There's no such rule of thumb. There's an end in every sport, a limit, which the greats of the respective sports hit from time to time. As long as it isn't something like motorsports which doesn't depend on human capability, there's a point till which you can improve and it ends there.
Can there really be someone better than Messi in modern football?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are here to talk about United's dreadful home defeat at the hands of Big Ange's Tottenham Hotspur. Should this have been the end of Ten Hag? How long does he actually have left? And does Nik finally want ETH out?!
This video convinces me even more that Cruyff, Maradonna etc would have been better in the modern game, just absolutely brilliant.
And what end or saturation point is that in the context of being a footballer? Base on what does Messi set the limit with any certainty? People aren't even completely agreeable in this thread that Messi is distinctly better than Maradona or even Ronaldo as it is.
I gave my opinion on it in this post.
So yeah, for me, the game was perfected by someone in the 1930s, let alone in 2016.
You need sectioned.
Your opinion is very well justified for a sportsperson. It also mean there's very good argument that Messi is no better than some other greats that came before him. Pele, for example, I would say achieved no less success in his career. In that case, it is true no one would be better than Messi/Maradona/Pele but I'm certain there would be others in the future that's just as good. Ronaldo and Neymar both aren't far to be such a talent and they're already within Messi's generation.
Absolutely. Exactly what I mean.
People who think that Messi has mastered this sport and that there won't ever be someone better have a pretty poor imagination.
Messi is overall the best footballer of all time based on ability but no one can argue that he has reached perfection in everything he does with the ball.
Michael Jordan is widely recognized as the best basketball player of all time yet there have been players with better shooting, dunking, ball handling, passing etc. after him - just not all combined. But it is possible and one day there will be someone better in everything than him - same goes for Messi.
Messi is overall the best footballer of all time based on ability but no one can argue that he has reached perfection in everything he does with the ball.
Michael Jordan is widely recognized as the best basketball player of all time yet there have been players with better shooting, dunking, ball handling, passing etc. after him - just not all combined. But it is possible and one day there will be someone better in everything than him - same goes for Messi.
Ferdinand and Neville are two of the pundits.
For a player to be better than Messi, he'd have to win the WC, more league titles, more CL's, more than at least 498 goals and 201 assists (both will be even higher since Messi is 28), and break his records. Well, good luck to that guy I'd say.
Anthony Martial.
Source? Struggle to believe Gary Neville would rate Ronaldo over Messi, and Rio is obviously biased.
Source? Struggle to believe Gary Neville would rate Ronaldo over Messi, and Rio is obviously biased.
It's hard to imagine anyone combining that level of quality and consistency again with modern football as it is. For me that's the biggest argument for Messi being the best of all time; I'm not sure anyone has combined quality and consistency in the manner and to the extent that he has.
I think there is still scope there for a better player to emerge. Perhaps in terms of goals records might fall short but a better big match player, it is possible.
He is a freak of nature though in terms of his personality which is what makes him.so unique. .. he's like a cyborg.
He is a freak of nature though in terms of his personality which is what makes him.so unique. .. he's like a cyborg.
That's his problem. In the future cyborg players will be standard, he'll be seen as nothing special.
Only debate worth having will be mutants versus cyborgs. Romantics will prefer the unpredictable and often quite deranged mutants, whereas dull cnuts will prefer the cyborgs.
Scanning ahead, if modern football sees yet greater concentration of resources in the hands of a few elite clubs, and at the same time a yet more attacker-friendly (less contact, ever-improving surfaces) environment, then it's quite feasible that some once-in-a-generation superstar will come along and trump Messi's achievements.
Take men's athletics as an example. The margins of improvement in the men's 100m had basically dried up. It had become effectively impossible to go under 9.80 without drug assistance. Then Bolt came along, smashed the records, and tore up the conventions (the 5 '10 perfect build) that had been honed for over a century.
Take men's athletics as an example. The margins of improvement in the men's 100m had basically dried up. It had become effectively impossible to go under 9.80 without drug assistance. Then Bolt came along, smashed the records, and tore up the conventions (the 5 '10 perfect build) that had been honed for over a century.
I searched on google for 2 mins and couldn't find it but it is from a Ronaldo documentary. It has interviews from managers and players. It has Ferdinand saying he'd pick Ronaldo any day, Wenger says Messi is the better player and then G. Neville says Ronaldo is better.
