean sheets would be nice, our intensity at closing the ball down makes us a far better team defensively than last season already. Which isn't a huge surprise since Yaya isn't just walking around in midfield anymore.
Some decent points to be fair.
How is it a 4-1-4-1? You have two inverted full backs holding the fort with a centre back as last man. Whatever way you want to look at it, a 3 man or 5 man or 4 man defence, the narrow nature of the defensive set up (full backs into a CM position) coupled with an extremely high line means the defence is prone to balls in behind.
I agree completely that the high pressure game and a better goalkeeper in Bravo will make you improve. The set up however isn't without its question marks. Sunderland really should have scored a couple against you and West Ham missed a lot of key players. Jury is still out - lets see how it works.Don't know who will step up instead of Fellaini if he's not fit.
Some say Herrera but I'm not too sure he's suited for nr. 6 position. He's not that good in taking the ball of opposition players and he fouls too much. Maybe in combination with Pogba it could be good but that would take Pogba's offensive capabilities since he would have to help Herrera defensively.
I think Morgan can do the job. Sure he was uninspiring last year but so was the majority of the team and look at them now.
Don't think Jose will go with 4-3-3 although a midfield of Morgan, Herrera and Pogba could be very good. Ibra in attack, Martial and Mickhi on the wings.
Thanks. I've always liked you.
We'll just agree to disagree after this one, but it feels like you're getting really confused between our shape with and without the ball, and the concept of movement as a team in general. The fullbacks don't spend the whole game narrow; they move inside when we've got the ball to allow Silva and De Bruyne to occupy space in dangerous areas further forward instead of coming and collecting the ball deeper. It's a simple numbers game to try and outnumber the opposition in the middle of the park to move the ball forward more effectively. It's the same for Fernandinho, he moves deeper to create a triangle with him and the centre backs to quickly pass it through the pressing forwards.
One thing you are right on is that the jury is still out. It will be for a good while. I question whether our back 5 are good enough at keeping the ball against sides with more urgency and aggressive pressing (our annual pasting off Liverpool must be due soon), and teams who can counter quickly could easily see some joy against us when we lose the ball and don't have time to readdress our shape. I just think overall we are looking at this in different ways so it's best to move on and avoid circles!I'm going to miss this Away on some nonsense team building event until late afternoon.My analysis won't be as thorough as the in-depth posts before me. The primary thesis of my argument is that early kick-offs can go to hell.
It's not socially acceptable to drink at 6:30am, meaning I'll have to down a few before I get to the sports bar. Bollocks.Pogba and Carrick would be perfect with Rooney sort of dropping deep if things are going rough.
This is exactly it, you have 3 at the back (with a defensive midfielder dropping deep without the ball) but its risky as you leave a fair bit of space when you do lose the ball.
Yep - a very high line pushing most the defence out to the midfield position with the ball. Lets see how that works, I can see that struggling against more sides than just a Klopp/L'pool type of play. Any route one team would have a field day too. Thing is, City are brilliant going forward so they should still end up winning most games. Its the big ones that make me curious however.
Thanks, you too. I agree that the oppositions are a tier below, but the team he's managing is also not in the same parish as Bayern or Barca.
Yes, he has Sane/Gundagon/Bravo at his disposal but I don't think that changes his set up. I'd be to surprised see Sane displace Nolito or Sterling straight away and Bravo is a like-for-like anyway. He'l be obliged to tinker somewhat without Augero but my general point re. him sticking to his primary system regardless of the opponent still stands (I mentioned he would have played the same side vs West Ham even if they had their players fit).
Certainly, we can confine to discuss the forthcoming Derby. I've given my reasons why the City defence is under the microscope and we can leave it there.
With the reasonable points you and @Manchester Dan have made - I wouldn't be surprised to see Rashford starting as a striker with Ibra in behind against you guys (if not from the beginning then from the 60 minute mark). I'd be more confident seeing pace down the middle against the current City set up. Bravo will have to be on point as a sweeper/keeper.United have twice as many players as City on international duty before the derby. I'm more worried about that than whether Aguero plays or not. Will be interesting to see how both teams set up. I'm hoping Mhki, Rashford and Lingard will start and the back four stays the same.
