I hate lumping every player in they have given up. Pogba has given up whenever he's felt like it over the last number of years. I think most players try. Fewer play intelligently and some seem utterly lost at times.
Ralf Rangnick | ex-interim manager | does anyone rate him?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are here to talk about United's dreadful home defeat at the hands of Big Ange's Tottenham Hotspur. Should this have been the end of Ten Hag? How long does he actually have left? And does Nik finally want ETH out?!
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I hate lumping every player in they have given up. Pogba has given up whenever he's felt like it over the last number of years. I think most players try. Fewer play intelligently and some seem utterly lost at times.
The notion about our structure being brand new and functional is laughable. I've decided to wait and see what changes but already knowing it's the same hands that were part making those decisions even before Ole left. It's the same thought process that saw a certain someone(s) renew Phelan, Carrick and co weeks into the disaster period that got them sacked. We were renewing their contracts when any exec worth their salt would have been cautious whether they could even make it to Christmas. Came out with some silly logic equating the obvious with short termism. Sure enough Ole would end up sacked weeks later and we were left with the freshly renewed staff members of a freshly sacked coach. How else does the assistant manager out-tenure his superior. Carrick and Phelan having the pride to leave somewhat eased the situation but the illtimed contract renewals haven't gone anywhere.
Now we have a highly technical coach on his way with a highly technical, highly demanding brand of football known for making certain types of players obsolete. No one should be getting long term renewed before ETH arrives. This just risks burdening him. I thought the logic for not buying in January was not knowing whether the new coach might want the player. What happened to that line of reasoning?
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I like the cut of his jib. I like his honesty and I think he's been let down by the motley crew of players we've ended up with.
No getting away from the fact that he's been a pretty underwhelming interim manager. There's been no bounce to speak of and how many good performances have we had under him. Ronaldo masterclass vs Spurs? Leeds away?
I hope they keep him around anyway. The amount of knowledge he must've built up managing these guys must be invaluable. If the board have any sense they'll keep him about and get top draw info on what's really going on in that dressing room.
No getting away from the fact that he's been a pretty underwhelming interim manager. There's been no bounce to speak of and how many good performances have we had under him. Ronaldo masterclass vs Spurs? Leeds away?
I hope they keep him around anyway. The amount of knowledge he must've built up managing these guys must be invaluable. If the board have any sense they'll keep him about and get top draw info on what's really going on in that dressing room.
I really hope Ralf will be allowed to have some sort of control, I think he will do a good job. I’m optimistic, even though It’s terrible now, but we got many new faces, and with Ralf, hopefully it’s time we modernize the club. I won’t make a judgment on John and Arnold until I see how they operate in their role first.
He's not done a good job at all. Expected much more. But he has a good track record at building clubs speaks sense so I do hope we give him a meaty role and use his expertise going forward in that regard.
Jesus there’s some hypocrisy in here.
People going on about toxic dressing room, toxic back room. There’s nothing more toxic than the majority of our ‘supporters’ at the moment. Seems some are only happy when they’re criticising.
Embarrassing.
People going on about toxic dressing room, toxic back room. There’s nothing more toxic than the majority of our ‘supporters’ at the moment. Seems some are only happy when they’re criticising.
Embarrassing.
Rangnicks recommendations to the board sound like common sense , there is no quick fix , he basically recommends we dismantle much of the squad we have and and start again with a long term process where the new manager gets players exclusively specific to the style of play that manager intends to play , no more mish mash scatter gun approach to recruitment like we have seen. And we also advises we take a more profession approach when it comes to profiling players DNA , ie making sure before we sign that they are likely suited t the rigors of the premier league.
It is vital the new manager is in place ASAP so this long process can begin.
It is vital the new manager is in place ASAP so this long process can begin.
Anyone already judging Rangnick don't understand the reason he's been brought to the club in the first place.
AWB getting totally bulldozed by Foden a few weeks ago is a prime example.
