Club Sale | It’s done!

[aganley]

The amount of delusion qatar haters have has basically reached the point of Maga folks who believe the orange guy is still president The shit they will try to convince themselves of is unbelievable.

So we are supposed to believe the guy who started out with I want to buy the whole club then on seeing the price went to I guess I can't afford the whole club but I definitely want to buy the glazer shares to further slide to maybe I get the majority of the glazer shares to finally I will take a minority interest will actually come through and get glazers out and not just enjoy himself bragging to his buddies he owns man utd.

I couldn't have put it better myself, egotistical guy sat in pub with his mates, look i own them. But there crap, yeah but i own them.

 

[Rojofiam]

Yes I do. A car that few have heard about will suddenly get huge global exposure.

I also think he’s putting 1.5b into the club to promote all aspects of INEOS. From other sporting teams, to other products they may have. I think you’re pretty naive if you don’t realise the ripple affects it will have in his entire business.

I’ll explain it to you as if you’re 12. If Jim currently gets £1 in sponsorship for his racing team. Being associated with Man Utd could easily increase it to £3. The constant interaction between the brands and Man Utd will increase awareness of INEOS other sports and drive traffic.

So he was ready to spend 5 billion on a football club to promote his car.

 

[gaffs]

Feck me. You’re out here calling people dumb and 12 year old etc and you’re not aware of the difference between class a and class b shares or can’t even figure that if your own research painted the full picture it would mean the Glazers didn’t own United!

class b, voting rights
class a, non voting rights

 

[JediSith]

class b, voting rights
class a, non voting rights

Exactly. Class A could also be me doesn’t mean anything other than I have my money in a relatively stable stock. Class B = ownership, whether full or partial. When you own something you can do more. You have more say. You can use it to your advantage.

 

[Rightnr]

Give us all one good reason why Jim and Ineos and would settle for only 25% of the club?

If you've read the last few pages, you'd know that at 25% stake, he can block someone else from buying the club.

It's basically like those additional fees you can pay to 'reserve' a price. He'll pay a premium because he cannot stomp up the cash the same way the Qatar bid can.

If you want a (admittedly imperfect) comparison, think of buying consumer goods in instalments. You can buy it but it'll cost you because of interest which in this case is represented by the anticipated increase in club value over the medium term by the two clowns holding up the deal.

There's a ceiling to the appreciation based on what we know, as Ratcliffe will have call options on their stock for 2026 or somewhere at that point to buy them out at a premium but not a crazy one.

 

[cyberman]

If you've read the last few pages, you'd know that at 25% stake, he can block someone else from buying the club.

It's basically like those additional fees you can pay to 'reserve' a price. He'll pay a premium because he cannot stomp up the cash the same way the Qatar bid can.

If you want a (admittedly imperfect) comparison, think of buying consumer goods in instalments. You can buy it but it'll cost you because of interest which in this case is represented by the anticipated increase in club value over the medium term by the two clowns holding up the deal.

There's a ceiling to the appreciation based on what we know, as Ratcliffe will have call options on their stock for 2026 or somewhere at that point to buy them out at a premium but not a crazy one.

Why would Glazers agree to a call option and allow Jim to back out? It only that but kill any other deal Glazers might receive?
None of this makes sense. You lot are giving Jim so much leverage that it’s hilarious

 

[Brownie85]

If you've read the last few pages, you'd know that at 25% stake, he can block someone else from buying the club.

It's basically like those additional fees you can pay to 'reserve' a price. He'll pay a premium because he cannot stomp up the cash the same way the Qatar bid can.

If you want a (admittedly imperfect) comparison, think of buying consumer goods in instalments. You can buy it but it'll cost you because of interest which in this case is represented by the anticipated increase in club value over the medium term by the two clowns holding up the deal.

There's a ceiling to the appreciation based on what we know, as Ratcliffe will have call options on their stock for 2026 or somewhere at that point to buy them out at a premium but not a crazy one.

Wouldn't that be if his shares were classed as Class B shares and not downgraded to Class A. If they're Class A shares he wouldn't have a say in anything at all.

Unless there was something legal in writing saying that any Class B shares bought from the Glazers stay as Class B shares, then i'm sure he wouldn't have any say in how the club is ran would he?

 

[Rightnr]

Wouldn't that be if his shares were classed as Class B shares and not downgraded to Class A. If they're Class A shares he wouldn't have a say in anything at all.