Would love to see:
Rashford
Martial Ibrahimovic Lingard
Pogba Mkhitaryan
Shaw Blind Bailly Valencia
De Gea
Subs: Romero, Rooney, Herrera, Fosu-Mensah, Smalling, Carrick, Darmian
I know it will never happen but City wouldn't be able to handle the pace and physicality of the attack and our defence should be solid as always. Plenty of goals in that lineup too.
Looking forward to it. Should be en emphatic 3-1 victory. (City will get the obligatory penalty).Last edited:
You're right. Doubt the ref will allow us to play with 12 players.
You make an excellent point, sir.Well,
Thought Id have a little browse on Bluemoon ahead of this game, they are very very confident about beating us.
They seem to think they are the best team in the league already and can turn up to OT and simply walk to victory which is a little bizarre, one poster thinks Shaw and Valencia lack pace.....
Anyway alot of them recon Gundogan and Sane are in for a start with Aguero out and a lot want to see KDB up top or Nolito as false 9 types. There is also this weird obsession they have with us parking the bus, not at OT, not with the player we have now.
I know it will be a tough game with lots of contention in the midfield but I cant see us parking the bus nor do I see us allowing them the space and freedom West Ham gave them.
Id like to see the following line up:
DDGThere is enough threat there to keep City very very busy and I cant see them having enough time and space to deal with that kind of onslaught, however I think we all know Rooney will start in the no.10.
Valencia-Bailly-Blind-Shaw
Fellaini-Pogba
Rashford-Mhkitaryan-Martial
Ibrahimovic
I think the challenge is keeping Rooney in with Mhki as Rooney simply wont be dropped as captain in the derby and has been involved in most of our goals so far this season.
How does everyone feel about the line-up from City with the addition of Gundogan or Sane? could be quite a team we face.
I think most people want to see that sort of line up or a 4-3-3 variation of it with those players but we all know it's not going to happen with Rooney still here.
LOL, I saw that too. Couldn't believe what i was reading TBH. Do any of these Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime ever watch football!!
Tony & Rojo had Sterling & KDB in their pockets last season at OT. Shaw is so many levels above Rojo & Tony looks a man possessed. Easy win for us 3 - 0.I think this game could pan out similar to the game we played against Chelsea in 14/15 season when they won the league.
Jose knew he would be up against a side who prefers possession based football, therefore, he allowed us to keep the ball and set up on the counter.
The team he put out against us in 14/15 was:
Courtois
Ivanovic Cahill Terry Azpilicueta
Zouma Matic
Oscar Fabregas Hazard
Drogba
Key changes:
- Put in two defensive midfielders
- Moved Fabregas further up because he obviously felt he wasn't defensive enough to play there, and that he'd be of more use further up, where he can provide that killer ball, in a game where he knew he wouldn't have much of the ball.
- Moved his number 10 out wide, although he had the freedom to drift in (Oscar created goal for Hazard from the middle of the pitch)
Two banks of four
I did post that I think Mourinho will go with a 433, but the more I think of it, the more I don't think he will. Two banks of 4, which is what it'll be when not in possession of the ball, is very hard to break down, if played correctly. Mourinho will want us to defend deep and narrow, as we have been doing so far this season, which will hopefully disallow City to play through the lines.
Key player
Having a player like Hazard was very important to the way Chelsea played against us a couple seasons ago. When set up on the counter, you need someone who has the ability to drive long distances with the ball. I think this is why it's important we play Martial. Probably hasn't been in the greatest of form since the start of the season, but his ability to run with the ball with such pace and power will be pivotal to hurting City on the counter.
De Gea
Valencia Bailly Blind Shaw
Carrick Schneiderlin
Rooney Pogba Martial
Ibrahimovic
Romero Smalling Herrera Mata Lingard Mkhitaryan Rashford
I think this will be their lineup; Bravo is not with Chile for personal reasons and will probably not be thrown into the derby. Gundogan and Sane are back however they have no fitness so will probably come from the bench, with Sane coming on it'll probably mean Nolito moving centrally depending on how Iheanacho is doing. Their defence looks pretty exposable tbqh, Stones helped us win the FA Cup Semi final, Otamendi is as rash as they come. Kolarov and Zabaleta could be made fools if we pick the right wide players.
Caballero
Zabaleta-Stones-Otamendi-Kolarov
Fernandinho
De Bruyne-----Silva
Sterling------------------------Nolito
IheanachoLast edited:I believe Valencia only lands back in Manchester the day before the game? this is a concern if true.