It’s not long term. It’s literally like he said. 1 season. Look at Inter Milan that was done fairly quickly. It’s just all about how ruthless the board are willing to be and on top of that picking the right man.
We already wasted 3 years on a scammer.
The inability to get buy-in from the players has been bare to see. He means well and has ideas but he doesn't seem to have either the mandate or a force of personality to get players to push themselves out of their comfort zone. He's a caretaker in the very definition of the word.
No I think what people don’t understand why we brought in a consultant to manage.
But the backroom are so lost it was probably needed. However if we just got Conte when we should of. We would probably be 3rd now.
It’s pretty evident at this stage that these players are a bunch of shitebags. This is why I absolve Rangnick of most of the blame, these feckers would have downed tools regardless of who came in. It’s a blessing for the next guy that a lot of these players will be leaving at the end of the season.
Probably completely new information to the decision makers in the club. Pretty sure this is what all clued up fans would say, which is why I hope Ralf moves upstairs.
I do rate him he is a builder of clubs I am glad he got the interim job as the owners wrote of this season when they hired him. He has assessed the squad he knows which players to keep and to get rid of. I just hope that when he moves into his consultancy role that he is going to work with the next manager (Hope it's Ten Hag) to get the players he wants and more so build the club and get a clear one vision going forward. If he is not given that type of role then he will be wasted and the next manager will have the same problem again.
We won't be able to sell those players still under contract so that's all a big waste of time.
Nobody is coming in for Maguire and AWB etc. We are stuck with them. I even think we will end up loaning out AWB next season, probably back to Palace.
I agree those players we won't be able to I just hope like you said we loan them out or just make them aware they will not be automatic starters. With Rashfords contract with a year left I hope common sense will prevail.
I don't think RR implied that the players have given up with that statement. He was being descriptive rather than critical, and he tried to get across the message that we need to rethink our whole recruiting process.
We have too many players who pull away from 50/50s the moment they realize that the opposition player stands a (slightly) better chance of getting to the ball first. In fact, except for Bruno, our entire frontline consists of players like that. You can't always rely on rapid pace or finding the perfect pass and finish to beat defences. You have to make the defenders work for their meal, and we usually don't. Another thing, is the cursed second balls. One of the main qualities that allow both City and Liverpool to pin down teams and retain their attacking momentum is winning the second balls. This is actually where i disagree with Rangnick. He said this can be taught. It's true that it can improve with better spacing and better positioning, but i doubt you can teach things like awareness, anticipation and good reading of the game. I still remember when Klopp went to Liverpool and SAF's comments on Henderson (and Rodgers' response to them) were still fresh, the German was asked about it. His answer was that the analytics team indicated that no one in the PL wins more second balls than Henderson, and that this is a quality he needs in the side. Needless to say that both Pep and Klopp value it greatly. On the other hand, there's a reason why we, even under Solskjaer, resorted to McFred as our more well-functioning partnership in the middle of the park. Not because they are good with the ball (everybody can see that they are hopeless), but because they are the only players in the side who don't hesitate to throw their bodies in the fire and, most importantly, they are the only ones who actually react in the first crucial seconds after we lose the ball.
We need to start playing Moneyball in the market. We should identify what we lack as a team and then use the stats to tell us which players are the best fit for the team. It's a disgrace that it took us up till 2021 to hire a sports analyst. People need to realize that City and Liverpool not only have the best in class to manage them, they also use whatever tools available to help them focus on the first team preparations and improvement instead of running the whole club on their own. I believe that's what RR is talking about, but i doubt they'll listen to him.
I'm a big fan of Rashford. Obviously this season has been a total disaster for us and him but last season he got 33 goals and assists and was generally fine. This is the first season where he's really struggled in his career.
He won't be sold I don't think anyway. Hopefully Ten Hag can get him to rediscover his mojo.
I do think we could do with his knowledge of football. We need a few of his like around this place.
People keep mentioning this moneyball affect. Am I the only person who watched the film and thought wtf.
