Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Raoul]

My response was to a point raised about how difficult it was to see a two state solution now.

No it isn't. It's easy. It can be done over the weekend.

BUT and this was my point the one country that can do it doesn't give a damn. Namely the USA.

Parties are not relevant. USA will negotiate with whoever it sees fit. They could even force PA and Hamas around the table. And create a new party. It's not as hard as being made out.

So in conclusion no it's not hard. The answer is right in front of us. We seem to agree though USA don't give a feck.

There is no political will in the US to do what you’re describing. Without political will to take action, all you’re left with is pie in the sky fanaticism.

In order for there to be political will, the people would have to demand their politicians, under threat of voting them out of office, enact a certain policy about Israel. That doesn’t exist, so no action will be taken just as no action will be taken on any number of other issues from solving homelessness, the opioid epidemic, guns, and every other thing that could happen if politicians agreed it should.

 

[africanspur]

If we hide history then we will never have peace

Undoubtedly when some Palestinians inevitably explodes at stuff like this in the future, history will only start from that day and the context of stuff like this will disappear.

They will be classed as crazy nationalists or Jihadis, because it's more comforting to frame them in that way, as crazed animals, as opposed to trying to consider what might lead people to such actions and the complicity of our own governments in this.

Unfortunately, as far as the reality goes, such is life. Now ethnic cleansing is being discussed not in hushed tones by fringe extremists but by actual people in government and by people on here. The world's only superpower is firmly in one corner and mostly supported mostly by the only other military relevant members of NATO. People justify atrocity after atrocity, by either screaming Hamas or comparing to Iran or China.

What an awful tragedy and western governments, it must be said again and again, are fecking hypocrites.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

That’s not a realistic solution though as It’s completely dead in the water.

Israel have been attacking Palestinians way before Hammas so you are right here, a two state solution will never happen.

 

[JagUTD]

If that quote was said but referencing Jews or Israel instead of Palestine there very likely would be bans id imagine. Double standards.

I don't think that's true tbh. One thing the admin have done well in this thread is allow discussion, even if it's uncomfortable. Bar a few newbies who went out in a blaze of glory, only one person has been banned. Even then it was temporary.

 

[owlo]

There is no political will in the US to do what you’re describing. Without political will to take action, all you’re left with is pie in the sky fanaticism.

In order for there to be political will, the people would have to demand their politicians, under threat of voting them out of office, enact a certain policy about Israel. That doesn’t exist, so no action will be taken just as no action will be taken on any number of other issues from solving homelessness, the opioid epidemic, guns, and every other thing that could happen if politicians agreed it should.

Not even sure if it’s a matter of political will at this point. It’d be suicidal policy on a strategic level to give an inch now. It would be telling terrorists (and Iran) around the world, that if you hurt us or our allies badly enough, we will buckle and give you what you want.

Congress and Trump would skin him alive, along with the military and every security analyst in the US. And Israel would tell hi to shove it where the sun don’t shine anyway.

Israel have been attacking Palestinians way before Hammas so you are right here, a two state solution will never happen.

In 2000, they were offered a 2 state solution, and in 2001 Hamas tried to kill me. They’ve been going a while. There’s been mistakes on both sides regarding Palestinian statehood, but it’s only really deteriorated in modern times.

 

[africanspur]

The explanations are that the USA provide almost unlimited military, logistic, diplomatic and moral support. And some more unpleasant stuff regarding sentiment towards Arabs that I can't be bothered to go into right now.

 

[owlo]

I don't think that's true tbh. One thing the admin have done well in this thread is allow discussion, even if it's uncomfortable. Bar a few newbies who went out in a blaze of glory, only one person has been banned. Even then it was temporary.

I mean, I said it myself that Jews should have gone to Alberta instead of Israel as their homeland haha. People simply misquote to their own end. I referenced that Jews should have ceded it to pan-Palestinians long ago in practically the same sentence. People ignore it intentionally.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

In 2000, they were offered a 2 state solution, and in 2001 Hamas tried to kill me. They’ve been going a while. There’s been mistakes on both sides regarding Palestinian statehood, but it’s only really deteriorated in modern times.

Sorry that happened to you.