We will also miss Fellaini if he is injured (what a sentence to type out)
I would like Lingard to play. He usually goes up a level or two in big gamesValencia is a machine. He'll be fine.
Sorry fella, I have to disagree with you although all valid and reasonable points, a couple of mitigating factors.
1. Our squad, his squad now is definitely better than that Chelsea team in almost every area of the park.
2. You mention 1 key player for Chelsea in Hazard, well lucky for us we have possibly 3/4 players you could consider that contain as much attacking threat and could be considered key players in- Ibra, Pogba, Rashford and Martial. Also worth mentioning teams often set up to "stop Rooney" yep even now.
3. Our full backs are far more attacking than any other full backs in the league, Shaw is bordering on a defensive winger as is Valencia, although their outball or final pass is questionable they have far more ability than Chelseas full backs back then.
.4 He now manages Manchester United (Jose) and the level of technical and ball playing skill is far and way beyond what you would expect at a club like Chelsea, especially that team. When you look at the Midfield 2 in that Chelsea team there isnt much in terms of driving force and flair with the creative flair in the no.10 position. We have the drive, creative flair and goal threat in one player- Pogba (hence his huge fee). Allowing us to partner him with another under-rated but actually quite technical Fellaini.
5. You can not play park the bus at OT no matter who the opposition is, we didnt against Real Madrid in the CL and we didnt at Wembley vs Barca (peps) we will almost certainly look to take control of this game and cement our passing game, which hasnt received any plaudits despite being very impressive, second half vs Hull as a stand out. I challenge any team to dominate away from home the way we did. It was sublime.
6. Our defensive Performances have been incredibly underappreciated, Bailly will make a mistake at some point but at the moment he is a one man wrecking ball and let me tell you any opposing striker will be beaten to submission, if not they will have to out-think Blind, possible but the man is a walking Mensa candidate for defensive football.
7. Our defensive line- Previously under LVG we would play a very high line and rely on them to play balls through the midfield (much like City do) but now we play a deeper line, Blind and Bailly will benefit from more time and less energy consumed by simply running back. We will be very very difficult to break down this season- especially coming off a wonderful defensive record last season.
I have picked my post directly from the "How to beat a Pep Guardiola team" thread in the Newbies!
Score, 3-1 to United.Mourinho doesn't lose at home. Not with a fully motivated hungry side anyway.
We should be putting them away.0-0.
City will dominate possession but do nothing with it.De Gea
Valencia Bailly Blind Shaw
Schneiderlin Pogba
Rashford Mkhitaryan Rooney
Zlatan
Personally I would pick this team. Rooney at LW seems strange but he actually looked very good there against Hull, better than Martial. Rashford and Mkhitaryan deserve a start from their last performance alone and they bring added pace to the team.
Schneiderlin because Fellaini is injured and Valencia is tank he will want to play.
Fixed.
SAF played it against pre-Pep Barça in 2008 at OT and we won.
He didn't play it in either final against Pep and we got absolutely decimated.
We didn't play it against Madrid in the CL because they weren't as much of a threat (that was Jose's final year with the infighting in the squad) and were a counter attacking side under Jose themselves. Regardless of the still horrifically bad Nani decision, who went through in the tie?
We've also gone gung-ho against City in the past at OT and been absolutely destroyed 6-1.
When you play against Guardiola, it doesn't matter, you play park the bus because you're forced to, even though this City side is quite easily the weakest he's had they still dominate possession. It's not the greatest way to win a game but Mourinho is pragmatic and about results and if we need to park the bus and hit them on the counter then so be it.
You could equally say you don't park the bus at the Bernabeu if you're the Real Madrid manager but Jose has done that against Pep in the past so don't put it past him.
Personally I love counter attacking football and also hate the fact that Pep's games are always one sided possession wise so if we beat them it really doesn't matter how as long as we do.How bad is Miki's injuryDDG, Valencia, Bailly, Blind, Shaw, Pogba,Fellaini, Mkhitaryan,Martial, Lingard, Ibrahimovic.