Unless there was something legal in writing saying that any Class B shares bought from the Glazers stay as Class B shares, then i'm sure he wouldn't have any say in how the club is ran would he?

It's a good point but I'd have to imagine there's some financial engineering going on to ensure Ratcliffe doesn't look like a mug in a couple of years when Qatar buy a majority and force him to sell.

 

[gaffs]

Exactly. Class A could also be me doesn’t mean anything other than I have my money in a relatively stable stock. Class B = ownership, whether full or partial. When you own something you can do more. You have more say. You can use it to your advantage.

I still don't understand your point.

Jim wont get majority control of MUFC even with 25% of class b. Joel and Avram have more than that combined. They wont let him get free sponsorship and lose 60+mil a year. The club needs both the cash to both operate and to show on the FFP balance.

The Ineos grenadier is a pasion project. Look at the tiny sales figures....
https://www.theineosforum.com/threads/sales-figures.12412925/

Jim is 70 years old. He wants full control and wants a crack at bringing the club back to the top. 25% only is useless to him.

 

[Rightnr]

Why would Glazers agree to a call option and allow Jim to back out? It only that but kill any other deal Glazers might receive?
None of this makes sense. You lot are giving Jim so much leverage that it’s hilarious

This is what's been reported.

A call option is not just capping the upside for the Glazers, it's providing certainty for Ratcliffe, so he pays the premium they want over Qatar (based on valuation).

If there are no options involved, they'll just refuse to sell if they think the club is more valuable, so this way both parties get something they want. It's a deal after all.

 

[Brownie85]

It's a good point but I'd have to imagine there's some financial engineering going on to ensure Ratcliffe doesn't look like a mug in a couple of years when Qatar buy a majority and force him to sell.

But you also have to think, why would the Glazers put themselves in a position where Ratcliffe would be able to block a future bid should the value of the club increase beyond what they've "agreed". Imagine that the Glazers and Ratcliffe agree that Jim would buy the remainder of the shares in 2026 at a value of £4.5bn, meaning he's paid £6bn in total, yet the true value of the club is closer to £8bn or £9bn, do you honestly think the Glazers would be happy there or agree to something like that?

Of course i could be wrong about how all this works, but if this is a start to a full takeover at a later date, you'd have to imagine that an agreed figure would be present

 

[gaffs]

Wouldn't that be if his shares were classed as Class B shares and not downgraded to Class A. If they're Class A shares he wouldn't have a say in anything at all.

Unless there was something legal in writing saying that any Class B shares bought from the Glazers stay as Class B shares, then i'm sure he wouldn't have any say in how the club is ran would he?

Unless they change the company structure, any class B shares sold today instantly convert to class A.

Even if he could do that, what would the value be for Jim to own 25% of the club in Class B? Still less than Joel and Avram.

 

[gaffs]

If you've read the last few pages, you'd know that at 25% stake, he can block someone else from buying the club.

It's basically like those additional fees you can pay to 'reserve' a price. He'll pay a premium because he cannot stomp up the cash the same way the Qatar bid can.

If you want a (admittedly imperfect) comparison, think of buying consumer goods in instalments. You can buy it but it'll cost you because of interest which in this case is represented by the anticipated increase in club value over the medium term by the two clowns holding up the deal.

There's a ceiling to the appreciation based on what we know, as Ratcliffe will have call options on their stock for 2026 or somewhere at that point to buy them out at a premium but not a crazy one.

That makes no sense for anyone involved.

Jim wants control. He is not pissing about and wasting time and effort in the hope that a 25% stake may be worth more in 10 years time.
And The Glazers are not giving him 25% so he can cock block any other future investor.

 

[Brownie85]

Where does is say he is buying 12.5% of each share class?

For all we know, he could buy a tiny number of class B, thus triggering the offer of class A shares.

Lets say he matches the Qatar offer of on a per share basis for a big chunk of the class A shares. He then goes back and makes a lesser offer for the class B shares owned by the 4 Glazers that want out. Why a lesser offer? Because that is the condition he wants to leave the other 2 Glazers are shareholders. The Jassim bid is stuck because they will only settle for 100%.

https://news.sky.com/story/ratcliffe-mulls-buying-manchester-united-minority-stake-12975244

Sky News has learnt Sir Jim's Ineos Sports vehicle has proposed to the controlling Glazer family a deal that would see it acquiring chunks of both their shares and the stock publicly traded on the New York Stock Exchange (NYSE) in equal proportion.


