I'm not really comparing the two, they both perfected the game in their own ways. You put them on the pitch, they'll make the ball do exactly what they want, simple as that.
Can there really be someone better than Messi in modern football?
- Thread starter VorZakone
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Will there be another Bolt, too?
Although it seems unlikely right now, I have to say, Yes. Unfortunately, I may not live long enough to see it: I think it will take a few more generations.
Although it seems unlikely right now, I have to say, Yes. Unfortunately, I may not live long enough to see it: I think it will take a few more generations.
But you can say that about so many players. Just off the top of my head in very recent times I'd say Xavi, Zidane, Scholes and pirlo. Yet they're not talked about in the same way.
What so many people forget is that when Pele played, Brazil were the bomb and the whole freaking squads are still talked about.
People don't say the same about Maradona and Mexico or Zidane and France. They dragged their team through, Pele never did.
Messi is a player I'm in absolute awe of. I've seen so many videos of Pele but I just dont see what he did was that amazing. There really are players in the same era who had a better touch, dribbling than Pele
Trust me, I know everyone has personal taste but I just don't get his hype. if he played in a more competitive competition it might be so different but it's like playing in the French league, winning it and scoring 60 a year. It was not a competitive league what he did.
Sorry for being a bit of a downer by the way
No, it's okay, but like I said I wasn't interested in a comparison of their careers, rather their technical abilities. I wouldn't say any of the names you mentioned included Zidane perfected the game in a way these players did. Zidane was never a great goal scorer, for example. To perfect the technical aspect of football you need to be able to create and score with equal ease (for attackers of course). Messi is as good as someone like Zidane or Pirlo when it comes to passing but neither are fit enough to tie the Argentine's shoe laces when it comes to shooting.
I think basically most would agree Messi is a freak we are priveledged to actually see. I thought I was lucky to see Scholes, Keane etc during our era, Romario, Stoichkov, Ronaldo and Ronaldinho for barca and s youn Ronaldo for Psv...looking back, damn I've seen some of the best ever players
My dad saw best and Charlton.
We had a pint and agreed we'd love to add Messi to our list as he'd top them all
Ps I played with greening in Scarborough and he did a robana penalty aged 18 that still sticks in my mind before he signed for us. I love memories
I don't think he's a freak, in terms of ability. In terms of consistency, he's a god damn freak and what really sets him apart. But what he can do with the ball, people have learnt to do that before. Johan Cruyff, for example, was precisely what a perfectionist should be. The man actually got bored with scoring goals coz he found it so easy so started learning everything else. Very soon, there was nothing left with the ball - passing, shooting, dribbling - that he wasn't perfect at. For a top tier player it comes naturally, it's not really a big deal to finish learning how to use a football. Best and Charlton are fine examples, but for example, neither could touch Maradona when it comes to passing.
Like a left-sided Messi..
How could you have better technique than Messi? I'm just not sure we'll see it.
We may see someone achieve better stats, but that could be down a number of reasons.
We may see someone achieve better stats, but that could be down a number of reasons.
Touch/technique doesn't look as good as Messi's. More about power and speed there.
They look immaculate to me. He's constantly knocking it perfectly while running at full pelt.
Carl Lewis was a known drug cheat even before 88 Olympics. So he isn't even the fastest guy of his generation.
Ironically, 1st, 2nd and 3rd were all drug cheats. Johnson pissed hot. Lewis pissed hot before the Olympics and it was covered up, and Christie tested for pseudo-ephedrine. A drug that other athletes were banned from sport for.
http://theislandjournal.com/2012/08/09/carl-lewis-who-cares-i-failed-drug-test/
I think his touch is a bit heavy personally. He's just good enough for it not to matter much, plus he just powers through.
A heavy touch is when the ball goes further than you want it to go, I don't see that here. He knows he'll reach the ball with his pace and acceleration, so he can knock it further.
I don't mean when he's knocking it on. He doesn't have as close control as Messi.
To come back to this thread, let's ask three questions.
Is it possible to pass the ball better than Messi does?
Is it possible to shoot the ball better than Messi does?
Is it possible to dribble better than Messi does?
etc.
No to all.
Is it possible to pass the ball better than Messi does?
Is it possible to shoot the ball better than Messi does?
Is it possible to dribble better than Messi does?
etc.
No to all.
He pretty much did, perhaps slightly lower but we are splitting hairs here. Of course Messi is the grand supreme of all time when it comes to close control so for anyone to match it is a heavy task, but it was virtually impossible to take the ball of Cruyff without fouling him. This is where difference in eras/rules/conditions is a problem. Unlike Messi, Cruyff had to also think about staying at a distance from his defenders, because no fouls were given for blatant pushes and pulling the player's shirt, etc. Messi has that luxury, that he can be right next to the defender without worrying about a physical hack incoming, as that would be a clear foul.
This is the infamous man marking Vogts did on Cruyff in 74. You cannot stay close to defenders in that era.
If you did, this is what will happen. No foul, of course. (Gentile and Zico, World Cup 1982)
Gentile taking the piss, again.