We need Mkhi's high work rate and counter attacking ability more than Rooney's experience in this game. Lingard will offer better protection than Mata and also carry the counter attacking threat. We will more than likely sit in a 4-5-1 defensive shape, win the ball and counter with speed. I don't expect their untested back 3/4 to deal with our pace and power. Missing Aguero for them will be huge, and I am hopeful Valencia/Shaw can deal with their wingers. They beat them both for speed/strength/stamina.
The midfield battle will be key, if Pogba and Fellaini can keep hold of Silva/De bruyne we've got a great chance. Hopefully Mkhi will man mark Fernandinho to cut off the supply.
Hmmmm not sure I like the idea of that, the squad we have with the players in the positions and technical ability there is no reason as to why we shouldnt take the game to them and simply out-power their attempts to dominate the ball.
As you say this is Peps worst side by quite some margin and if we get ticking this could be one of Joses best sides hes had. I think we need to throw pragmatism away at this stage. If we lose Id rather we have a go at playing our game rather than do a West Ham and try and soak up the pressure as the risk is you lose the game in the first 20 mins.
We all hear about this pragmatic Jose that he defends to win but that simply isnt true, his Chelsea side that won the league attacked all teams and were extremely hard to break down, we have more attacking flair than those sides and therefore we should be looking to attack from the off. I dont care what Peps style is, he doesnt dominate from the off from reputation this is a new club, a new league and new tactics.
I say we attack them, dominate in the middle and attack down the flanks, there is no reason at all why we can not do that against this City side.
Not bad at all. He wants to play against Denmark so not expecting a lot of trouble.How bad is Miki's injury
CheersConsidering Martials poor form, I think this is most likely
Rashford on for Mata late on to stretch the defence. Unless Lingard is fit, in which case Lingard for Mata and Rashford for Rooney.
DDG
Valencia-Bailly-Blind-Shaw
Fellaini-Pogba
Mata-Rooney-Mkhi
Ibra
Gonna be a very tough game. Score draw is most likely I think, I think we have the best back line in the league but I still dont see a clean sheet against Nolito, KDB, Silv, Sterling, Aguero. Still think there defence is a bit suspect especially Stones at this point in time and I think Ibra has a good chance of bullying him a bit. 2-2 is my best guess, but as a Utd fan im saying 2-1 to us!
Aguero won't be playing.- Status
Man of the Match
Runners-up
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14%
Marcus Rashford
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13%
Marouane Fellaini
-
12%
Eric Bailly
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10%
Antonio Valencia
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8%
Luke Shaw
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8%
Wayne Rooney
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7%
Zlatan Ibrahimovic
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4%
David de Gea
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1%
Paul Pogba
-
1%
Daley Blind
Player Ratings
Total Average Rating
Highest Rated Player
Lowest Rated Player
Compiled from 744 ratings.
Score Predictions
793,61,221
- Man Utd win
- Man City win
- Draw
Detailed Results
- 32% Man Utd 2:1 Man City
- 13% Man Utd 2:0 Man City
- 12% Man Utd 1:1 Man City
- 10% Man Utd 1:0 Man City
- 8% Man Utd 3:1 Man City
- 4% Man Utd 0:0 Man City
- 4% Man Utd 3:2 Man City
- 3% Man Utd 2:2 Man City
- 3% Man Utd 1:2 Man City
- 3% Man Utd 3:0 Man City
- 2% Man Utd 5:0 Man City
- 1% Man Utd 1:3 Man City
- 1% Man Utd 4:1 Man City
- 1% Man Utd 0:2 Man City
- 0% Man Utd 0:5 Man City
- 0% Man Utd 2:3 Man City
- 0% Man Utd 4:2 Man City
- 0% Man Utd 0:1 Man City
- 0% Man Utd 0:3 Man City
- 0% Man Utd 5:1 Man City
- 0% Man Utd 5:4 Man City
- 0% Man Utd 4:0 Man City
- 0% Man Utd 1:4 Man City
- 0% Man Utd 0:4 Man City
- 0% Man Utd 3:3 Man City
- 0% Man Utd 5:5 Man City
Match Stats
- Man Utd
- Man City
- Possession
- 40% 60%
- Shots
- 14 18
- Shots on Target
- 3 6
- Corners
- 4 4
- Fouls
- 15 10
Referee
Mark Clattenburg
Man Utd Lineup
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replaced by Anthony Martial
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replaced by Marcus Rashford
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replaced by Ander Herrera
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