Religion, what's the point?

Moby said:
And the crowd thanks to their blind faith falls for it.
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Blind faith? Or benefit.

Like I have said older people in UK vote for Tories because it suits their pockets and needs.

Asian people traditionally voted labour as it suited their needs.

If religion and blind faith was the key factor most Muslim people in UK should have voted BNP. Simply because theirs was the manifesto that spoke of bringing troops back home and leaving the likes of Iraq and Afghanistan to their own devices. If issues of Palestine and occupation/war was as big an issue that it lead to terrorism then BNP offered what is believed Muslims wanted.

Unfortunately religion is not the ultimate vote winner. Visa for spouses and free TV license etc trump it (no pun intended)
 
Roane said:
Blind faith? Or benefit.
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Blind faith. Because they are told bollocks like voting for xyz guy will bring everything closer to how Christ wanted it to be and what not.

Religious people listen to their religious leaders even if it means damaging their own lives in reality.
 
Carolina Red said:
Case in point: all the evangelical Covid victims in the American Southeast.

Highest death rate of any region in America.
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Yeah and it's identical everywhere. Here in India (one of the biggest religious hotbeds in the world) some of the worst covid deathzones were large religious gatherings during early stages when thousands just decided to go to their events without caring about social distancing or isolation. They were told shite like drinking the holy water will protect you or whatever and that was it. Natural selection came to play.
 
Moby said:
Yeah and it's identical everywhere. Here in India (one of the biggest religious hotbeds in the world) some of the worst covid deathzones were large religious gatherings during early stages when thousands just decided to go to their events without caring about social distancing or isolation. They were told shite like drinking the holy water will protect you or whatever and that was it. Natural selection came to play.
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Yep. We had folks just like that. Churches refusing to halt services and the like. “I trust in the Lord to protect me! If it’s my time then it’s my time!”
[Two weeks later their obituary is in the paper]
 
Deery said:
I’ve never read the Quran but I’d be pretty sure it’s teaching would be the exact opposite of what those who have murdered people in Allah’s name would be.
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Yes, but you still call these people Islamic terrorists. You still single out Islamic terrorists as people more worthy of government attention.

So even though you don't think that people like Breivik is acting in a way according to what the religion prescribes, that shouldn't stop you from being able to talk about Christian terrorism.
 
NotThatSoph said:
Yes, but you still call these people Islamic terrorists. You still single out Islamic terrorists as people more worthy of government attention.

So even though you don't think that people like Breivik is acting in a way according to what the religion prescribes, that shouldn't stop you from being able to talk about Christian terrorism.
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Breivik was Far Right as far as I know and wanted to wipe out any potential Muslim political leaders.

Islamic Terrorists quite clearly state they are doing it for Allah, so that’s why I said that.
 
Deery said:
Breivik was Far Right as far as I know and wanted to wipe out any potential Muslim political leaders.

Islamic Terrorists quite clearly state they are doing it for Allah, so that’s why I said that.
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Yes, he was far right. And Christianity was central to his far right worldview.
 
Roane said:
In terms of voting? No. It is about self interest however.

If religion was such a high factor for people then in the UK religious people wouldn't have voted for a party legalising same sex marriage etc. The fact that it didn't matter shows self interests of a different kind play a larger role.

As for 7/7 its lazy/too easy to say it was based on religion. Especially when you consider the people involved.
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You’ve got to stop trying to equate religious US & UK people to fashion your arguments. They are about as alike as apples & bicycles. You do not have a solid grasp on American evangelicals.

Too easy? It’s because religion played a large part in it. You are tryi go to say otherwise?
 
Relevated said:
I'm not peddling them onto you, or anybody else. You can believe in whatever you want to. You should work on your self esteem perhaps, and you shouldn't insult yourself so much.
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It’s not just you, it’s you & your ilk.

Don’t take it so personally, we all like fairy tales at some point in our lives.
 
Relevated said:
I'm not peddling them onto you, or anybody else. You can believe in whatever you want to. You should work on your self esteem perhaps, and you shouldn't insult yourself so much.
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You literally came in and opened the conversation by saying atheists’ morality changes like the wind, the sanctimony is through the roof.

Sorry, but you don’t get to play the ‘I’m the rational one and you are just overreacting’ card after that.
 
Roane said:
It can't be removed completely I agree. It's a fact that they are evangelical.

