Moby
Dick
I'm not really comparing the two, they both perfected the game in their own ways. You put them on the pitch, they'll make the ball do exactly what they want, simple as that.but I really don't think hes up there with Messi
I'm not really comparing the two, they both perfected the game in their own ways. You put them on the pitch, they'll make the ball do exactly what they want, simple as that.but I really don't think hes up there with Messi
But you can say that about so many players. Just off the top of my head in very recent times I'd say Xavi, Zidane, Scholes and pirlo. Yet they're not talked about in the same way.I'm not really comparing the two, they both perfected the game in their own ways. You put them on the pitch, they'll make the ball do exactly what they want, simple as that.
No, it's okay, but like I said I wasn't interested in a comparison of their careers, rather their technical abilities. I wouldn't say any of the names you mentioned included Zidane perfected the game in a way these players did. Zidane was never a great goal scorer, for example. To perfect the technical aspect of football you need to be able to create and score with equal ease (for attackers of course). Messi is as good as someone like Zidane or Pirlo when it comes to passing but neither are fit enough to tie the Argentine's shoe laces when it comes to shooting.Sorry for being a bit of a downer by the way
I think basically most would agree Messi is a freak we are priveledged to actually see. I thought I was lucky to see Scholes, Keane etc during our era, Romario, Stoichkov, Ronaldo and Ronaldinho for barca and s youn Ronaldo for Psv...looking back, damn I've seen some of the best ever playersNo, it's okay, but like I said I wasn't interested in a comparison of their careers, rather their technical abilities. I wouldn't say any of the names you mentioned included Zidane perfected the game in a way these players did. Zidane was never a great goal scorer, for example. To perfect the technical aspect of football you need to be able to create and score with equal ease (for attackers of course). Messi is as good as someone like Zidane or Pirlo when it comes to passing but neither are fit enough to tie the Argentine's shoe laces when it comes to shooting.
I don't think he's a freak, in terms of ability. In terms of consistency, he's a god damn freak and what really sets him apart. But what he can do with the ball, people have learnt to do that before. Johan Cruyff, for example, was precisely what a perfectionist should be. The man actually got bored with scoring goals coz he found it so easy so started learning everything else. Very soon, there was nothing left with the ball - passing, shooting, dribbling - that he wasn't perfect at. For a top tier player it comes naturally, it's not really a big deal to finish learning how to use a football. Best and Charlton are fine examples, but for example, neither could touch Maradona when it comes to passing.I think basically most would agree Messi is a freak
Like a left-sided Messi..
They look immaculate to me. He's constantly knocking it perfectly while running at full pelt.Touch/technique doesn't look as good as Messi's
I'd definitely say, 'yes'.
Will someone ever run faster than Carl Lewis? Yes
Will someone ever be able to win more than Roger Federer? Yes (Djokovic is on target to do this).
Will someone ever be able to beat Steffi Graf's records? Yes (Williams should achieve this within 12 months).
Will someone ever be able to score more home runs than Babe Ruth? Yes
Will someone ever be better than Messi. Yes.
As a rule of thumb, in all sports, there will ALWAYS be someone better. There is no exception to this rule.
They look immaculate to me. He's constantly knocking it perfectly while running at full pelt.
A heavy touch is when the ball goes further than you want it to go, I don't see that here. He knows he'll reach the ball with his pace and acceleration, so he can knock it further.I think his touch is a bit heavy personally.
A heavy touch is when the ball goes further than you want it to go, I don't see that here. He knows he'll reach the ball with his pace and acceleration, so he can knock it further.
He pretty much did, perhaps slightly lower but we are splitting hairs here. Of course Messi is the grand supreme of all time when it comes to close control so for anyone to match it is a heavy task, but it was virtually impossible to take the ball of Cruyff without fouling him. This is where difference in eras/rules/conditions is a problem. Unlike Messi, Cruyff had to also think about staying at a distance from his defenders, because no fouls were given for blatant pushes and pulling the player's shirt, etc. Messi has that luxury, that he can be right next to the defender without worrying about a physical hack incoming, as that would be a clear foul.He doesn't have as close control as Messi.
To come back to this thread, let's ask three questions.
Is it possible to pass the ball better than Messi does?
Is it possible to shoot the ball better than Messi does?
Is it possible to dribble better than Messi does?
etc.
No to all.
Messi is a better passer than Xavi. Especially long range, it's not even close. And this is from someone who adores Xavi like few others. Messi cannot probably dictate play like Xavi but put both of them on the same spot on the pitch and ask them to put in a particular pass and Messi will win that duel, any day.Yes to 1 (Xavi) and 2 (anyone with a better shoot conversion %)
He pretty much did, perhaps slightly lower but we are splitting hairs here. Of course Messi is the grand supreme of all time when it comes to close control so for anyone to match it is a heavy task, but it was virtually impossible to take the ball of Cruyff without fouling him. This is where difference in eras/rules/conditions is a problem. Unlike Messi, Cruyff had to also think about staying at a distance from his defenders, because no fouls were given for blatant pushes and pulling the player's shirt, etc. Messi has that luxury, that he can be right next to the defender without worrying about a physical hack incoming, as that would be a clear foul.
This is the infamous man marking Vogts did on Cruyff in 74. You cannot stay close to defenders in that era.
If you did, this is what will happen. No foul, of course. (Gentile and Zico, World Cup 1982)
I'm not sure. Xavi's short game is peerless - I don't think Messi's has been as invariably and almost mechanically precise. As for his shooting, Messi's accuracy of finishing takes some beating. But from distance and with power? There have clearly been better.To come back to this thread, let's ask three questions.
