And which of the CBs does that? If they don't do that consistently it indeed is that easy.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss three 1-1 draws.
The first got us knocked out of the FA Cup, the next puts us in a good position in our Round of 16 Europa League game, and the latest was an actual decent performance against Arsenal at Old Trafford.
All hopes for the season now rest on the Europa League - does Amorim have the squad to win it?
It is amazing that there are people who watch us week in week out that believe us to be a top 6 team. There has been much talk about formations and tactics but any formation/tactic will look incompetent if the players are unable to score goals. Our biggest problem is that we have somehow managed to assemble the worst bunch of attackers in the history of our club.
Looking at the non-penalty expected goal per 90 (NpxG90) understat data for this EPL season looks for grim readings:
(stats for players who have at least 5 appearances and at least 300 minutes played)
TLDR: Our attack is relegation level.
Looking at the non-penalty expected goal per 90 (NpxG90) understat data for this EPL season looks for grim readings:
(stats for players who have at least 5 appearances and at least 300 minutes played)
| Name | Rank(All PL) | Rank (Bottom Half) | Rank(Bottom 5) | Rank (Bottom 3) | NPxG90 | Expected Goals | Goals |
| Garnacho | 22nd | 7th | 1st | 1st | 0.48 | 7.47 | 3 |
| Zirkzee | 37th | 14th | 6th | 6th | 0.40 | 4.13 | 3 |
| Fernandes | 73rd | 30th | 18th | 11th | 0.26 | 8.17 | 5 |
| Diallo | 87nd | 36th | 22nd | 14th | 0.23 | 4.13 | 6 |
| Hojlund | 104th | 47nd | 30th | 20th | 0.19 | 2.62 | 2 |
| Yoro | 107th | 49th | 31st | 21st | 0.19 | 1.13 | 0 |
| Rashford | 109th | 50th | 32nd | 22nd | 0.18 | 2.12 | 4 |
| Casemiro | 127th | 60th | 38th | 27th | 0.14 | 1.49 | 1 |
| de Ligt | 171nd | 80th | 50th | 32nd | 0.09 | 1.66 | 1 |
| Martinez | 180th | 88th | 54th | 36th | 0.09 | 1.69 | 2 |
| Dalot | 214th | 104 | 65th | 42nd | 0.06 | 1.42 | 0 |
| Maguire | 223rd | 106 | 67th | 44th | 0.06 | 0.73 | 0 |
| Mainoo | 267nd | 133 | 81st | 55th | 0.03 | 0.48 | 0 |
| Eriksen | 290th | 145 | 87th | 60th | 0.02 | 0.16 | 1 |
| Ugarte | 292th | 146 | 88th | 61st | 0.02 | 0.27 | 0 |
| Mazraoui | 300th | 152 | 92nd | 63rd | 0.02 | 0.44 | 0 |
TLDR: Our attack is relegation level.
Yoro can do it and I have seen Mazroui do it too.
Which kind of confirms my point. They can do it, but it doesn't happen regularly enough to be a key factor.
But that can change and be a way to fix that easy way to shut down United, I agree with you on that.
That would require some coaching which is apparently not a thing that United head coaches are supposed to do.
Thats my point, if people are going to say I heard Hoddle say how easy it is so it must be easy... you can say that about any team.
Its easy to play City... low block and counter... when we know in reality its not all that simple is it?
It drives me mad the way people talk down the great man just to try to defend their preferred manager of the week. People have done this with every single post SAF manager. It’s madness.
It's still 11 vs 11 , and when that happens a CB steps into midfield to press the free man.
Plus the wing backs are usually powerful runners in this system so should be able to break past the winger, while we still have an extra centreback and defensive midfielder there to defend the transition if possession is lost.
It's teething problems that exaggerate the weaknesses of the system. Plus not being able to finish your chances brings more scrutiny on the rest of it..
Exactly, its not that simple like people make it out to be... otherwise teams would have done that to Sporting teams.
Also... what people dont realise, managers dont mind teams going wide, what they going to do cross it into the box with 3 CB's with no one in the box because the wingers are wide?