Also the fact that Ronaldo won a Balon'dor while Messi was still playing ends the debate of Messi being better than Ronaldo without any arguments. I hope my point makes sense. In other words, saying Messi is better than Ronaldo is fine but you can't say it has been established that he is better as the debate of Ronaldo vs Messi is still a very valid one (even though Messi is winning it)
It's been established. Anyone who thinks Cristiano Ronaldo is a better player than Messi genuinely does need to be locked up with no access to football.
How about winning three world cups in a span of 12 years, being one of the best players in one and the standout player of the tournament in the other, while roughly netting around 1000 goals in between?
Point taken. But I'd say their fairly comparable, particularly if you're willing to rate the modern Champions League as equal to the World Cup in Pele's time (also worth noting that the over 1000 goal tally is fairly hotly disputed).How about winning three world cups in a span of 12 years, being one of the best players in one and the standout player of the tournament in the other, while roughly netting around 1000 goals in between?
Every generation thinks their great players are the pinnacle of whichever sport they follow. So far without fail someone comes along who at the very least challenges for the title greatest ever.
Eventually yes someone will most likely surpass Messi.
Eventually yes someone will most likely surpass Messi.
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Well, 1000 or not, he scored a shit load. Moreover his club performances weren't that far behind, he led Santos to back to back Copa Libertadores titles (the equivalent of the Champions League) against really strong teams of the time:
1962:
Santos: Gilmar, Lima, Mauro, Dalmão, Zito, Calvet, Dorval, Mengalvio,
Coutinho, Pelé, Pepe.
Peñarol: Maidana, Lezcano, Cano, E.González, Gonçálvez, Caetano, Rocha,
Matosas, Spencer, Sasía, Joya.
1963:
Boca Juniors: Errea, Magdalena, Orlando, Simeone, Rattín, Silveyra, Grillo,
Rojas, Menéndez, Sanfilippo, A.González.
Santos: Gilmar, Mauro, Geraldino, Dalmão, Zito, Calvet, Dorval, Lima,
Coutinho, Pelé, Pepe.
In those two years, he also led Santos to back to back Intercontinental cup wins (South America's best vs Europe's best)
1962:
Santos (Brazil) 3-2 (1-0) Benfica (Portugal)
1-0 31' Pelé
1-1 58' Santana
2-1 64' Coutinho
3-1 85' Pelé
3-2 87' Santana
Santos: Gilmar - Lima, Mauro, Calvet, Dalmo, Mengalvio, Zito, Dorval,
Coutinho, Pelé, Pepe.
Benfica: José Rita - Angelo, Humberto, Raúl, Cruz, Cavem, Coluna,
José Augusto, Santana, Eusébio, Simões.
Benfica (Portugal) 2-5 (0-2) Santos (Brazil)
0-1 15' Pelé
0-2 25' Pelé
0-3 48' Coutinho
0-4 64' Pelé
0-5 77' Pepe
1-5 85' Eusébio
2-5 89' Santana
Benfica: Costa Pereira - Jacinto, Germano or Humberto?, Raúl, Cruz,
Cavem, José Augusto, Santana, Eusébio, Coluna, Simões.
Coach: Fernando Riera.
Santos: Gilmar - Mauro, Dalmo, Olavo, Calvet, Zito, Dorval, Lima,
Coutinho, Pelé, Pepe.
Coach: Lula.
1-0 31' Pelé
1-1 58' Santana
2-1 64' Coutinho
3-1 85' Pelé
3-2 87' Santana
Santos: Gilmar - Lima, Mauro, Calvet, Dalmo, Mengalvio, Zito, Dorval,
Coutinho, Pelé, Pepe.
Benfica: José Rita - Angelo, Humberto, Raúl, Cruz, Cavem, Coluna,
José Augusto, Santana, Eusébio, Simões.
Benfica (Portugal) 2-5 (0-2) Santos (Brazil)
0-1 15' Pelé
0-2 25' Pelé
0-3 48' Coutinho
0-4 64' Pelé
0-5 77' Pepe
1-5 85' Eusébio
2-5 89' Santana
Benfica: Costa Pereira - Jacinto, Germano or Humberto?, Raúl, Cruz,
Cavem, José Augusto, Santana, Eusébio, Coluna, Simões.
Coach: Fernando Riera.
Santos: Gilmar - Mauro, Dalmo, Olavo, Calvet, Zito, Dorval, Lima,
Coutinho, Pelé, Pepe.
Coach: Lula.
If he was eligible for Ballon D'or during those two years, he would have easily won it.
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Yes, the idea that Pelé operated mainly for a Mickey Mouse team in a Mickey Mouse league seemingly refuses to die. It's tedious to say the least.