Last edited:
Yes to 1 (Xavi) and 2 (anyone with a better shoot conversion %)
Messi is a better passer than Xavi. Especially long range, it's not even close. And this is from someone who adores Xavi like few others. Messi cannot probably dictate play like Xavi but put both of them on the same spot on the pitch and ask them to put in a particular pass and Messi will win that duel, any day.
Shoot conversion rate doesn't automatically dictate better shooting technique.
Yeah, I hear ya. There is of course arguments of the quality of defenders/tactics improving too. Difficult to compare, but I think Messi is the better player (although not seeing both week in week out is a limiting factor).He pretty much did, perhaps slightly lower but we are splitting hairs here. Of course Messi is the grand supreme of all time when it comes to close control so for anyone to match it is a heavy task, but it was virtually impossible to take the ball of Cruyff without fouling him. This is where difference in eras/rules/conditions is a problem. Unlike Messi, Cruyff had to also think about staying at a distance from his defenders, because no fouls were given for blatant pushes and pulling the player's shirt, etc. Messi has that luxury, that he can be right next to the defender without worrying about a physical hack incoming, as that would be a clear foul.
This is the infamous man marking Vogts did on Cruyff in 74. You cannot stay close to defenders in that era.
If you did, this is what will happen. No foul, of course. (Gentile and Zico, World Cup 1982)
@adexkola If you really had to challenge Messi's passing, why not pick a far stronger case?
On par with Leo, and one I'd gladly accept as the number 1 as well.
On par with Leo, and one I'd gladly accept as the number 1 as well.
I'm not sure. Xavi's short game is peerless - I don't think Messi's has been as invariably and almost mechanically precise. As for his shooting, Messi's accuracy of finishing takes some beating. But from distance and with power? There have clearly been better.
@Aldo we have different definitions of mastery of passing, and I won't dispute that Messi's ability to split a defense exceeds that of Xavi, but the latter was able to singlehandedly impose his dominance on any midfield (international or club) at his peak through passing. But that wasn't Messi's job. I think that ultimately the complete package of what Messi does today can't be done by any other player.
We have to agree that Xavi's strengths lied more in his brain than his feet. His awareness, vision and tactical intelligence elevated him above anyone else, which is why he could open the game with three simple short passes. But that doesn't make him a better 'passer'. Players like Messi and Maradona can hit any range with three or four different ways to execute the same pass. Specially Diego, who would take the piss with backheels, rabonas and what not. Basically what I am comparing is raw technique, it's another thing how to use that technique which is why someone with an inferior passing technique like Xavi could still open up the game as easily as Maradona would with a much more elaborate effort. But when it comes to raw technique, the two Argentines take the biscuit here. Maradona, specially is widely acknowledged as the greatest passer of all time, which I pretty much agree with. Weight, precision, creativity, vision, absolute insane and supernatural at times.
Messi rarely goes for power and distance but when he does the keeper stands no chance whatsoever. He doesn't try it often which is why it's tough to compare it with those who had it as their speciality but it's still there to see what he can do from distance. Requires very little backlift as well.
^Good points.
'Passing ability' can be dissected into many sections. Like how much of Messi's ability is down to the fact he has insane standing-still dribbling ability/acceleration, so a drop of the shoulder usually means he is passing in motion i.e where the pitch is opened up and he has clear runners. Going to simplify the argument here but that is opposed to Xavi, who whilst is very nimble on the turn, operates in tighter spaces and plays passes from different situations.
That's just one aspect of it.
'Passing ability' can be dissected into many sections. Like how much of Messi's ability is down to the fact he has insane standing-still dribbling ability/acceleration, so a drop of the shoulder usually means he is passing in motion i.e where the pitch is opened up and he has clear runners. Going to simplify the argument here but that is opposed to Xavi, who whilst is very nimble on the turn, operates in tighter spaces and plays passes from different situations.
That's just one aspect of it.
I think I misunderstood your point, as I thought you were highlighting a particular Messi trait (his “use of the ball” as a more comprehensive thing than what we usually call technique, which would be something more basic) but if you simply mean that his ability on the ball is, well, flawless – then yes, I agree. But that goes for a number of other players too, as you admit yourself, including players who aren't even in the “great” bracket: They could make the ball go wherever they wanted, in theory – but they were rash, or lacked nous, or didn't handle physical or mental (or both) pressure well enough.
The basic “use the ball” ability isn't a standout trait at all, in other words, if we're talking historically great players – there's ultimately always something else which makes a player great.
On Xavi's passing versus Messi's...it's a tough call. I think the basic difference is how adventurous each were/are. Both are capable of stunning passes of all variations but Xavi often held back in favour of a safer pass whereas Messi goes for the throat. Which is understandable, both are the right calls for their position.
Would give it to Messi overall, but I think Xavi's through ball/long range passing is underrated because he chose shorter options so didn't display that ability as often as he could have.
Would give it to Messi overall, but I think Xavi's through ball/long range passing is underrated because he chose shorter options so didn't display that ability as often as he could have.
I watched that Maradona passing video and I think Messi's passing looks clearly better. Not sure if those really were Maradona's best passes ever but Messi's passing compilations look more impressive to me.