I get it.. when a team is playing badly... especially with United you say negatives thing in the media and United fans lap it up thinking omg its that easy to play against us... Its what sells right?
We keep saying media love selling headlines, well our fans love clicking on it and encourage it.
Big big difference if De Ligt or Stones steps into midfield. Playing our 3 CBs and you risk to expose yourself.
They did it very well against Liverpool.
But in United’s case it is that simple as it is happening week after week and the coaching team seemingly don’t have an answer to it.
Okay yeah you are right... its the formation that is the issue, teams have worked out how to play it because its simple..
We would look much different with 4 at the back.. oh wait... we looked just as bad in the last year without wing backs.
Just a reminder that the system can work, even against the best teams. The issue is the erratic performance levels of the team. Perhaps Amorim has tweaked something since this game, and injuries have forced changes that even we can see.
But Amorim said it himself, all this criticism and analysing on the issues, he already sees it himself. We just have to trust that he can sort the issues, but if he recognises them then that is half the battle. Ten Hag did nothing about our issues, whereas I can see Amorim reacting in game to try to fix things that aren’t working. All we can do is have a bit of trust in the guy.
But Amorim said it himself, all this criticism and analysing on the issues, he already sees it himself. We just have to trust that he can sort the issues, but if he recognises them then that is half the battle. Ten Hag did nothing about our issues, whereas I can see Amorim reacting in game to try to fix things that aren’t working. All we can do is have a bit of trust in the guy.
It's called coaching. Players don't just do things or not do things. The manager needs to coach them to do it.
They did and they didn't, Liverpool had 20 shots on goal so while it appeared we played well and we did there were still a lot of gaps that Liverpool exploited and could and probably should have scored more
The system can definitely work. I think we lack a lot for habits like receiving the ball and immediately looking to turn and play a forward pass. Too much controlling the ball with the players back to goal and then labouring for a side ways pass, whether it's Mainoo or Hojlund.
We are lethargic in the system which needs addressing. I back Amorim to get it right with them but it's just frustrating it's taking a long time.
In all fairness this is often misconstrued as this. I've more often than not seen it used in the context of
"if the greatest ever struggled initially and needed time to turn the club, culture and results around, then it's reasonable that less managers may also have a difficult start"
I know it's tempting to take this on as "any manager can be saf, if given the time"
But that really isn't how I see it framed. I also see a player like Garnacho get compared to Ronaldo in a similar way - if Ronaldo needed time to get going and was one of the greatest ever, it isn't damning on Garna that he has levels to go up, given his age"
It's not saying he'll be as good as Ronaldo or even remotely close. It's saying that if the nest need time then so do the rest.
Obviously you can't just blindly apply this. All the time and support in the world won't see me become a Manchester United player.
But I do understand the point. As does the great man himself. Which is why he told the crowd to back the new manager and give them time during his leaving speech.
But football online is incredibly binary. Someone is good or they're terrible. Just look at how angry, personal and aggressive so many people are when someone makes a mistake. Mainoo getting called out, Garnacho getting called out, managers getting a month two before kick offs start happening.
When fans say "we need to be ruthless and it's going to take time" I really feel like they mean "make decisions that personally make me happy and get things sorted within 5 games"
I've seen post after post after post which state the project will need "time". Time in this sense means 3-5 Windows and likely 18 months - 3/4 years.
This is time the greatest manager ever needed to overhaul the club. If it took him a few years, why is a rookie from Portugal that's delaying with a completely different beast in how football is now compared to the 80s,gping to have it all sorted within a couple of months of coming in mid season?
That doesn't mean he's "the guy". It doesn't mean he'll get anywhere close to what SAF achieved or what he was capable of. It means it's not unreasonable that he may need longer than he's had before the support gets pulled right from beneath his feet.
That goes for anyone. I don't believe there is a single manager in world football who would come in now and achieve a 75% win rate until the end of the season. Whoever "the guy" is, they're going to need some time.