Is it possible to pass the ball better than Messi does?
Is it possible to shoot the ball better than Messi does?
Is it possible to dribble better than Messi does?
etc.
No to all.
Xavi's short game is peerless
We have to agree that Xavi's strengths lied more in his brain than his feet. His awareness, vision and tactical intelligence elevated him above anyone else, which is why he could open the game with three simple short passes. But that doesn't make him a better 'passer'. Players like Messi and Maradona can hit any range with three or four different ways to execute the same pass. Specially Diego, who would take the piss with backheels, rabonas and what not. Basically what I am comparing is raw technique, it's another thing how to use that technique which is why someone with an inferior passing technique like Xavi could still open up the game as easily as Maradona would with a much more elaborate effort. But when it comes to raw technique, the two Argentines take the biscuit here. Maradona, specially is widely acknowledged as the greatest passer of all time, which I pretty much agree with. Weight, precision, creativity, vision, absolute insane and supernatural at times.but the latter was able to singlehandedly impose his dominance on any midfield (international or club) at his peak through passing.
Messi rarely goes for power and distance but when he does the keeper stands no chance whatsoever. He doesn't try it often which is why it's tough to compare it with those who had it as their speciality but it's still there to see what he can do from distance. Requires very little backlift as well.But from distance and with power? There have clearly been better.
Like I just mentioned, I don't believe there's any scope left for a player to further develop individually than someone like Messi. Tactics may evolve and change but when it comes to individual ability, it's your foot and the ball in front of you, end of. There's a limit till which you can learn how to use it. Someone like Messi can put his brain inside the ball, it acts precisely the way he wants it to. Of course, he does that under massive pressure in competitive games and that's what sets him apart, but there's really nothing left beyond a point. And it is independent of the tactics to a degree. We've seen top players right from Sindelar to Sarosi to Di Stefano to Pele to Cruyff to Maradona to Ronaldo Fenomeno and finally to Messi. All of these players are technically 100 out of 100. They didn't need to play in a particular formation or to a particular physical demand to achieve that, all those factors come into play more in a wider - team- sense. But not in an individual sense, specially technically. Handling a football is not a complicated thing to do, once you have the ability and understand the basics it's more than enough and that's what all these players did. We can debate about how much of that they actually brought to the pitch in every game and how much of that was counter-able, etc but in an isolated sense it's the end. The top tier, and there's nothing more left beyond that to learn. I mean, it's in every sport. It's an exercise, you learn it once and you are done with it.
I don't see Messi as having better technique than Maradona but he has found a better balance between skills and goalscoring.How could you have better technique than Messi? I'm just not sure we'll see it.
We may see someone achieve better stats, but that could be down a number of reasons.
That's my point. Eventually someone like Messi came around to raise the argument again of who's better than Maradona, and someone is bound to come around again in the future to do it against Messi. Unless you mean to say the world ends tomorrow, then yes, it's impossible someone can be better than Messi.I dunno.. Messi and Ronaldo are special characters as well as talents. What will really show how great they are is when they retire, and an amazing BPITW season goes back to being a 40-45 goal season.
the CL is a higher level of competition than the world cup now, and messi slays it every year
Adding to that, Maradona shone in Serie A during the 80s when that league was a class of its own.Messi plays for Barca, Maradona's in a very average Argentina side. Maradona's lifted them to heights they had no right achieving. Unfair comparison Barc Messi era v Argentina of the Maradonna era. Compare them in their national teams, Maradona's performances were way way better & i'd say Argentina have a better team now. In addition to Messi being over protected by referees, something which Maradona's never got, he was hacked to bits as whatever team he played in, he was their best player.
Adding to that, Maradona shone in Serie A during the 80s when that league was a class of its own.
Great header tbf!Ahhhhh, yes, dem mythical olden days, where defenses used to be practically unbreachable. Especially Italian ones.
Example of one goal defines the league, really? Great arugment. In any case, where did I say Serie A defenses were unbreachable? It's no myth Serie A was the top league where most of the big names played during the mid 80s to 90s.Ahhhhh, yes, dem mythical olden days, where defenses used to be practically unbreachable. Especially Italian ones.
Ever?
Many of you will disagree with me but the fact is that many people/pundits/players believe Ronaldo is the better player. Due to the sheer amount of people (myself included) that rate rate Ronaldo higher, Messi is not even definitely the best right now but arguably the best of his generation.
In other words, of course there will be. A more suited debate would be if he is currently the best (which most believe to be but a sizeable portion also disagree)
That was one particular game and that space is a result of Sacchi's insane high line that he played at Milan. No chance that it reflects the average defensive line of Serie A teams of that era. e.g. watch Napoli vs Juve in the same season.Ahhhhh, yes, dem mythical olden days, where defenses used to be practically unbreachable. Especially Italian ones.
I'd definitely say, 'yes'.
Will someone ever run faster than Carl Lewis? Yes
Will someone ever be able to win more than Roger Federer? Yes (Djokovic is on target to do this).
Will someone ever be able to beat Steffi Graf's records? Yes (Williams should achieve this within 12 months).
Will someone ever be able to score more home runs than Babe Ruth? Yes
Will someone ever be better than Messi. Yes.
As a rule of thumb, in all sports, there will ALWAYS be someone better. There is no exception to this rule.