Comparing videos from previous eras doesn't really work that for quite a lot of reasons. There's more content available now to make these highlight reels, pitches and balls are better.
But one of the biggest things is actually the HD effect and the camera angles we have now. It makes a fecking shit load of difference, and everything just looks so much better. Even things from the early 00s look so much less impressive on video now. On the other hand, the game actually looks a lot less impressive/more imperfect watching it at the stadium.
But one of the biggest things is actually the HD effect and the camera angles we have now. It makes a fecking shit load of difference, and everything just looks so much better. Even things from the early 00s look so much less impressive on video now. On the other hand, the game actually looks a lot less impressive/more imperfect watching it at the stadium.
One thing you need to keep in mind is that the Barcalona's team of the past decade from Rijkaard and Guardioloa onwards have all the tactical fluidity and player ability to get the best out of every single player on the pitch.
So I guess it's bit of a chicken and egg scenario and similar to the the NBA's Spurs' and Pop Gregovich's teams.
Messi has played in a front three that has included the likes of Henry, Eto'o, Villa, Suarez, Neymar, Pedro, Sanchez etc etc.
I dislike Carrick with a passion but how much would he have benefited/improved/stayed consistent if he had played with Ronaldo, Tevez, Rooney (where he was very good to great) then moved to another 3/4/5 equally compable front players in a consistent tactical team?
I guess what I'm really trying to say is Busquets is a good player playing in a great team and his abilities compliment greatly in said team but that doesn't make him a great player.
Thus with that, how much does that influence how we rate Messi, Xavi, Iniesta etc compared to their contemporaries?
So I guess it's bit of a chicken and egg scenario and similar to the the NBA's Spurs' and Pop Gregovich's teams.
Messi has played in a front three that has included the likes of Henry, Eto'o, Villa, Suarez, Neymar, Pedro, Sanchez etc etc.
I dislike Carrick with a passion but how much would he have benefited/improved/stayed consistent if he had played with Ronaldo, Tevez, Rooney (where he was very good to great) then moved to another 3/4/5 equally compable front players in a consistent tactical team?
I guess what I'm really trying to say is Busquets is a good player playing in a great team and his abilities compliment greatly in said team but that doesn't make him a great player.
Thus with that, how much does that influence how we rate Messi, Xavi, Iniesta etc compared to their contemporaries?
I don't see Messi as having better technique than Maradona but he has found a better balance between skills and goalscoring.
That's my point. Eventually someone like Messi came around to raise the argument again of who's better than Maradona, and someone is bound to come around again in the future to do it against Messi. Unless you mean to say the world ends tomorrow, then yes, it's impossible someone can be better than Messi.
Messi plays for Barca, Maradona's in a very average Argentina side. Maradona's lifted them to heights they had no right achieving. Unfair comparison Barc Messi era v Argentina of the Maradonna era. Compare them in their national teams, Maradona's performances were way way better & i'd say Argentina have a better team now. In addition to Messi being over protected by referees, something which Maradona's never got, he was hacked to bits as whatever team he played in, he was their best player.
Adding to that, Maradona shone in Serie A during the 80s when that league was a class of its own.
Ahhhhh, yes, dem mythical olden days, where defenses used to be practically unbreachable. Especially Italian ones.
Great header tbf!Ahhhhh, yes, dem mythical olden days, where defenses used to be practically unbreachable. Especially Italian ones.
Ever?
Many of you will disagree with me but the fact is that many people/pundits/players believe Ronaldo is the better player. Due to the sheer amount of people (myself included) that rate rate Ronaldo higher, Messi is not even definitely the best right now but arguably the best of his generation.
In other words, of course there will be. A more suited debate would be if he is currently the best (which most believe to be but a sizeable portion also disagree)
Many of you will disagree with me but the fact is that many people/pundits/players believe Ronaldo is the better player. Due to the sheer amount of people (myself included) that rate rate Ronaldo higher, Messi is not even definitely the best right now but arguably the best of his generation.
In other words, of course there will be. A more suited debate would be if he is currently the best (which most believe to be but a sizeable portion also disagree)
Maradona still shades it for me. I wouldn't kick Messi out of bed though.
Example of one goal defines the league, really? Great arugment. In any case, where did I say Serie A defenses were unbreachable? It's no myth Serie A was the top league where most of the big names played during the mid 80s to 90s.Ahhhhh, yes, dem mythical olden days, where defenses used to be practically unbreachable. Especially Italian ones.
Who are these 'many people/pundits/players'?
That was one particular game and that space is a result of Sacchi's insane high line that he played at Milan. No chance that it reflects the average defensive line of Serie A teams of that era. e.g. watch Napoli vs Juve in the same season.Ahhhhh, yes, dem mythical olden days, where defenses used to be practically unbreachable. Especially Italian ones.
That doesn't make any sense. Will someone run faster than Bolt? Maybe.. will someone run the 100 metres in 3 seconds? No. There's a limit to human capability. Meaning at some point "Will someone be faster than X?" will definitely be answered "No.".
There's also a saturation point for talent -- however immeasurable. It will happen some day and there's a decent chance Messi is that.