So basically we want United to sign a bunch of degenerate players who had good stats for specific things and we expect that to work? It’s so flawed.
Starting with a new Technical Director.
We have him as the one person who work closely with players and understood the issues. So ignoring him could prove to be a bad move, he should serve the consultancy role for 2 more years and give his assessment to the new manager.
Didn’t prove to be a great manager infact neither will with the current set of players but Ralf is direct in his speeches and doesn’t mince words to protect club or players.
Didn’t prove to be a great manager infact neither will with the current set of players but Ralf is direct in his speeches and doesn’t mince words to protect club or players.
I'm glad Rangnick is shining a light on these issues because we've clearly not had anyone at board level capable of identifying these problems for the last decade. I just hope he has some actual sway in terms of decision making for the future because that's obviously where he excels.
Well, Klopp is full of praise for his team. He even said that he would have never spotted Jota as a potential solution for his attack. He asked them about his height, since Liverpool rely on crosses to score goals, and they told him not to worry about it. We can do that. Or we can spend a king's ransom on Lukaku (because he's PL proven) or pay, give or take, 30 million pounds p/y for a 37 and a 35-year-old forward who both live on the service the others can provide them, when we struggle in the area of creativity.
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I think it has serious legs for a manager who knows exactly what he wants from each position. Pep clearly instructs his team to pick players that never give the ball away, stats are great for that, or a CDM that breaks up lots of attacks but barely leaves his own half. Or a full back with ridiculous recovery pace and stats.
Likewise for Klopp’s pressing game and what he needs from his strikers and full backs.
It has zero legs for our mish mash approach of selecting managers and playing styles.
i genuinely cannot cope with the fact that there is a piece of paper right now somewhere in old trafford that says "recruit players for the manager you have". As if, that is some kind of revolutionary idea.
I did not know my MUFC depression could reach new lows....but here we are. We have had to get someone in to spell it out to us in baby talk. That's how fecked the club structure is.
I did not know my MUFC depression could reach new lows....but here we are. We have had to get someone in to spell it out to us in baby talk. That's how fecked the club structure is.
Their job is to play, not be baffled by selections.
Also this almost feels like its players close to Rashford who would think this way.
Have they listened to any manager in the last 8 years?
They just want to do whatever they want, when they want, and get paid a lot of money for bringing 0 trophies home.
The modern Man United way.
Strange that these stories are believable given how all these contract renewal offer is being pushed out to players before the new manager appointment. Some players that are not doing well under RR, and same player don't fit the description of his advised profile (Second ball in the latest talking point)
Sadly, the idea that they've stopped listening to Rangnick has been fairly obvious for awhile. We are not a pressing team, we don't look like we're becoming a pressing team and these players know this guy's out in a month. They've long since given up the ghost.
I hope the club listens to Rangnick and begins recruiting in line with an idea and a plan. However, I am sceptical about this happening. Fully expect us to be sacking a manager within the next few years. Asking the same old questions about why he can't turn Maguire and Wan-Bissaka into the next Lucio and Cafu after we spent £130m on them.
He’s bang on about physicality. I swear our scouts much like this forum obsess over what a player does when they have the ball at their feet. Completely ignoring off the ball and the intensity/work rate/dynamism required to play to an elite level. Amad and DVB being prime examples. We can’t win the ball back. We have large periods where we chase shadows. You can’t sustain attacks if you can’t win duels. We have Mctominay and Fred the two players this forum shits on…and that’s it. None of our strikers can dominate centre backs, can run channels, do the hard yards. Bruno/Sancho constantly want the ball to feet, Elanga or rashford are the only threats in behind but they don’t make enough runs. Nobody presses with intensity - they constantly jog just to a set position. Outside of AWB our fullbacks have zero pace or any sort of engine and unfortunately AWB has no end product. Shaw will do a few runs and that’s it. Telles/Dalot are exceedingly average at every single metric there is. And then our CBs…if you want to play a high line I’m not convinced any of them suit front-foot defending. Varane and Lindelof like to sweep and contain, Maguire absolutely does not suit being isolated in wide areas. Plus we have a GK who never leaves his line. In short we’re nothing like the top teams of today - and it’s not due to a lack of technique which the experts on here think - it’s because off the ball both defensively and when attacking we lack intensity in our runs.