However, you can see why Palestine don't trust the Israeli with regards to a two state solution. They simply don't believe Israel wasn't peace and instead want ethnic cleansing. You don't have to look far too see why.

 

[owlo]

Undoubtedly when some Palestinians inevitably explodes at stuff like this in the future, history will only start from that day and the context of stuff like this will disappear.

They will be classed as crazy nationalists or Jihadis, because it's more comforting to frame them in that way, as crazed animals, as opposed to trying to consider what might lead people to such actions and the complicity of our own governments in this.

Unfortunately, as far as the reality goes, such is life. Now ethnic cleansing is being discussed not in hushed tones by fringe extremists but by actual people in government and by people on here. The world's only superpower is firmly in one corner and mostly supported mostly by the only other military relevant members of NATO. People justify atrocity after atrocity, by either screaming Hamas or comparing to Iran or China.

What an awful tragedy and western governments, it must be said again and again, are fecking hypocrites.

Do you think it’s a terrible idea compared to realistic alternatives? Say, if the Palestinians were moved to Crete and given a state there. (I know that it can’t be actual Crete, but there are plenty of islands of similar sizes without the people)

 

[Roane]

That’s not a realistic solution though as It’s completely dead in the water.



The US can’t send signals to terrorists around the world that actions like Hamas brings them to the table. It only negotiates with terrorists in extremis, when it’s in its own benefit. There’s no chance that it’s in their interests that this conflict leads to a Palestinian state now.

Even if it did, right now Israel would just tell it to feck off. It can’t even negotiate a ceasefire from Gallant in this moment.

And even if they didn’t tell them to feck off, and decent terms were offered like were to Arafat, Iran would never let it happen, so Hamas would tell them to feck off because the offer isn’t good enough.

Its impossible.

Let's be honest for a second. You're building up Israel as if it's, as we say on the streets, "Ten men". And quite frankly it isn't. It's the bully in school who thinks he iss "hard" when he is with his mates but crys like a little biatch when caught alone.

Similarly Iran is made to be this bad monster but is more like the meme of a little kitten looking like a tiger in the mirror.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt considering you live in Israel and are despondent with what's been going on over the years, truly have sympathies from me.

However, and I'm being truly honest here, part of me does wonder (based on your other posts) if you've picked a side and are being careful to make your points so as not to get banned but show support to "your side". And I don't think I'm alone based on some of the responses to your posts.

 

[Roane]

There is no political will in the US to do what you’re describing. Without political will to take action, all you’re left with is pie in the sky fanaticism.

In order for there to be political will, the people would have to demand their politicians, under threat of voting them out of office, enact a certain policy about Israel. That doesn’t exist, so no action will be taken just as no action will be taken on any number of other issues from solving homelessness, the opioid epidemic, guns, and every other thing that could happen if politicians agreed it should.

Again. There is no will agreed. Makes the USA bigger cnuts.

However it is not hard IF there was a will. Which I made clear when addressing the points you and owlo made.

People don't have a say. It's political and the politicians can easily take the populace with them. See the language used and ease of policy with Ukraine. Basically if they (Arabs) were like "us" it would be solved literally overnight

 

[owlo]

Sorry that happened to you.

Thanks. It’s a rational response to oppression as many have rightly pointed out on here. I just wanted to say this situation is worse not better now, Israel is a worse place than it was back then too. (In opinions and hatred to Palestinians). Back then we kids in the centre had a rabbi and a colonel basically explaining to us how they were human just like us and driven to this hatred and we cant let that hatred define us back forever. (Even if we would for a while, we lost our first girlfriends etc there) - the response now is way more visceral and hopeless.

 

[Revan]

The US can’t send signals to terrorists around the world that actions like Hamas brings them to the table. It only negotiates with terrorists in extremis, when it’s in its own benefit. There’s no chance that it’s in their interests that this conflict leads to a Palestinian state now.

Even if it did, right now Israel would just tell it to feck off. It can’t even negotiate a ceasefire from Gallant in this moment.

And even if they didn’t tell them to feck off, and decent terms were offered like were to Arafat, Iran would never let it happen, so Hamas would tell them to feck off because the offer isn’t good enough.