That offer would entail making an offer at the same price for both sets of shares, with one suggestion on Monday evening being that Sir Jim could seek a roughly 25% stake in the club as part of his latest proposal.

Surely that means he's going to be buying 12.5% of Class B and 12.5% of Class A Shares, meaning that under the current structure, he's going to end up with 25% of Class A shares whilst the Glazers will reduce their holdings to 56.5% of Class B shares and perhaps no Class A shares if Ratcliffe buys them.

 

[gaffs]

But you also have to think, why would the Glazers put themselves in a position where Ratcliffe would be able to block a future bid should the value of the club increase beyond what they've "agreed". Imagine that the Glazers and Ratcliffe agree that Jim would buy the remainder of the shares in 2026 at a value of £4.5bn, meaning he's paid £6bn in total, yet the true value of the club is closer to £8bn or £9bn, do you honestly think the Glazers would be happy there or agree to something like that?

Of course i could be wrong about how all this works, but if this is a start to a full takeover at a later date, you'd have to imagine that an agreed figure would be present

I agree. It makes no sence.

This is all about hovering up the Class A shares to remove any legal issue asap. Then coming in and buying the class B shares owned by the other 4 siblings.

 

[gaffs]

https://news.sky.com/story/ratcliffe-mulls-buying-manchester-united-minority-stake-12975244



Surely that means he's going to be buying 12.5% of Class B and 12.5% of Class A Shares, meaning that under the current structure, he's going to end up with 25% of Class A shares whilst the Glazers will reduce their holdings to 56.5% of Class B shares and perhaps no Class A shares if Ratcliffe buys them.

That article does not say 12.5% or the make up of the 25% split.

All it says is ....

"That offer would entail making an offer at the same price for both sets of shares, with one suggestion on Monday evening being that Sir Jim could seek a roughly 25% stake in the club as part of his latest proposal."

Same price, not same proportion.

Surely it is better to hoover up all the class A shares, and remove the possibility of legal action, as it was told in Reuters...
https://www.breakingviews.com/considered-view/man-united-takeover-drama-may-end-up-in-court/

Thus paving they way for the purchase of the class B shares from the 4 other Glazer siblings.

 

[Brownie85]

That article does not say 12.5% or the make up of the 25% split.

All it says is ....

"That offer would entail making an offer at the same price for both sets of shares, with one suggestion on Monday evening being that Sir Jim could seek a roughly 25% stake in the club as part of his latest proposal."

Same price, not same proportion.

Surely it is better to hoover up all the class A shares, and remove the possibility of legal action, as it was told in Reuters...
https://www.breakingviews.com/considered-view/man-united-takeover-drama-may-end-up-in-court/

Thus paving they way for the purchase of the class B shares from the 4 other Glazer siblings.

But if they're buying 25% of Class B shares, would that mean they have to buy the same amount of Class A shares? I'm not sure, but i'm sure i read somewhere that it was an equal 12.5% split. I just can't seem to see where i read it! But still, it's all confusing and messy, which is why i think this will be more of a headache than it's worth for both parties.

My gut feeling is that the Glazers will essentially go back to SJ and say £6bn and it's yours, and he'll end up paying

 

[George The Best]

I agree. It makes no sence.

This is all about hovering up the Class A shares to remove any legal issue asap. Then coming in and buying the class B shares owned by the other 4 siblings.

That’s a huge leap of faith. Right now Ineos can only afford 25%. What makes you so sure they will come back for 100% in the future? If they have the money they should bid for 100% now. Besides, none of this money is going into the club - so we still have the problems of debt and infrastructure expense that the club cannot afford. This is just a side-show and doing absolutely nothing for the health of our club.

 

[cyberman]

That article does not say 12.5% or the make up of the 25% split.

All it says is ....

"That offer would entail making an offer at the same price for both sets of shares, with one suggestion on Monday evening being that Sir Jim could seek a roughly 25% stake in the club as part of his latest proposal."

Same price, not same proportion.

Surely it is better to hoover up all the class A shares, and remove the possibility of legal action, as it was told in Reuters...
https://www.breakingviews.com/considered-view/man-united-takeover-drama-may-end-up-in-court/

Thus paving they way for the purchase of the class B shares from the 4 other Glazer siblings.

