Can there really be someone better than Messi in modern football?

Red_toad said:
Maradona performed at International level far better than Messi. I've still never seen a better player than Diego. Messi has no area of his skill set where he is better than him.
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True, but due to his size ánd skill levell, he manages to be quicker, he takes more steps in the same amount of time, has more touches and is generally like a tape played at 1.2 of the normal speed. That's what makes his dribbling so effective and look easy and makes him stand out. But in all round skill Maradona was defenitely better.

Mezano said:
Messi's stats are linked to a ridiculously talented Barcelona side. Given that there is an ever increasing consolidation of top talent at a small number of teams those records are likely to be broken in time unless football takes a different turn somewhere.
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That's why Messi should really decide two WC's by himself before he can even be considered to be the greatest. Players like Maradona and Cruijff were leaders and took their teams, their clubs and even their whole national football to a different level, while avoiding career ending tackles. That can't be beaten by goal stats, those are more a reflection of today's football than if his personal class.
 
I personally believe in my lifetime I won't see a better player than Messi.

Someone can score more goals or win more trophies than him but the talent he has just seems like it's at a level that nobody will reach.

I will never forget the match against City last season when he made City look like a second division team and made all his team mates look average compared to him.
 
Easily - and there will be someone within the next 40 years.
 
Red_toad said:
Maradona performed at International level far better than Messi. I've still never seen a better player than Diego. Messi has no area of his skill set where he is better than him.

For this thread I'd never say there will never be a better player than any player, as there are always areas a player is weak in.
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No area? Not even goalscoring?

I reckon just as many here who watched maradona, and believe he cannot be beat (or hasn't yet), people from messi's generation will feel the same way about him when they're older.
 
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Maybe a better goal scorer but not as good as him.
 
Red_toad said:
Maradona performed at International level far better than Messi. I've still never seen a better player than Diego. Messi has no area of his skill set where he is better than him.

For this thread I'd never say there will never be a better player than any player, as there are always areas a player is weak in.
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the CL is a higher level of competition than the world cup now, and messi slays it every year
 
Grylte said:
i think that Ronaldo would have been better if he was less selfish, and put the team ahead of himself.
He has the abilities and has a bigger and stronger body.
He has at some points been better, but it is a while ago.
And in the future, i think everyone will agree that Messi was over time the better of them.
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He can't dribble like Messi or pass like him. If he focused on those aspects throughout his career to somehow match Messi in that regard (he wouldn't) he almost certainly wouldn't have the goal record he has. Messi combines all 3.
 
Mezano said:
Messi's stats are linked to a ridiculously talented Barcelona side. Given that there is an ever increasing consolidation of top talent at a small number of teams those records are likely to be broken in time unless football takes a different turn somewhere.
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I think we are peaking at the level of consolidation. You can see it reversing in the prem. Same will happen in the next 5-10 years in germany and spain. maybe italy too. They need to for tv money reasons.
 
adexkola said:
The last sentence is hyperbole (repeated so many times it is accepted as fact). When all of them are performing at peak levels, Messi is on top, but not "significantly outshining".
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He is though. He does stuff as a matter of course that the two others can pull off once a month.
 
Red_toad said:
Maradona performed at International level far better than Messi. I've still never seen a better player than Diego. Messi has no area of his skill set where he is better than him.

For this thread I'd never say there will never be a better player than any player, as there are always areas a player is weak in.
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That is obviously not true. Messi is a far far better goalscorer. Also hits his peak performances more consistently.

Maradona was still a better playmaker, more capable of orchestrating play all over the pitch, arguably had even better sense of one-touch economy of play, had far more tenacity and leadership and had more flair.

Their vision, dribbling and passing is about par. Think it takes a fair dose of nostalgia to make the assessment you did, really.
 
Grylte said:
i think that Ronaldo would have been better if he was less selfish, and put the team ahead of himself.
He has the abilities and has a bigger and stronger body.
He has at some points been better, but it is a while ago.
And in the future, i think everyone will agree that Messi was over time the better of them.
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He never had the ability. His technique, passing and vision are several levels below.
 
It was Caf villain Rob Smyth who said "the arrogance of modernity dictates that the best we have ever seen becomes the best that ever there was".
 
I think its also a combination of a very compact style of today's football, where its an advantage to have insanely short legs.

If teams just played him deep he'd have more trouble like he does against italian sides, which still hold that style
 
Most greatest of all time did things in the international stage.

Zidane, Maradona, Ronaldo, Pele, Ronaldinho, Just about anyone except Messi.

I hope the guy wins it because it's the one thing that has held him back. It's not like he plays for Ecuador either.
 
fontaine said:
I think its also a combination of a very compact style of today's football, where its an advantage to have insanely short legs.

If teams just played him deep he'd have more trouble like he does against italian sides, which still hold that style
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Since when has he struggled against Italian sides? Complete horseshit.

He wasn't at his best against Inter once, that doesn't mean he has trouble against Italian sides. As ludicrous a suggestion as people who thinks he struggles against English sides.
 
Aldo said:
He has completely mastered the sport. You cannot use the ball better than he does, it's not possible.
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The game will evolve, though, as everything does - unless it's pretty much scrapped altogether, as Invictus hinted at (which is an intriguing and, in my opinion, not unrealistic prospect).

It's almost unthinkable to me that football will go on developing, changing, step by step (some more dramatic than others), over the coming decades - but without the emergence of a new player people will put on a pedestal at the time, and practically deify once he hangs up his boots (or whatever they'll wear in the future). It's happened at every stage so far, so unless there suddenly are no more stages, it will happen again.