Its impossible.

You are getting too much stick here, but unfortunately, the truth is what you are saying.

Arafat/Palestinians got offered a terrific deal in 2000 which they rejected. Since then, Hamas controls Gaza who are far less interested in peace.

Israel on the other hand, got from left wing/moderates like Perez to much more nationalist prime ministers like Sharon and Netanyahu. Neither of which had any interest in a two-state solution and increased the presence of settlers there.

Essentially, no one relevant is determined to reach a compromise that gives peace. The two-state solution at this stage is a meme, that people mention when stuff goes bad, but that has no chance of being implemented.

 

[Raoul]

Not even sure if it’s a matter of political will at this point. It’d be suicidal policy on a strategic level to give an inch now. It would be telling terrorists (and Iran) around the world, that if you hurt us or our allies badly enough, we will buckle and give you what you want.

Congress and Trump would skin him alive, along with the military and every security analyst in the US. And Israel would tell hi to shove it where the sun don’t shine anyway.



In 2000, they were offered a 2 state solution, and in 2001 Hamas tried to kill me. They’ve been going a while. There’s been mistakes on both sides regarding Palestinian statehood, but it’s only really deteriorated in modern times.

It could’ve happened during the latter part of the Arafat era but once Hamas and Netanyahu entered the process, both sides became increasingly securitized and prone to their own extremist factions. Will be interesting to see how things unfold after Hamas is out of the picture.

 

[whitbyviking]

Guy might be a vet. Britain lost 70k civilians, germany lost millions, therefore Britain should have done a ceasefire as it wasn’t a just war but rather genocide. Part of the larger ‘innocents die in war, you guys have no idea how war works or what a war crime is’ overarching argument going about the last few days.

Not sure if you’re being ironic here but them statistics you used are terrible. Nazi Germany killed an estimated 11m European civilians in WW2. There were an estimated 15-20m European citizens killed in total and more than double that worldwide, due to a war Germany started. Britain came to the aid of their European allies and were fighting as part of an alliance, this was not a war between Germany and Britain therefore your numbers are misleading in this context. Should the allies have firebombed Germany? No in my opinion, it was unnecessary. Was it the worst action in WW2, again no, not by a long long way.

Apologies for digressing somewhat but that comparison to the situation in Israel/Gaza was terrible.

 

[owlo]

Let's be honest for a second. You're building up Israel as if it's, as we say on the streets, "Ten men". And quite frankly it isn't. It's the bully in school who thinks he iss "hard" when he is with his mates but crys like a little biatch when caught alone.

Similarly Iran is made to be this bad monster but is more like the meme of a little kitten looking like a tiger in the mirror.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt considering you live in Israel and are despondent with what's been going on over the years, truly have sympathies from me.

However, and I'm being truly honest here, part of me does wonder (based on your other posts) if you've picked a side and are being careful to make your points so as not to get banned but show support to "your side". And I don't think I'm alone based on some of the responses to your posts.

Nah if you think the US could make Israel cancel its war right now and give the Palestinians a state instead, you’re just plain wrong. They would tell them to get lost.

And no, it’s just how I feel about the whole thing. I’m not particularly guarded in articulating my opinions, even if they might be wrong. If I wanted Palestinian or enjoyed civcas I’d just say so. But I don’t , I think it’s horrifying and sad. I’m not even watching any videos from this conflict.

 

[Roane]

Do you think it’s a terrible idea compared to realistic alternatives? Say, if the Palestinians were moved to Crete and given a state there. (I know that it can’t be actual Crete, but there are plenty of islands of similar sizes without the people)

It's a terrible argument based solely on your own posts.

What about Iran? What about it's proxies? Points you've raised to suggest no chance of 2 state solutions etc.

How about give it all to the Palestinians and set up Israel elsewhere where it is safer?

 

[owlo]

Not sure if you’re being ironic here but them statistics you used are terrible. Nazi Germany killed an estimated 11m European civilians in WW2. There were an estimated 15-20m European citizens killed in total and more than double that worldwide, due to a war Germany started. Britain came to the aid of their European allies and were fighting as part of an alliance, this was not a war between Germany and Britain therefore your numbers are misleading in this context. Should the allies have firebombed Germany? No in my opinion, it was unnecessary. Was it the worst action in WW2, again no, not by a long long way.