Question the man's abilities as such, if you must, but that Santos team were historically great, not some random collection of no-marks that allowed Pelé to shine in tournaments made up of Sunday league outfits.
Question the man's abilities as such, if you must, but that Santos team were historically great, not some random collection of no-marks that allowed Pelé to shine in tournaments made up of Sunday league outfits.
Pure ignorance really, he actually played for the best club side in the best league around.
Laudrup, Zico, Platini, Ronaldinho etc
LeTissier, Rivaldo, Batistuta, Eusebio, Charlton etc
Now that's a category he's arguably the greatest ever at doing.
The original Ronaldo and Zidane were of a similar level in my opinion. Both were just different styles of player, Ronaldo was also hamstrung by injuries.
I also think Ronaldinho was easily of the level of Messi, just lost the hunger to be a top level footballer for some reason.
Easy. You just have to break down his abilities and see if someone can do better in that category.
Finishing: Top tier, could do better with his weak foot and long range shots.
Passing: Top tier. From long range to through balls to one-two's, don't see how anyone can improve on his abilities here.
Dribbling: Again hard to see anyone do better than him. As good? Yes. Better? Highly unlikely.
Aerial ability: Average. Someone taller can easily surpass him here.
Balance: It's hard to think of anyone close to him in this regard, this trait is (IMO) extremely important, it means he can change directions at the speed in which he does it, the ability to ride tackles, withstand defenders pressure, even the way he controls the ball at speed. Anyone that can match him here is almost guaranteed to be short in stature, which virtually translates to average aerial ability.
Agility/Speed: Messi's sprint speed or 'top speed' although good, isn't anything special. Where he excels is in his ability to go from 0-60 extremely quickly and his speed with the ball at his feet. The former is invaluable when you're going past a defender, whilst the latter is key to maintaining your distance advantage afterwards. These two combined is why it seems so easy for him to run past defenders and score goals. At best anyone who wants to challenge him here will be hoping to match him. Ronaldo is faster, Bale is faster, Aubamayang is faster, but Messi is just more effective.
So just looking at a few categories, you can see that he has his weaknesses which others can match or surpass. What it all boils down to is first of all, how many people can match his strengths, second, how many of those people will be lucky enough to have prolonged careers to show their ability, out of these players, how many will go out and consistently put out performances at Messi's simply unmatched rate? Even then, will they have the mental ability to show up at the biggest games?
Let's say they do.
Now it's time for them to succeed the way he has, the trophies, the individual awards, the value he brings to football fans. To break or match the records he's set.
His records are long and impressive but this graphic here puts in perspective the sheer magnitude of Messi's impact in football.
Is it possible? Messi is living proof of it.
Finishing: Top tier, could do better with his weak foot and long range shots.
Passing: Top tier. From long range to through balls to one-two's, don't see how anyone can improve on his abilities here.
Dribbling: Again hard to see anyone do better than him. As good? Yes. Better? Highly unlikely.
Aerial ability: Average. Someone taller can easily surpass him here.
Balance: It's hard to think of anyone close to him in this regard, this trait is (IMO) extremely important, it means he can change directions at the speed in which he does it, the ability to ride tackles, withstand defenders pressure, even the way he controls the ball at speed. Anyone that can match him here is almost guaranteed to be short in stature, which virtually translates to average aerial ability.
Agility/Speed: Messi's sprint speed or 'top speed' although good, isn't anything special. Where he excels is in his ability to go from 0-60 extremely quickly and his speed with the ball at his feet. The former is invaluable when you're going past a defender, whilst the latter is key to maintaining your distance advantage afterwards. These two combined is why it seems so easy for him to run past defenders and score goals. At best anyone who wants to challenge him here will be hoping to match him. Ronaldo is faster, Bale is faster, Aubamayang is faster, but Messi is just more effective.
So just looking at a few categories, you can see that he has his weaknesses which others can match or surpass. What it all boils down to is first of all, how many people can match his strengths, second, how many of those people will be lucky enough to have prolonged careers to show their ability, out of these players, how many will go out and consistently put out performances at Messi's simply unmatched rate? Even then, will they have the mental ability to show up at the biggest games?
Let's say they do.
Now it's time for them to succeed the way he has, the trophies, the individual awards, the value he brings to football fans. To break or match the records he's set.
His records are long and impressive but this graphic here puts in perspective the sheer magnitude of Messi's impact in football.
Is it possible? Messi is living proof of it.