Feck me all you’re describing is a full takeover here? Why not do that today?

 

[Brownie85]

That article does not say 12.5% or the make up of the 25% split.

All it says is ....

"That offer would entail making an offer at the same price for both sets of shares, with one suggestion on Monday evening being that Sir Jim could seek a roughly 25% stake in the club as part of his latest proposal."

Same price, not same proportion.

Surely it is better to hoover up all the class A shares, and remove the possibility of legal action, as it was told in Reuters...
https://www.breakingviews.com/considered-view/man-united-takeover-drama-may-end-up-in-court/

Thus paving they way for the purchase of the class B shares from the 4 other Glazer siblings.

Ummmm it says clearly here that they'll be bought in the same proportion??

" Sky News has learnt Sir Jim's Ineos Sports vehicle has proposed to the controlling Glazer family a deal that would see it acquiring chunks of both their shares and the stock publicly traded on the New York Stock Exchange (NYSE) in equal proportion."

So if he buys 25% of Class B shares, he's going to buy 25% of class A shares too??

 

[Spoony]

I don't understand why the Glaziers would give up full control in the future instead of today.

 

[greenoffpearson]

It’s real headache.

The class B shares would revert to class A shares on sale/transfer to a non Glazer.

However the Glazers even with a few shares would still control the company - their class B shares retaining greater voting rights (x10)

Sir Jim would need to change the company structure – memorandum and articles to rewrite them so that the Glazers can’t out vote him out.

If they are changing the articles and memo they would need to communicate all of that to the NYSE and obviously the other shareholders.

They would need a special shareholders meeting to ratify the changes.

The smaller holders – A class shareholders will not be happy about being short changed and particularly if Sir Jim was selectively picking who he purchased from. In the US they are strong on their Class legal actions – I’m sure those lawyers are watching this – Cayman Island Law – who knows?

It would be a minefield to get around all the issues.

Also Manchester United instructed Raine and therefore Raine have to report to Manchester United. They will need to conclude and serve notice of that conclusion to the NYSE.

What would the conclusion be – we had a few offers.

We recommended the Sheikh’s offer which was best for nearly everyone but were voted down but we carried out fiduciary duty so please don't sue us.

Then how can the Glazers ( who were also directors) sell off the back of that process to Sir Jim having voted down a better offer for the other share owners.

It would be a mess.

 

[JediSith]

I still don't understand your point.

Jim wont get majority control of MUFC even with 25% of class b. Joel and Avram have more than that combined. They wont let him get free sponsorship and lose 60+mil a year. The club needs both the cash to both operate and to show on the FFP balance.

The Ineos grenadier is a pasion project. Look at the tiny sales figures....
https://www.theineosforum.com/threads/sales-figures.12412925/

Jim is 70 years old. He wants full control and wants a crack at bringing the club back to the top. 25% only is useless to him.

I didn’t say he’ll be advertising on the club shirt. But as a part owner he’ll no doubt be allowed to push the INEOS brand and products through the clubs online channels, corporate events, and match day etc.

 

[gaffs]

Ummmm it says clearly here that they'll be bought in the same proportion??

" Sky News has learnt Sir Jim's Ineos Sports vehicle has proposed to the controlling Glazer family a deal that would see it acquiring chunks of both their shares and the stock publicly traded on the New York Stock Exchange (NYSE) in equal proportion."

So if he buys 25% of Class B shares, he's going to buy 25% of class A shares too??

My bad. It does say that!

 

[croadyman]

But if they're buying 25% of Class B shares, would that mean they have to buy the same amount of Class A shares? I'm not sure, but i'm sure i read somewhere that it was an equal 12.5% split. I just can't seem to see where i read it! But still, it's all confusing and messy, which is why i think this will be more of a headache than it's worth for both parties.

My gut feeling is that the Glazers will essentially go back to SJ and say £6bn and it's yours, and he'll end up paying

Only Jacobs saying he believes Jassim is willing to improve bid gives me hope of him hitting that figure,however fear this minority stake thing could change that and they go with Ratcliffe

 

[gaffs]

I didn’t say he’ll be advertising on the club shirt. But as a part owner he’ll no doubt be allowed to push the INEOS brand and products through the clubs online channels, corporate events, and match day etc.

All of which would reduce the commercial revenue from other current partners.