Apologies for digressing somewhat but that comparison to the situation in Israel/Gaza was terrible.

I clarified In posts after. It wasnt my opinion, but one circulating widely in veteran communities in the US/UK. A herd mentality type argument which he probably picked up on as he was a vet, then changed to his own needs.

 

[JagUTD]

I mean, I said it myself that Jews should have gone to Alberta instead of Israel as their homeland haha. People simply misquote to their own end. I referenced that Jews should have ceded it to pan-Palestinians long ago in practically the same sentence. People ignore it intentionally.

I get it. I'm sure they do as well but it's a very sensitive topic and people aren't ready to accept that if the one state or two state options are no longer viable, we are in uncharted territory.

 

[Giggsyking]

I deleted the tweet, think it belongs to the sport/ bundesliga section.

 

[Roane]

Nah if you think the US could make Israel cancel its war right now and give the Palestinians a state instead, you’re just plain wrong. They would tell them to get lost.

And no, it’s just how I feel about the whole thing. I’m not particularly guarded in articulating my opinions, even if they might be wrong. If I wanted Palestinian or enjoyed civcas I’d just say so. But I don’t , I think it’s horrifying and sad. I’m not even watching any videos from this conflict.

As I said you have my sympathies, genuinely and I will leave that point/discussion alone going forward.

The Israel point is being overstated though. Israel isn't the power it's being made out to be.

One thing I've noticed over the years is Britain's bitterness towards Israel. It's their child being raised by USA. Same USA who initially was a hurdle for Israel. Just subtle language where on the face of it Britain supports Israel but it isn't heartfelt. For me even BBC not using certain language and Wembley not being lit is suggestive of that.

America however is the step father who has adopted the child and over compensates to show it's love. Should that love be taken away Israel is finished.

 

[owlo]

It's a terrible argument based solely on your own posts.

What about Iran? What about it's proxies? Points you've raised to suggest no chance of 2 state solutions etc.

How about give it all to the Palestinians and set up Israel elsewhere where it is safer?

Hell yea. Give me a magic wand or tardis and let me move them Jews to Crete or Alberta. Unfortunately they’ve built a whole damn country full of infrastructure there over 80 years, so are stuck there. And they can afford reparations that the Palestinians couldn’t. There’s no way to move them now they are so entrenched. So it’s simply easier to move the Palestinians.

Honestly would have been the best thing for a secular Jewish state without religious dominance. They’d be no room for cretins like Bibi or Smotrich either who just feed off the hate and fear. A few nukes in case of another holocaust and they’d barely need to spend on a military too.

If I could (and could move the infrastructure), I’d move them right now for you. Probably accidentally drop the politicians in the sea along the way.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

 

[Kaos]

I'm sorry, I'm a little baffled. Are we just accepting ethnic cleansing to be a palatable solution now? No putting pressure on the Israelis to stop occupying and oppressing the Palestinian people? No forcing Israel to declare borders? All of that is off the cards now?

So our only realistic solution is essentially to 'from the river to the sea' the Palestinian people?

If so then I don't really know what to say.

 

[owlo]

As I said you have my sympathies, genuinely and I will leave that point/discussion alone going forward.

The Israel point is being overstated though. Israel isn't the power it's being made out to be.

One thing I've noticed over the years is Britain's bitterness towards Israel. It's their child being raised by USA. Same USA who initially was a hurdle for Israel. Just subtle language where on the face of it Britain supports Israel but it isn't heartfelt. For me even BBC not using certain language and Wembley not being lit is suggestive of that.

America however is the step father who has adopted the child and over compensates to show it's love. Should that love be taken away Israel is finished.

Fair enough, but I think you’re underestimating the power of a state. I wrote a paper long ago on how hard it was to get sovereign debt out of nations (an economics history and law paper about Weimar that flourished somewhat. It was cool, the US basically ended up paying reparations to Germany. ) and it’s virtually impossible to even make small Latin American states do what you want them to do, even with money or drugs etc. As an example I used, the US has been trying to coerse in the war on drugs for decades, and often these tiny nations would just tell them to feck off. They don’t really have an option, and that’s even without the whole unique thing about Israel, and how central to its existence two states is. There’s very few legal or economics reasons that can force a states hand.

