Lisandro Martinez | Signs for United

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Pronewbie said:
How does Pau Torres compare?
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Torres probably better again on the ball but also a more passive style of defender, which complements our existing CBs less. Torres is significantly taller but not significantly (if at all) better in the air.

Both would improve us, particularly due to the heavy demands ETH's style of play places on defenders in terms of what they do in possession.
 
Andersons Dietician said:
I’m somewhat confused by this signing, Timber ok, he could play RB and could drift centrally to act as an extra CM. Bit is Martinez coming in to be back up and replace Bailly/Jones/Tuanzebe. Or will he replace Maguire/Varane/Lindelof? As much as I dislike Maguire I don’t see Martinez replacing him.

So is he being brought in to be a DM and fill in CB when needed because I just can’t see him replacing our main 3 CB’s unless we are going 3 at the back.
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Yeah would be the second one for me
 
Suv666 said:
Yeah I agree with you. No doubt in my mind FDJ will play CDM. And he'll excel at it too.
Physicality is overrated. Great technique wins over brute force every time
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I think his system will involve the centre back, full backs and FDJ (if he signs) all taking up positions in midfield. We will look much better off the ball with regards to our positional play this year. Unfortunately it looks like the off the pitch not much has changed.
 
VanDeBank said:
Martinez is a left footed CB. ETH has a strong preference for those. Rather than thinking about replacing any of our CBs, think about it as signing a player for a position we don't have anyone currently for and those 6 CBs as being able to fill in, but it not being their primary position.
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If he has a preference for someone with a left foot, Wouldn’t that mean he prefers to play someone with a left foot which Maguire is not therefore replacing him? By replacing I mean going in the starting line up.

It just seems like a very weird signing. You either get someone with the ability to replace what you have or you don’t and admittedly only seeing little bits here and there I don’t see him replacing either of our main 3 CB’s.

However our lack of effort in getting a DM I wonder if that will be his role or will we play sort of a 3 at the back amd Shaw is moved in to the sort of inbetween role where I assumed a Timber would have played.

So say the back 4 is

Shaw-Martinez-Varane-Lindelof
DDG
​
But in truth it positionally looks more like this.

Shaw————DeJong

Martinez——-Varane——Lindelof
​
Shaw tasked with a similar role as to what he had when we came back from Covid, going between Fullback, LM or CM.

I‘m just trying to make sense of it in my head as to why we would spend say 48mil on someone who probably isn’t essential or an improvement on what we have unless it is for a very specific role or system change.

I’m intrigued if it happens as to what the plan is and I’m not against the signing but feel like if we need a CB go and get DeLigt or Torres who can probably oust what we have there already. Hopefully if we do sign him Martinez proves me wrong.
 
Highfather_24 said:
Our RB options are also much worse than our CB options. Our strike options are Rashford/Martial if Ronaldo leaves.

Also we are still stuck with one of McT/Fred in midfield, no matter what.

To me even after 5 possible signings, we didnt address 3 critical areas : RB, DM and CF.
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Yeah bang on our options are diabolical at RB and still not addressed any of those key areas you mentioned
 
Suv666 said:
Yeah I agree with you. No doubt in my mind FDJ will play CDM. And he'll excel at it too.
Physicality is overrated. Great technique wins over brute force every time
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I wouldn't say physicality is overrated, but people often focus on the wrong aspects of it, especially when they talk about how physical a league the PL is.

Some people seem to imagine you need plenty of big, tall strong players to cope in the PL but in reality (and particularly in the top teams) the physicality involved is more about endurance and being able to operate at sustained intensity. Combined with a heavy emphasis on technique.

Someone like Bernardo Silva is an example of someone who is built for the physicality of the league, far more so than many other players with larger frames or greater upper body strength.
 
Andersons Dietician said:
If he has a preference for someone with a left foot, Wouldn’t that mean he prefers to play someone with a left foot which Maguire is not therefore replacing him? By replacing I mean going in the starting line up.