Our club's history and success literally tells this story and the likeness is drawn because when fans now say that he's not done it fast enough, they also said the exact same thing before
If I you ask me to get my vw to do 0-100 in 2 seconds and I say it can't, and point out that even a porsche needs 3 seconds and so it's not a reasonable demand, I wouldn't expect you to then start arguing that I'm saying the two cars are the same because I'm not. I hsit don't think it's sensible to expect worse things to achieve faster and better results than better things.
I know I've over explained this but I just see this exact argument so many times that I think people really miss the point entirely a lot of time.
We're so up the creek that this is far beyond a guy coming in, making a few tactical changes and boom, we're back fighting for top 4. I have no idea if Amorim is the guy but I do know the size of the task he has to undertake isn't too far off what Fergoe had. So I have zero anticipation that Amorim can turn it around in a few months, I just don't think anyone can, Fergie couldn't and he's the best to ever do it IMO. The expectation on Amorim is not the same Moyes. It can't be. Amorim has inherited the worst team, situation and circumstance of any United manager in the last 40 years. Few months mid season simply won't cut it.
This is a massive issue at the moment. The instant some of our players do it we suddenly look dangerous. I can't remember which game it was recently but I think Amad came on mid way through the second half and one of the first things he did was allow the ball to roll across his body as he sold his player a dummy and magically he broke into space and had the opposition in disarray.
You could see it in the RM/City game the other day. Players who were confident taking the ball across their body and facing forwards with it to either break into space or immediately set a teammate away.
When any pressure results in your players just knocking it backwards you are so easy to play against. The thing players hate most is facing up to a player running at them. They can see behind you and you can't. They are moving at a higher pace so its easier for them to go past you. You don't know what your players are doing behind you. Its vital.
100% this. Great post. Saying 'even the greatest' need to be given time doesn't mean our current boss is the best. But if we don't give him (or the any of our bosses) at least a reasonable amount of time we'll never know.
And that's where there is an issue, Fergie did turn things around in a few months, it's exactly what he did. People are misrepresenting his story to write a totally different one. Also if we use United history as a template then the two best managers Sir Matt Busby and Sir Alex Ferguson did very well during their first couple of seasons, Busby finished 4th in the North League table in 45-46 and 2nd in the First Division in 46-47. SAF took over United as 19th but ended the first season at 12th and followed with a 2nd rank finish. The other successful manager is Mangnall who may fit with the narrative that it takes time because while United did better under him from day one, the team only got promoted after 2 or 3 seasons.
None of the other managers that got 3, 4 or 5 seasons turned things around in any way that would be deemed successful. United history shows that great managers have an immediate impact, that's what it shows. Any other claims goes against United history. The great managers had an immediate impact and the middling to good managers mainly struggled early, some eventually turned things around and others didn't.
It’s only been three months. Any talk by pundits or fans of sacking Amorim is madness.
Other posters have made the but it’s worth repeating…our finishing has been horrendous. The Garnacho point blank miss v Spurs ten years over the crossbar is excusable. We’ve had others like that this season that contributed to dropped points and us being in the relegation conversation even we are undoubtedly clear of being dragged into 17th place at season’s end.
Other posters have made the but it’s worth repeating…our finishing has been horrendous. The Garnacho point blank miss v Spurs ten years over the crossbar is excusable. We’ve had others like that this season that contributed to dropped points and us being in the relegation conversation even we are undoubtedly clear of being dragged into 17th place at season’s end.
Yeah a lot is made of the formation, what players we need to make it work and so on. I‘m not buying it either.
I think it is a good formation, but making it work depends mostly on workrate and following instructions. We have had a lot of games to work on it and are stuck at level zombie.
The narrative that we need new better players to not be in a relegation scrap is likewise bollocks.
Amorim needs to change and improve some things, and is doing that no doubt.
Didn't read the whole thread obviously but I think people are underestimating the effect the whole situation around the club has on the team.
"People are losing their jobs. Of course, that feeling of saving their job is hard to have that feeling and that affects the environment, so I think we cannot ignore it. We acknowledge that problem and I want to say that the responsible (people) is the first team. We have to change that. To change that the first part what we should do is to win against Tottenham. That is the small step to try to help these people, to try not to push the prices of the tickets higher. We are responsible for that."