However it can be broken down further when looking at voting patterns. So mainly white, mainly older and lower socio economically and from the south. Of religion is a factor then so is geography and age and education.
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And also centered in the pacific NW as well as the Rust Belt & Midwest. Age runs the gamut. There are also quite a few upper class enclaves who are evangelical, many in the southeast. What’s the common thread? Religion.

You just don’t have a tangible grasp on this topic. It is extremely cylindrical.
 
Relevated said:
Good one man you got me
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Yes I did. Because the only way you can answer that question truthfully without contradicting anything you've said so far is by admitting that the only thing that matters to you when it comes to morality is what your supposed god tells you, even when it goes against what you know is right or wrong.
 
calodo2003 said:
You’ve got to stop trying to equate religious US & UK people to fashion your arguments. They are about as alike as apples & bicycles. You do not have a solid grasp on American evangelicals.

Too easy? It’s because religion played a large part in it. You are tryi go to say otherwise?
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My equating of the US and UK (and Pakistan under Khan) does have a reason for me. Ultimately what happens in America is copied somewhat in other places. Personality politics in UK under conservatives pretty much used models from the US.

I'm not American or even been there but my grasp on politics is not totally bad.
 
calodo2003 said:
And also centered in the pacific NW as well as the Rust Belt & Midwest. Age runs the gamut. There are also quite a few upper class enclaves who are evangelical, many in the southeast. What’s the common thread? Religion.

You just don’t have a tangible grasp on this topic. It is extremely cylindrical.
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Because I don't agree I don't have a grasp? Ok.

There will always be exceptions to the rule.
 
Carolina Red said:
https://www.oah.org/tah/issues/2018/november/evangelicalism-and-politics/

https://www.theatlantic.com/podcasts/archive/2021/05/evangelicals-republican-voters/618845/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outl...licans-white-christians-now-party-is-trapped/
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Not totally gone through these. I was hoping for a succinct reply rather than reading material. It's the last day of the football season here and it's been engrossing.

Anyway the second article is interesting and seems to support some of my arguments.
 
Roane said:
Not totally gone through these. I was hoping for a succinct reply rather than reading material. It's the last day of the football season here and it's been engrossing.

Anyway the second article is interesting and seems to support some of my arguments.
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Succinct reply version: the GOP has actively campaigned towards evangelical’s religious beliefs about social issues to turn them into their most reliable voting bloc. It didn’t used to be that way, but it is now, specifically because of their religious views.
 
Roane said:
Because I don't agree I don't have a grasp? Ok.

There will always be exceptions to the rule.
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Evangelicalism isn’t simply a southern construct. It exists throughout the country with religion as the only true commonality. This is impossible to refute. We can also take it one more step to extremism; this means the epicenter migrates to the north & west & religion is again the common theme.
 
You’re gonna see more of this in the coming years. Thankfully this wacko isn’t polling high at all…

 
calodo2003 said:
And also centered in the pacific NW as well as the Rust Belt & Midwest. Age runs the gamut. There are also quite a few upper class enclaves who are evangelical, many in the southeast. What’s the common thread? Religion.

You just don’t have a tangible grasp on this topic. It is extremely cylindrical.
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Then there’s the super religious conservative voting bloc known as… the Mormons
 
Carolina Red said:
Succinct reply version: the GOP has actively campaigned towards evangelical’s religious beliefs about social issues to turn them into their most reliable voting bloc. It didn’t used to be that way, but it is now, specifically because of their religious views.
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Yeah I appreciate the response.

I also agree with what the GOP have done. Again politics is the driving force here no?

Trump, for example didn't believe in some of the issues but remained silent to keep the vote.

The motivation is not religion.
 
calodo2003 said:
Evangelicalism isn’t simply a southern construct. It exists throughout the country with religion as the only true commonality. This is impossible to refute. We can also take it one more step to extremism; this means the epicenter migrates to the north & west & religion is again the common theme.
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No I agree it isn't simply southern but where are the large parts of it?

The breakdown in other areas doesn't show the large swathes of support for republicans as the south. Broadly/generally speaking. Better education or younger age group all have an effect.
 




So, if one only goes to church for a couple of hours a week, but becomes anti-LGBTQ, religion isn’t to blame?

Make it make sense.
 
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Roane said:
No I agree it isn't simply southern but where are the large parts of it?