It just seems like a very weird signing. You either get someone with the ability to replace what you have or you don’t and admittedly only seeing little bits here and there I don’t see him replacing either of our main 3 CB’s.

However our lack of effort in getting a DM I wonder if that will be his role or will we play sort of a 3 at the back amd Shaw is moved in to the sort of inbetween role where I assumed a Timber would have played.

So say the back 4 is

Shaw-Martinez-Varane-Lindelof
DDG
​
But in truth it positionally looks more like this.

Shaw————DeJong

Martinez——-Varane——Lindelof
​
Shaw tasked with a similar role as to what he had when we came back from Covid, going between Fullback, LM or CM.

I‘m just trying to make sense of it in my head as to why we would spend say 48mil on someone who probably isn’t essential or an improvement on what we have unless it is for a very specific role or system change.

I’m intrigued if it happens as to what the plan is and I’m not against the signing but feel like if we need a CB go and get DeLigt or Torres who can probably oust what we have there already. Hopefully if we do sign him Martinez proves me wrong.
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No, he isn't buying Martinez to play DM when he has concluded Alvarez is a better DM. And yes, we'll likely move a CB on if we buy a CB. None of it is relevant to the fact that ETH would prefer not to with a right footed LCB, which was my response to your initial post stating that we don't need Martinez because we have 6 CBs.

I also don't know how you think we're paying 50 million pounds for one of his former players and expecting him to be bought for the bench when we have Maguire Lindelof starting damn near every game. Just say you don't rate him and save us some bandwidth.
 
Teja said:
Have to agree to disagree there. I personally don't believe Matip / Mane were the players that lead them to have the second season that they did. Matip on a free was mocked / ridiculed during that season and he was relegated to a backup of VVD / Gomez the following year if memory serves.

Klopp was able to drill his existing players for almost an entire season and IMO his coaching ability rather than the transfers is what turned them around initially.

I agree that if Pool had the same amount of money that we have available now, they would have signed more players that fit his philosophy. But I really doubt 100M+ backing in the first window on targets the manager wants (Martinez / Antony) without any input from the club is the way to go about it.
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I'm not disagreeing with you, what I'm saying is that Klopp targeted players he was mostly familiar with in his first foray into the transfer market in the summer of 2016. And because believe or not, Edwards and the transfer committee were a running a joke amongst Liverpool fans and the media at the time and if it wasn't for Klopp the narrative around them would've been very different right now imo.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you about Klopp coaching his players from when he started at the club in October 2015, but also don't forget that the team he inherited had been coached by Brendan Rodgers who is a modern progressive coach who set his team out to play a high intensity playstyle and almost won the league scoring over a 100 goals.

The club of course would've had a say if Klopp had more money available to him. But I'm not sure the reputation of the transfer committee which was led by Michael Edwards who had been part of multiple failures up to that point was the way to go, hence Klopp taking charge as the manager and leading the recruitment in his first summer window. And from what I understand, Klopp guided Edwards and the recruitment team to recruit towards a bespoke recruitment model which catered for a specific play style.

If United go ahead and sign Antony and Martinez for over a 100m, then I believe the input of the Dutch scouts, Roy Buekenkamp and the head of European scouting, Henny de Regt (also Dutch/ex Ajax) will be sought. De Regt was at Ajax for 18 years and is credited with discovering the likes of Wesley Sneijder, Christian Eriksen and de Ligt.
 
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Give the manager whatever player he demands. If we dont improve and still win nothing in the near future, atleast we would know who to blame :smirk:
 
Abraxas said:
Is it a good type of proven though? As far as I can see Ake was a fairly run of the mill defender and I was hugely surprised City bought him. Unsurprisingly he has made no impact.

At least Martinez is unexposed at PL level. He could be bad, mediocre or good and obviously we're backing the manager's case that he'll be the latter. That's probably preferable to knowing the player is totally average.
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If City didn't buy Ake, we would have, 100%. He is a very handy player, being left-footed and capable of playing (like Martinez), LB as well as DM.
 