Crazy quotes, team is burdened with the all round shitshow at the club, the pressure must be off the charts for a mostly young team.
"I think it’s really important for us in the first team, coaches and players, not to ignore that. People are losing their jobs, so we have to acknowledge that."
"People are losing their jobs. Of course, that feeling of saving their job is hard to have that feeling and that affects the environment, so I think we cannot ignore it. We acknowledge that problem and I want to say that the responsible (people) is the first team. We have to change that. To change that the first part what we should do is to win against Tottenham. That is the small step to try to help these people, to try not to push the prices of the tickets higher. We are responsible for that."
Crazy quotes, team is burdened with the all round shitshow at the club, the pressure must be off the charts for a mostly young team.
"I think it’s really important for us in the first team, coaches and players, not to ignore that. People are losing their jobs, so we have to acknowledge that."
The Internet and social media has taken out all nuance from football analysis on managers and teams etc. whole lot of binaries.
I remember watching the premier league in the 90s as a kid and the only analysis that came from pundits on television or newspaper sports columnists were no where near as one-dimensional.
I remember watching the premier league in the 90s as a kid and the only analysis that came from pundits on television or newspaper sports columnists were no where near as one-dimensional.
What do you mean by one-dimensional?
The cb‘s have to recognize when to step up, and the 10‘s have to track back fast in transitions.
We looked bad last year due to the suicidal one man midfield ETH played! Funny how we looked a million times better when Ruud tightened the midfield up.
It is the same issue: players not following instructions, and last year we did not have enough fit players on the pitch.
No coach says to his players: ‚let‘s play with a high press and low backline, leave the midfield wide open‘.
This has been an issue for years and years honestly, and part of it is the nature of the midfielders we've had and part of it is simply poor habits. Mainoo is someone that when he first debuted was always trying to take the ball on the half turn and go, yet now he basically plays as a backboard. Bruno WANTS to be progressive but his technical limitations mean he's not going to be very good at it either unless he's in acres of space.
The atmosphere at the club MUST be toxic, the culture stinks & I hope Amorim gets the time to fix it, how many times have we seen similar stories like this?
To be honest its easy to come in smiling when you're playing on the pitch. Antony was never given a look in this season which I don't think is a toxicity issue.
Exactly his system may have started as 442 but in game switches to 433, 451, 4231all the time.
Please can you expand on what you mean by this. I would have thought that we get infinitely more analysis than we used to get, with more cameras and data and whatnot; but I'm interested in what you have to say and would like to hear more; thanks.
Standard of punditry is miles better now than the 90s?
Apparently sound of training improved vastly recently, happy days just kidding
The culture stinks and no doubt it sucks being a United player in the a team thats performing to relegation standard, but let's not forget Antony spent the last 18 months or so dealing with his own shit that was to some degree his own fault.
I am not saying that Amorim is going to turn it around but he needs at least a pre season and some better players, if it doesn't work by November or at least show some form of progress then the discussion on changing could start.
Fergie is and will always be the greatest manager of all time but his first squad did contain:
Gordon Strachan
Paul McGrath
Bryan Robson
Norman Whiteside
Frank Stapleton
These are far better player than we have now, take nothing away from what Fergie achieved, but how many of our players are on the level of some of these?
This is the worst squad we have had in certainly the PL area, cannot comment past then, with the injury to Amad, Garnacho is our best attacker, every time he gets in front of goal it's more like a rugby conversion than a shot.
The truth is we are so far off it, no one is waving a magic wand and turning us around, it is going to be sh1t before it gets better, at least let the man who has seen these players for what they truly are and won't be fooled by the time pre season comes around shift some on.
If he doesn't work at least he will have started the work for the next manager.
You know what? I actually agree with you on something for once
When put in perspective in Antony’s case specifically, it is his own fault.
But there has been other examples of players going elsewhere and excelling, McTominay being the most recent example, not all do well of course, but the atmosphere must be pretty rancid.
Players aren't happy, staff aren't happy, coaches aren't happy, fans aren't happy. The club is shit. The only people smiling are those inbred American scumbag cnuts