Easy. You just have to break down his abilities and see if someone can do better in that category.
Finishing: Top tier, could do better with his weak foot and long range shots.
Passing: Top tier. From long range to through balls to one-two's, don't see how anyone can improve on his abilities here.
Dribbling: Again hard to see anyone do better than him. As good? Yes. Better? Highly unlikely.
Aerial ability: Average. Someone taller can easily surpass him here.
Balance: It's hard to think of anyone close to him in this regard, this trait is (IMO) extremely important, it means he can change directions at the speed in which he does it, the ability to ride tackles, withstand defenders pressure, even the way he controls the ball at speed. Anyone that can match him here is almost guaranteed to be short in stature, which virtually translates to average aerial ability.
Agility/Speed: Messi's sprint speed or 'top speed' although good, isn't anything special. Where he excels is in his ability to go from 0-60 extremely quickly and his speed with the ball at his feet. The former is invaluable when you're going past a defender, whilst the latter is key to maintaining your distance advantage afterwards. These two combined is why it seems so easy for him to run past defenders and score goals. At best anyone who wants to challenge him here will be hoping to match him. Ronaldo is faster, Bale is faster, Aubamayang is faster, but Messi is just more effective.
So just looking at a few categories, you can see that he has his weaknesses which others can match or surpass. What it all boils down to is first of all, how many people can match his strengths, second, how many of those people will be lucky enough to have prolonged careers to show their ability, out of these players, how many will go out and consistently put out performances at Messi's simply unmatched rate? Even then, will they have the mental ability to show up at the biggest games?
Let's say they do.
Now it's time for them to succeed the way he has, the trophies, the individual awards, the value he brings to football fans. To break or match the records he's set.
His records are long and impressive but this graphic here puts in perspective the sheer magnitude of Messi's impact in football.
Is it possible? Messi is living proof of it.
I've seen that before the image, the issue is it's distorted, it doesn't say most assists out of any top league, all time top scorer out of any top league etc.
It's all La Liga.
People that say Ronaldo is better just don't watch enough of Messi imo.
There is a clear 2 or 3 levels of difference in their play. Messi is far more effective footballer and does things Ronaldo can only dream about doing.
People tend to just throw numbers and goals around to seal a debate which is ridiculous.
You are either too young to have seen the others play or you haven't seen Messi play.
Only peak fatty ronaldo can hold a candle to him of those mentioned.
Well considering I'm 34, I think I've seen all play through their careers. Zidane was a genius of levels I've never seen since, he controlled a football match from the centre of the pitch like a matador.
Messi is unreal, no doubt about it.
I lived through the Zidane too era and don't even think he is even on Ronaldo's level of greatness. He was a big game player no question but I watched a lot of Madrid in that era and he wasn't close to the consistency levels of Messi and Ronaldo. I firmly believe that Messi is the best ever. He is the best I have ever seen anyway.
You mean, can there really be another top club player who fails to do anything of note in the WC?
In Brazil, when Messi is supposed to be at his "peak," Argentina barely managed to squeeze through the easist group stages and even there Messi couldn't replicate his Barca magic, even with an all-star supporting cast including peak and on-form Aguero and Di Maria. Then got trounced in the final.
In Brazil, when Messi is supposed to be at his "peak," Argentina barely managed to squeeze through the easist group stages and even there Messi couldn't replicate his Barca magic, even with an all-star supporting cast including peak and on-form Aguero and Di Maria. Then got trounced in the final.
Agüero and Di María on form? 
Next you'll be saying Higuaín was superb.
Next you'll be saying Higuaín was superb.
Aguero and Di Maria were nowhere near top form. A 113th minute 1-0 goal after having had a similar amount of chances is not a trouncing.
Agüero and Di María on form?
Next you'll be saying Higuaín was superb.
Aguero scored 28 goals in 2013-14 prior to the WC and Di Maria had his best season ever you dolt. Whether or not the Argentinian team and Messi choked or underperformed in the WC is PRECISELY the question at hand.
The answer is yes.
That is precisely the question at hand. Choking on the biggest stage despite having had great, no fantastic seasons at their respective teams. On paper, and based on the prior season, that Argentinian team was the best Argentinian team we have seen in many years and maybe will ever see.
Take away Real Madrid and Barcelona and the billions of dollars they have in support and you're left with barely beating Bosnia and Iran on the biggest stage of all.
You worded it as if they were in form during the world cup. They weren't, you dolt.
Aguero was really underwhelming, I remember getting upset about how often he lost possession.
His records will stand for a long time.