VanDeBank said:
No, he isn't buying Martinez to play DM when he has concluded Alvarez is a better DM. And yes, we'll likely move a CB on if we buy a CB. None of it is relevant to the fact that ETH would prefer not to with a right footed LCB, which was my response to your initial post stating that we don't need Martinez because we have 6 CBs.

I also don't know how you think we're paying 50 million pounds for one of his former players and expecting him to be bought for the bench when we have Maguire Lindelof starting damn near every game. Just say you don't rate him and save us some bandwidth.
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No where did I say this. I feel like you’re reading someone’s else’s post and confusing it with mine as nothing you’ve written makes any sense in the context. It’s like you’re replying to a completely different post and to boot being a bit of an arse with your response instead of trying to have a conversation.
 
Andersons Dietician said:
No where did I say this. I feel like you’re reading someone’s else’s post and confusing it with mine as nothing you’ve written makes any sense in the context. It’s like you’re replying to a completely different post and to boot being a bit of an arse with your response instead of trying to have a conversation.
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Andersons Dietician said:
I’m somewhat confused by this signing, Timber ok, he could play RB and could drift centrally to act as an extra CM. Bit is Martinez coming in to be back up and replace Bailly/Jones/Tuanzebe. Or will he replace Maguire/Varane/Lindelof? As much as I dislike Maguire I don’t see Martinez replacing him.

So is he being brought in to be a DM and fill in CB when needed because I just can’t see him replacing our main 3 CB’s unless we are going 3 at the back.
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I count 6. You also went on to state you can't see him replacing our main 3 CBs.
Sounds to me like you don't rate him and dont see the point in this signing (because you think he's shit). I think "I don't want Martinez because we have other CBs" is a fair summary.

And yes, if you think he can't displace Maguire or Lindelof = you think he's shit (within the context of a top club, give or take a some nuance).
 
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VanDeBank said:
I count 6. You also went on to state you can't see him replacing our main 3 CBs.
Sounds to me like you don't rate him and dont see the point in this signing (because you think he's shit). I think "I don't want Martinez because we have other CBs" is a fair summary.

And yes, if you think he can't displace Maguire or Lindelof = you think he's shit (within the context of a top club, give or take a some nuance).
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No I think you’ll find you‘re reading in to things that were never said and making up some nonsense. I mean look at your final sentence. I’m going to agree with something you said earlier. No point wasting bandwidth. Wish I’d listened then.

Good day sir..
 
Andersons Dietician said:
No I think you’ll find you‘re reading in to things that were never said and making up some nonsense. I mean look at your final sentence.
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A left footed CB that has played under ETH can apparently still be good and not displace Lindelof or Maguire under the same manager. Fascinating.
 
VanDeBank said:
A left footed CB that has played under ETH can apparently still be good and not displace Lindelof or Maguire under the same manager. Fascinating.
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So really what you’re saying is that Lindelof and Maguire are so crap that it would be a miracle if he couldn’t replace them and me thinking he probably won’t replace them has angered you in to this fit of rage where you don’t read properly or understand the context of posts?

Again whilst still fabricating things in your own head and attributing it to other people.

now good day sir, be done with you.
 
Adnan said:
I'm not disagreeing with you, what I'm saying is that Klopp targeted players he was mostly familiar with in his first foray into the transfer market in the summer of 2016. And because believe or not, Edwards and the transfer committee were a running a joke amongst Liverpool fans and the media at the time and if it wasn't for Klopp the narrative around them would've been very different right now imo.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you about Klopp coaching his players from when he started at the club in October 2015, but also don't forget that the team he inherited had been coached by Brendan Rodgers who is a modern progressive coach who set his team out to play a high intensity playstyle and almost won the league scoring over a 100 goals.

The club of course would've had a say if Klopp had more money available to him. But I'm not sure the reputation of the transfer committee which was led by Michael Edwards who had been part of multiple failures up to that point was the way to go, hence Klopp taking charge as the manager and leading the recruitment in his first summer window. And from what I understand, Klopp guided Edwards and the recruitment team to recruit towards a bespoke recruitment model which catered for a specific play style.