If the USA stopped, the president would probably just be impeached. It’s too important strategically and geopolitically.

 

[owlo]

Speechless. They are turning Gaza into Grozny, I’m sure I said they won’t do that, but now I fear the worst is to come.

 

[JagUTD]

As I said you have my sympathies, genuinely and I will leave that point/discussion alone going forward.

The Israel point is being overstated though. Israel isn't the power it's being made out to be.

One thing I've noticed over the years is Britain's bitterness towards Israel. It's their child being raised by USA. Same USA who initially was a hurdle for Israel. Just subtle language where on the face of it Britain supports Israel but it isn't heartfelt. For me even BBC not using certain language and Wembley not being lit is suggestive of that.

America however is the step father who has adopted the child and over compensates to show it's love. Should that love be taken away Israel is finished.

At State level Britains support for Israel is very strong. What you are seeing is the BBC and other entities that represent the nation trying to be impartial.

 

[Revan]

The Israel point is being overstated though. Israel isn't the power it's being made out to be.

Schrondinger’s Israel.

The country who is not that strong, but at the same time beat Arabs in wars 3 times (and Egypt in another) while barely taking a hit in the last three wars. The not that strong country who also has nukes and probably the second best Air Force in the world. The not that strong country, but still Arabs celebrate the last war, which they heavily lost, but didn’t lose as bad as the one before that.

How many times Israel has to defeat Arabs in war before people actually realize that a) Israel is actually very strong and b) you cannot solve the problems with Israel by force? To be fair, most of Arab countries have understood that but comments like ‘Israel is not that strong military’ are still omnipresent.

 

[Ted Lasso]

I'm sorry, I'm a little baffled. Are we just accepting ethnic cleansing to be a palatable solution now?

History says countries with power and financial backing find it both palatable, effective and forgettable ways of carrying out their business.

 

[That_Bloke]

You are getting too much stick here, but unfortunately, the truth is what you are saying.

Arafat/Palestinians got offered a terrific deal in 2000 which they rejected. Since then, Hamas controls Gaza who are far less interested in peace.

Israel on the other hand, got from left wing/moderates like Perez to much more nationalist prime ministers like Sharon and Netanyahu. Neither of which had any interest in a two-state solution and increased the presence of settlers there.

Essentially, no one relevant is determined to reach a compromise that gives peace. The two-state solution at this stage is a meme, that people mention when stuff goes bad, but that has no chance of being implemented.

It only becomes truth when people stop believing in peace and simply acting like decent human beings. Shame on anyone believing this is the way forward or that it became the "unfortunate" reality.

It's a fecking myth that needs to die.

 

[Raoul]

Schrondinger’s Israel.

The country who is not that strong, but at the same time beat Arabs in wars 3 times (and Egypt in another) while barely taking a hit in the last three wars. The not that strong country who also has nukes and probably the second best Air Force in the world. The not that strong country, but still Arabs celebrate the last war, which they heavily lost, but didn’t lose as bad as the one before that.

How many times Israel has to defeat Arabs in war before people actually realize that a) Israel is actually very strong and b) you cannot solve the problems with Israel by force? To be fair, most of Arab countries have understood that but comments like ‘Israel is not that strong military’ are still omnipresent.

While this is largely accurate, the Israelis, as the far more powerful and resourced party, are still responsible for doing their part in coming to a long term deal that both parties can live with. Even without Hamas, they will still need to negotiate with the Palestinian side.

 

[Revan]

While this is largely accurate, the Israelis, as the far more powerful and resourced party, are still responsible for doing their part in coming to a long term deal that both parties can live with. Even without Hamas, they will still need to negotiate with the Palestinian side.

Completely agree. The morality (or lack of it) of Israel’s army and various Likud governments is very low. They have been for a long time an apartheid state, and now are making the next step towards a genocidal regime.

I just found completely stupid the thinking that Israel is not that strong military.