Including our current vehicle partner - https://www.manutd.com/en/partners/global/chevrolet

Again, if he wanted to sponsor the club, he could. He already does so at Spurs...

https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/ne...r-announces-partnership-with-ineos-grenadier/

 

[gaffs]

Only Jacobs saying he believes Jassim is willing to improve bid gives me hope of him hitting that figure,however fear this minority stake thing could change that and they go with Ratcliffe

I cant see how an improved Jassim bid helps.

I think we all know by now everyone but Joel and Avram want out. Including the Class A shareholders - they would be happy at $30 a share.

You break it down, even if Jassim does add another billion to his bid, that isnt enough to convince Joel and Avram who we believe think the club could be worth 2x in the future. It would though create massive pressure from the siblings on Joel and Avram.

 

[Berbaclass]

I cant see how an improved Jassim bid helps.

I think we all know by now everyone but Joel and Avram want out. Including the Class A shareholders - they would be happy at $30 a share.

You break it down, even if Jassim does add another billion to his bid, that isnt enough to convince Joel and Avram who we believe think the club could be worth 2x in the future. It would though create massive pressure from the siblings on Joel and Avram.

I think everyone would sell for 6 billion

 

[gaffs]

That’s a huge leap of faith. Right now Ineos can only afford 25%. What makes you so sure they will come back for 100% in the future? If they have the money they should bid for 100% now. Besides, none of this money is going into the club - so we still have the problems of debt and infrastructure expense that the club cannot afford. This is just a side-show and doing absolutely nothing for the health of our club.

What tells you they can only afford 25%.

It wasn't long ago they were bidding circa 3bil for 69%.

Jim wants control. Control is 69% currently, or possibly even less if there is a change in voting and share structures.

 

[gaffs]

I think everyone would sell for 6 billion

Based on?

 

[colombianmancunian]

My gut feeling is that the Glazers will essentially go back to SJ and say £6bn and it's yours, and he'll end up paying

I hope this happens.

 

[Berbaclass]

Based on?

Based on it being the purported asking price

 

[putzmcgee123]

Only Jacobs saying he believes Jassim is willing to improve bid gives me hope of him hitting that figure,however fear this minority stake thing could change that and they go with Ratcliffe

For all we know, a deal with Jassim could already be at an advanced stage and this was a last-ditch attempt by INEOS to stir things up. The anticipation is killer.

 

[Berbaclass]

For all we know, a deal with Jassim could already be at an advanced stage and this was a last-ditch attempt by INEOS to stir things up. The anticipation is killer.

We live in hope.

 

[Brownie85]

Based on it being the purported asking price

I agree, it would seem stupid if they asked for £6bn just for them to turn round and say no as soon as that figure is offered. Of course its their perogative to say no, but it'd heavily dent any future sale as they wouldn't be trusted I imagine

 

[George The Best]

What tells you they can only afford 25%.

It wasn't long ago they were bidding circa 3bil for 69%.

Jim wants control. Control is 69% currently, or possibly even less if there is a change in voting and share structures.

So why is he only bidding for 25%?

 

[gaffs]

So why is he only bidding for 25%?

We dont know if he is. But if he does, it will be with a veiw to increase his holding towards full control.

How does only obtaining 25% and stopping there help him?

 

[putzmcgee123]

We live in hope.

I honestly would have been able to live with INEOS if they fully bought out the Glazers now, or INEOS majority + private equity minority. This is just getting ridiculous.

Let's hope what we are seeing is reminiscent of Jimbo's pursuit of Chelsea, where he spent the latter days refusing to throw in the towel despite being told in no uncertain terms that it was not happening for him. Obviously the circumstances surrounding this sale are much different and Raine/the Glazers are incentivized to string INEOS along until the very end, even if they lose out.

 

[Berbaclass]

I honestly would have been able to live with INEOS if they fully bought out the Glazers now, or INEOS majority + private equity minority. This is just getting ridiculous.

Let's hope what we are seeing is reminiscent of Jimbo's pursuit of Chelsea, where he spent the latter days refusing to throw in the towel despite being told in no uncertain terms that it was not happening for him. Obviously the circumstances surrounding this sale are much different and Raine/the Glazers are incentivized to string INEOS along until the very end, even if they lose out.

Agree

 

[Brownie85]

Agree

Same, seems to me like the INEOS really are just offering anything they can now to try and turn the tide. The silence from SJ, in my opinion, truly does speak volumes