If United go ahead and sign Antony and Martinez for over a 100m, then I believe the input of the Dutch scouts, Roy Buekenkamp and the head of European scouting, Henny de Regt (also Dutch/ex Ajax) will be sought. De Regt was at Ajax for 18 years and is credited with discovering the likes of Wesley Sneijder, Christian Eriksen and de Ligt.
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Cheers - I do trust EtH, so I think we got the most important decision right. There are other ways of achieving success but the most obvious way is to find an excellent manager and hire for their play style.

I hope you're right about the scouting opinions as well. The club looks like it's ready to spend a significant amount of money this summer because of all of the contract expiries / freed up wages. I hope we do it well because it's not often we get opportunities like this. (new manager, lots of deadwood leaving, funds available etc.)

EDIT

On an unrelated note, YouTube recommended this video of the Ajax pre-season game that just happened. Given we chatted about positional play, it was interesting to note how neatly the pitch was divided into the boxes you see in that system. I thought that it limited to training only but it looks like they even play their friendlies that way.

You see a different view of the game with players moving into various zones and others moving out as a result when the boxes are actually visible.

 
Andersons Dietician said:
So really what you’re saying is that Lindelof and Maguire are so crap that it would be a miracle if he couldn’t replace them and me thinking he probably won’t replace them has angered you in to this fit of rage where you don’t read properly or understand the context of posts?

Again whilst still fabricating things in your own head and attributing it to other people.

now good day sir, be done with you.
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What happened to "good day". I thought you were "done"? :confused:

No I don't think it would mean "Lindelof and Maguire are so crap". It would mean you have a fairly low opinion of Martinez.

You're projecting, you are the one fuming. I'm cool as ice.

Cya in a bit.
 
Teja said:
Cheers - I do trust EtH, so I think we got the most important decision right. There are other ways of achieving success but the most obvious way is to find an excellent manager and hire for their play style.

I hope you're right about the scouting opinions as well. The club looks like it's ready to spend a significant amount of money this summer because of all of the contract expiries / freed up wages. I hope we do it well because it's not often we get opportunities like this. (new manager, lots of deadwood leaving, funds available etc.)

EDIT

On an unrelated note, YouTube recommended this video of the Ajax pre-season game that just happened. Given we chatted about positional play, it was interesting to note how neatly the pitch was divided into the boxes you see in that system. I thought that it limited to training only but it looks like they even play their friendlies that way.

You see a different view of the game with players moving into various zones and others moving out as a result when the boxes are actually visible.

Click to expand...

I hope I'm right aswell about the scouts, and the information I've gleaned about Henny de Regt is very positive. Our issue isn't with the lead or regional scouts but rather that we don't have anyone right now in a head of scouting role who oversees the whole recruitment department. And when the club parted company with Lawlor and Bout in April, they also parted company with the scout reports from the season just gone imo. Ideally you need the DoF to have his chosen people running the recruitment department and that wasn't the case with Bout and Lawlor. So I'm expecting to see the influence of whoever is appointed as the head of scouting by the summer window of 2023.

Vertical positional play on the ball isn't straight forward to coach from what I've learned over the years. With clubs like Ajax and certain Spanish clubs, they train their youngsters to play a basic level of positional play, starting at youth level. And then as they progress through the ranks, the players are given additional tasks like 'positional rotation' etc. Ajax have produced some of the greatest players of all time who exhude craft and guile in abundance. Clarence Seedorf is one example of one of their academy graduates who went on to win 4 champions league titles in 3 different leagues in Europe.

It's a method of play which ascends the collective over individuality to impose the game on the opponent in a proactive attacking sense.
 
Teja said:
EDIT

On an unrelated note, YouTube recommended this video of the Ajax pre-season game that just happened. Given we chatted about positional play, it was interesting to note how neatly the pitch was divided into the boxes you see in that system. I thought that it limited to training only but it looks like they even play their friendlies that way.