 

[Giggsyking]

never knew this

 

[Raoul]

 

[Revan]

It only becomes truth when people stop believing in peace and simply acting like a decent human being. Shame on anyone believing this is the way forward or that it became the "unfortunate" reality.

It's a fecking myth that needs to die.

I do not see how that happens without a world war. Essentially Israel does not want to give the territory they occupied and they are by far the stronger side in the conflict. They also have the backing of world’s strongest country and have normalized relations with most of their neighbors.

Palestinians on the other hand at this stage are two completely separate entities. The Gazas controlled by a terrorist organization whom want Palestine from the river to the sea, and the West Bank from a relatively weak regime who want far more territory on the West Bank that any Israeli government would think on giving them.

Finding a two-state solution at this stage is just impossible. There is as a big chance of that happening, as the US being divided into two states, one controlled by the Native Americans, and one from the others.

 

[Raoul]

Completely agree. The morality (or lack of it) of Israel’s army and various Likud governments is very low. They have been for a long time an apartheid state, and now are making the next step towards a genocidal regime.

I just found completely stupid the thinking that Israel is not that strong military.

Yes, which is why there will never be a military solution for the Palestinians, which in turn just shows the futility of Hamas and its mission to get rid of Israel by force, despite being vastly outgunned.

 

[JagUTD]

I'm sorry, I'm a little baffled. Are we just accepting ethnic cleansing to be a palatable solution now? No putting pressure on the Israelis to stop occupying and oppressing the Palestinian people? No forcing Israel to declare borders? All of that is off the cards now?

So our only realistic solution is essentially to 'from the river to the sea' the Palestinian people?

If so then I don't really know what to say.

Nobody here is accepting it as a solution. More a last resort that would still be preferable over the very worst care scenario.

And let's assume Israel agrees to completely exit all current Palestine territories and then agreens to declare borders. Who represents the Palestinians in this? The PA? Hamas? An independent party? Do they agree?

Also, it's fair to point out Owlo did state it would be better for Israel to move. But that's not going to happen. The reality is desperate.

 

[Giggsyking]

I swear some posters here are not real, they are bots. They cant be real people with this line of thinking.

 

[owlo]

I'm sorry, I'm a little baffled. Are we just accepting ethnic cleansing to be a palatable solution now? No putting pressure on the Israelis to stop occupying and oppressing the Palestinian people? No forcing Israel to declare borders? All of that is off the cards now?

So our only realistic solution is essentially to 'from the river to the sea' the Palestinian people?

If so then I don't really know what to say.

It only becomes truth when people stop believing in peace and simply acting like a decent human being. Shame on anyone believing this is the way forward or that it became the "unfortunate" reality.

It's a fecking myth that needs to die.

It’s been heading that way for a decade or more through Israeli actions and Palestinian reactions but unfortunately became an immutable truth on October 7th. I think the two state solution is dead for a generation. The only person who seems to think it isn’t, is Joe Biden. (He wants to talk about it after Israel turn Gaza into Grozny and kill countless more kids)

It’s why there’s so much hopelessness being expressed. I’d encourage you to tell me one vaguely realistic way to navigate out of this mess towards a 2 state solution, or even one where 2 million people don’t have to live in a 250sqm hellhole being run by terrorists and regularly bombarded by oppressors.

Even if Israel complete their campaign, destroy Hamas, and the PA takes over Gaza, there’s far too much hatred on both sides now. Every Palestinian will know a dead kid or relative, as will every Israeli. Iran will still be determined to prevent it. Israel will still want revenge, and rewarding Palestinians with a state after this will never be countenanced.

In a generation perhaps..

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

As I said you have my sympathies, genuinely and I will leave that point/discussion alone going forward.

The Israel point is being overstated though. Israel isn't the power it's being made out to be.

One thing I've noticed over the years is Britain's bitterness towards Israel. It's their child being raised by USA. Same USA who initially was a hurdle for Israel. Just subtle language where on the face of it Britain supports Israel but it isn't heartfelt. For me even BBC not using certain language and Wembley not being lit is suggestive of that.

America however is the step father who has adopted the child and over compensates to show it's love. Should that love be taken away Israel is finished.

This is a very strange post. No offence.