Here is Mourinho saying the exact same thing 4 years ago:
Here is Mourinho saying the exact same thing 4 years ago:
Reminds me of lingard's 'teamates' being baffled he wasn't playing.
Like it or not, this is why Rangnick is here. Forget top four cause top four is just sticking plaster. Our lot don't have a clue on how to run a football club. I was telling my mate the other day, our squad has been built horrendously. Just look at our attack for example, who complements who? You have 6 attackers and 5 are naturally selfish goal getters. Who does that?
The people responsible for this meds are still here and that's why Rangnick coming os the best dicisio this club has made in ages.
And when he talks about physicality, hes not talking about strength. Hes talking and stamina and inensity.
the cnuts in our fan base who hate Rashford and give him shit for being out of form and turn on Ralf for not starting him for being out of form. I personally think it was the wrong decision but I can also see why he made it. Bruno cant hold the line for shit up top and Marcus may have gotten free a few times but if RR thinks he is a shell of his former self right now then I can see the reluctance.These are sacrifices the club has to make. Getting rid of players at all cost. Imagine burdening Ten Hag with AWB.
All true.
Our squad feels like its been assembled by every player being looked at in isolation. On paper, every one of our squad is 'good'. You can compare basically all our players to other similar players and 'make their case.'
However, as you point out, that's not how football is done. It doesn't matter if, in abstract, Firmino isn't as good as striker as Ronaldo. In practice, within the context of a defined system and way of playing, does Firmino do what Liverpool want him to do better than any of our attackers could. Yes, 100%. You can't even ask the question in reverse because United don't have a style of play nor an idea they are striving towards.
Dale Winton may as well be our CEO because our whole approach to football is supermarket sweep: Grab anything of value from the shelves and try and figure out what to make of it later. When, inevitably, a coach fails to put everything we've chucked in our shopping trolley into something that makes sense, rather than asking: Have we picked up stuff that works together, we blame the manager and go looking for some messianic manager who can turn water into wine.
That's why I no longer even care who the next coach is. It doesn't matter if the way the club is run isn't addressed.
This is exactly what's going to happen. In fact it will be worse than that. The likes of Pereira and Martial will be back here in the summer, with the club reusing to take a loss of any kind, expecting Ten Hag to turn them into prime Litmanen and Kluivert.
Van de beek and Amad are not the problem here. It's the players that have been regulars in the first team that are the issue. It's something I've brought up for years on this forum and have repeated that our issue in this team is that we not only need technically good players but also players that are quick and mobile in defensive transition.
What Rangnick is saying isn't anything new and I've repeated the same lines for years. You need technical players as well as players who are strong in defensive transitions, hence I've always been against the idea of us signing players like Tielemans and Neves who are weak in the defensive transition if deployed in a higher defensive block. How many times have I mentioned Liverpool and their recruitment of big and fast CBs, their midfielders being extremely tenacious in defensive transition and the profile of player they generally target for the highly intensive play style of Jurgen Klopp?
Our problem when it comes to recruitment is the same problem too. We have hired managers who have all resorted to playing mid/low block football on the counter attack. Moyes, LVG, Mourinho and Ole, all ended up implementing a low block/mid block approach, which is a approach that looks to react to the opponent and not be proactive. So it shouldn't be a surprise that we ended up playing a reactive brand of football that relied on reacting to the opponent's mistakes on the counter attack. Whilst our rivals implemented a approach which was proactive and saw them sacrificing defensive stability for goals.
And Mourinho complaining about intensity is a bit rich when he personally brought in several players that weren't the most tenacious or mobile.
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