The breakdown in other areas doesn't show the large swathes of support for republicans as the south. Broadly/generally speaking. Better education or younger age group all have an effect.
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Rust Belt (Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania), Midwest (Nebraska, Iowa, Kansas), NW (Idaho, Montana eastern Washington, eastern Oregon), Utah

All of these areas are rabidly right wing. Some even with Alabama & Mississippi, I think Idaho is more virulent.

You simply know not of what you speak.
 
Carolina Red said:
@Roane

I cannot emphasize enough how many churches this message is preached in around this country.
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Seen this before.

Look I'm not saying that there are not extreme views. Im not saying these views are bought into and realised by politicians looking to gain power.

The main issue was what is the biggest motivator. And to me it's politics. A concerted effort to buy into groups to get votes. Religion is a tool used in that. Not the main effector.

I listened to an interesting view about black churches recently. How their involvement in things like civil rights has been non existent in many since the state/government had an influence on them. I'll try and find it. But the point is religion has become secondary even for them over political and financial gain
 
calodo2003 said:
Rust Belt (Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania), Midwest (Nebraska, Iowa, Kansas), NW (Idaho, Montana eastern Washington, eastern Oregon), Utah

All of these areas are rabidly right wing. Some even with Alabama & Mississippi, I think Idaho is more virulent.

You simply know not of what you speak.
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Is the rust belt largely evangelical?
 
Roane said:
Yeah I appreciate the response.

I also agree with what the GOP have done. Again politics is the driving force here no?

Trump, for example didn't believe in some of the issues but remained silent to keep the vote.

The motivation is not religion.
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We aren’t talking about Trump, we know he believes in nothing but what profits him.

What others have pointed out and you have been trying to dance around is the fact that the driving motivation for that voting bloc named white evangelicals which the GOP courted, and which used to vote solidly Democratic before the 60s, is religion. Kennedy being the first Catholic president was once a big deal, because US Christianity traditions were Protestant and fringe movements.

We can be objective and acknowledge the positive impact that some schools of Christianity had in some of their social movements like the abolitionist movement, the Prohibition (although that turned out rather badly) or the sufferage movement, but to refute the fact that religious beliefs have always informed the political choice of a lot of their population is just burying your head in the sand.
 
Roane said:
Is the rust belt largely evangelical?
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Not as much as the Midwest (although some consider Ohio, etc. midwest, but that’s just weird to me).

You are correct that the south holds the highest population of evangelicals, but they are also concentrated elsewhere.

The true example of their impact isn’t necessarily top of the ticket (but it is evident there), but further down ballot. It is here where the true damage is done.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
We aren’t talking about Trump, we know he believes in nothing but what profits him.

What others have pointed out and you have been trying to dance around is the fact that the driving motivation for that voting bloc named white evangelicals which the GOP courted, and which used to vote solidly Democratic before the 60s, is religion. Kennedy being the first Catholic president was once a big deal, because US Christianity traditions were Protestant and fringe movements.

We can be objective and acknowledge the positive impact that some schools of Christianity had in some of their social movements like the abolitionist movement, the Prohibition (although that turned out rather badly) or the sufferage movement, but to refute the fact that religious beliefs have always informed the political choice of a lot of their population is just burying your head in the sand.
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Think we need to go back to how this discussion started, with me.

In a nutshell the GOP targeting a certain group to win/gain power isn't about religious motivation. The main driver I would suggest is power.
 
calodo2003 said:
Not as much as the Midwest (although some consider Ohio, etc. midwest, but that’s just weird to me).

You are correct that the south holds the highest population of evangelicals, but they are also concentrated elsewhere.

The true example of their impact isn’t necessarily top of the ticket (but it is evident there), but further down ballot. It is here where the true damage is done.
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We started about evangelicals and my points were specifically with regards to them.

If the discussion is to be widened then fair enough. But my points specifically about a specific group in a specific area was and is just that.
 
Roane said:
Yeah I appreciate the response.

I also agree with what the GOP have done. Again politics is the driving force here no?

Trump, for example didn't believe in some of the issues but remained silent to keep the vote.

The motivation is not religion.
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The motivation for the voters absolutely is religion.

It’s the same as why evangelicals are such die hard supporters of Israel. They don’t care about the Jews… they care about bringing about the Rapture, and they believe that the only way to do that is for Israel to exist.
 
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