You see a different view of the game with players moving into various zones and others moving out as a result when the boxes are actually visible.

Click to expand...


Its not like they play there to use these boxes. They simply chose to play the match at that pitch which has these boxes permanently. However these boxes are indeed there for training purposes to train positional play.
 
Rolaholic said:






Taking a real liking to this lad
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That last player that really impressed me in his efforts to come to United was Marcos Rojo. To go on strike at Sporting was impressive.

Might not be to everyone's tastes but I love that shit.

Rojo even said he danced around his apartment with his girlfriend when he heard United were interested. Top red.
 
We are paying what Ajax wanted for Martinez. If they didn't want to sell then they should have told us that he is not for sale for any price. Think when Arsenal started bidding for him, we got in and offered what Ajax wanted. Bit surprising that Ajax are now refusing to sell him.

These reports that Ajax are angry with United in destabilizing their player is bit odd considering player was ready to leave to Arsenal before we came in. Same goes for Antony.

Would still prefer amicable solution to this as our relationship with Ajax has been pretty good.
 
Red the Bear said:
All quite on the eastern front.
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Maybe Ajax is working behind the scenes to figure out the next steps. Teams will try to fleece Ajax for any replacement they try to get after Lisandro, they know they'll have extra cash so they may ask more than they would. I think either way this transfer wraps up early next week
 
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sleepehead said:
Maybe Ajax is working behind the scenes to figure out the next steps. Teams will try to fleece Ajax for any replacement they try to get after Lisandro, they know they'll have extra cash so they may ask more than they would. I think either way this transfer wraps up early next week
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I hope so.
 
Daslogisch said:
Why should Ajax sell him for a reasonable price, when Ajax has specifically said this player is not for sale? This players has just signed a new extended contract less than a year ago. Ajax wants an OTT price because this was the player of the year and Ajax had no intention of selling him. There's no reason to sell him for a reasonable price. Moreover, Newcastle United has just bought Sven Botman for €40m and he was moved from Ajax to Lille because he wasn't good enough (third choice LCB behind Martinez and Blind). If Botman is valued at €40m then 50-60m for Martinez isn't that outrageous at all. Chelsea's signing Ake from the City bench for about the same amount. Martinez isn't more unproven than Ake. Actually the €50-60m is quite realistic compared to other CB's that are being transferred, especially when taking into account that Ajax don't want to sell this player and he has a three year contract left.

It's not respectful for a manager to go after the players of his former club when the club has mentioned specifically that it does not want to sell these players. He could've interfered in Gravenberch going to Munich. Ajax would have been happy to work with him. If Timber would have made the choice to go, then Ajax would have worked with him (at that point Ajax had not sold Haller yet and also Timber has only a 2 year deal left. Ajax would have been more reasonable to work with. But Antony and Martinez have a 3 year deal left. Ajax wants to keep some key players as well. So then it would be more respectful if the former manager respected his old club's wishes instead of unsettling all these players. And as mentioned, if then you still feel you really need those players then the least respect you can show is pay up the fee wanted and not drag out the negotiations and unsettle the players in the process. This is what annoys at least a part of the fanbase.

Last but not least you're making a lot of assumptions which are based on nothing. Especially regarding Antony there are absolutely no reliable reports on Ajax being open to sell him. Antony is a future star that we want to see shining on our own team first before we sell him. Ajax absolutely don't want to sell him. 70/80M is indeed OTT, but it's going to take an OTT fee to get Ajax to sell it's future star against it's wishes. That's whe way it is and Ajax is completely in it's right.
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He's been at Ajax for long time so he wants a new challenge. Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised that he decides to place transfer request or forcing Ajax to accept the offer. And if this happens, it would be the reason why Ajax should accept the €50m offer as that's good enough value and club shouldn't try to keep players who don't want to stay.
 
At least this guy shows that he wants to come here but FDJ never did the same.
 
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