It doesn't take someone using the ball better than Messi in the sense you imply: Messi isn't superior to Maradona, Pelé or Di Stefano in every aspect of his game - yet many people (who actually concede this) still consider him the greatest ever. That's one thing (and I know this wasn't your point). But more importantly, a shift in the game, a development, could easily see the emergence of a new way of using the ball. Which will make Messi's way of using the ball appear in a different light. The fanbois of the future will then simply argue that Messi's way wouldn't work in the modern game - and bang, he's out.

One pretty obvious predict-the-future point: In X years we could be looking at a game that has evolved beyond the current state in purely physical terms: This has happened throughout football history - there's always a way to speed things up a wee bit more, beef things up a wee bit more, make boots and footballs a wee bit lighter, or whatever the case may be...and before you know it, a new phase has been entered. People will go back to Messi's highlight reels and comment on how this or that has changed, and those who need it, will find plenty to support the argument that this or that is outdated and has been improved upon.
 
Yeah Messi had no problems destroying AC Milan's 2-0 lead already in the first half (?). Roma got pounded and Juve couldn't fully contain Messi either. Inter aside, where does this struggling against Italian sides come fron?
 
fontaine said:
I think its also a combination of a very compact style of today's football, where its an advantage to have insanely short legs.

If teams just played him deep he'd have more trouble like he does against italian sides, which still hold that style
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I don't agree. It was a clear pattern last season that Messi would grab the opener when teams were sitting deep. Then when they had to push up to get a goal, Neymar, fed by Messi, would kill them on the counter.
 
(C.)Ronaldo, perhaps the ultimate counter attacker in football history, would do better in italy? Big shout.
 
septic said:
There will of course be someone better eventually.
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It doesn't 'have' to be. It's been 58 years since Pele won his first World Cup, and he's still right up there.

In football, like in any sport, there's a limit till which you can improve, there's literally nothing left to do with the ball if you look at what guys like Messi and Pele can do with it.
 
Aldo said:
It doesn't 'have' to be. It's been 58 years since Pele won his first World Cup, and he's still right up there.

In football, like in any sport, there's a limit till which you can improve, there's literally nothing left to do with the ball if you look at what guys like Messi and Pele can do with it.
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Seriously, you still think pele is up there with Ronaldo (Brazilian), Messi, Maradona...I'd even go so far as to say Zidane, Best ( if you the quality Brazil had compared to Northern Ireland Best would be in the top three in the world ever on a global scale).
I know you can't compare eras sadly, but I really don't think hes up there with Messi. Best however had dribbling skills and goals only messi can get close to
 
I can envision a better footballer. Add more workrate, tenacity, force of will, physique, inventiveness and timing for strutting your stuff at the right moments on the right stage - that'd be a better footballer.

Imagine Messi, with strength on the ball like drogba or Adriano, drive like Tevez and Macherano, and flair like Ronaldinho. That'd be ridiculous.

Maradona is a fair bit closer to that image than Messi. But he didn't have the same goalscoring and consistency to his game.

It seems unlikely as hell. But the ceiling isn't hit yet.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
The game will evolve, though, as everything does - unless it's pretty much scrapped altogether, as Invictus hinted at (which is an intriguing and, in my opinion, not unrealistic prospect).

It's almost unthinkable to me that football will go on developing, changing, step by step (some more dramatic than others), over the coming decades - but without the emergence of a new player people will put on a pedestal at the time, and practically deify once he hangs up his boots (or whatever they'll wear in the future). It's happened at every stage so far, so unless there suddenly are no more stages, it will happen again.

It doesn't take someone using the ball better than Messi in the sense you imply: Messi isn't superior to Maradona, Pelé or Di Stefano in every aspect of his game - yet many people (who actually concede this) still consider him the greatest ever. That's one thing (and I know this wasn't your point). But more importantly, a shift in the game, a development, could easily see the emergence of a new way of using the ball. Which will make Messi's way of using the ball appear in a different light. The fanbois of the future will then simply argue that Messi's way wouldn't work in the modern game - and bang, he's out.

One pretty obvious predict-the-future point: In X years we could be looking at a game that has evolved beyond the current state in purely physical terms: This has happened throughout football history - there's always a way to speed things up a wee bit more, beef things up a wee bit more, make boots and footballs a wee bit lighter, or whatever the case may be...and before you know it, a new phase has been entered. People will go back to Messi's highlight reels and comment on how this or that has changed, and those who need it, will find plenty to support the argument that this or that is outdated and has been improved upon.
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Like I just mentioned, I don't believe there's any scope left for a player to further develop individually than someone like Messi. Tactics may evolve and change but when it comes to individual ability, it's your foot and the ball in front of you, end of. There's a limit till which you can learn how to use it. Someone like Messi can put his brain inside the ball, it acts precisely the way he wants it to. Of course, he does that under massive pressure in competitive games and that's what sets him apart, but there's really nothing left beyond a point. And it is independent of the tactics to a degree. We've seen top players right from Sindelar to Sarosi to Di Stefano to Pele to Cruyff to Maradona to Ronaldo Fenomeno and finally to Messi. All of these players are technically 100 out of 100. They didn't need to play in a particular formation or to a particular physical demand to achieve that, all those factors come into play more in a wider - team- sense. But not in an individual sense, specially technically. Handling a football is not a complicated thing to do, once you have the ability and understand the basics it's more than enough and that's what all these players did. We can debate about how much of that they actually brought to the pitch in every game and how much of that was counter-able, etc but in an isolated sense it's the end. The top tier, and there's nothing more left beyond that to learn. I mean, it's in every sport. It's an exercise, you learn it once and you are done with it.
 
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