WC All-time All-Stars 2nd Round Polaroid vs Crappy/Pippa

Who will win this game based on the World Cup peak of all players?


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Moby

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The aim of this poll is to decide who will come up victorious in a hypothetical match between the two teams. ONLY THE WORLD CUP FORM OF THE PLAYERS IN QUESTION IS CONSIDERED. CLUB FORM IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.



Polaroid's Tactics


DEFENSE
The defense is comprised of some great World Cup pedigree in some proper heavyweights. Moore and Santamaria would guard the middle. Santamaria the best cb of the 50s and one of the top 2 or 3 manmarkers of all time will be on Fontaine, leaving Moore as the covering defender. For the covering role the most important qualities are really reading of the game, awareness and anticipation. In those aspects, it is nigh on impossible to find one better than Moore, whose prescient anticipation and reading of the game led to jock stein saying that there should a law against it as moore was 20 min ahead of everybody else in the game. Minding the flanks are Cohen and Maldini. Since the opposition won't likely have an out and out wide presence on the left, Cohen can easily tuck in with the CBs providing a compact defensive line while Maldini's job is fairly simple, to track Garrincha the whole time. Moore often played as the left center back so with Maldini taking care of Garrincha and Moore covering, we can curb his influence to an extent.
MIDFIELD
Breitner and Zito form the double pivot with Zito being the defensive midfielder while Breitner has the freedom to play his favoured box to box role. Between the two of them they have the job to contain Kopa. Given the fact that crappy's midfield two wouldn't trouble us much when it comes to attacking, these two would have a fair amount of time and space to cut the service from Kopa to the attack. With Fontaine tightly man marked and Kopa's service being intercepted by two very strong DMs, the attack shouldn't be as dangerous as it looks on paper. Thirdly, the midfield is completed with Diego Maradona, who will be the heart of the team pulling the strings and taking on players regularly. Dunga and Silva, while an excellent CM pair should find it difficult in dealing with Diego, like anyone else would given this is the 86 form he is in.
ATTACK
Starting with Boniek, he will have a free roaming role like he did in the last game, dropping in at unexpected areas to either link up play through the middle or stretch his defense out wide, his energy, work rate and flair would allow to create chaos in his defense third who are already dealing with Maradona. These two combined would create openings for the forwards. On the other side, Rivaldo will be playing as a Second Striker, using his movement, passing and goalscoring to great effect. He formed a deadly partnership with Ronaldo and IMO was the best attacking player in 2002, so containing him would be difficult. Finally, Eusebio who was in unstoppable scoring form in 66 will lead the line. With the service given to him with his own ability to create chances out of nothing and take on defenses alone he would be finding net without question.
FLUIDITY
The front four is comprised of extremely versatile players who were hard working as well and would add a continuous fluid flow to attack, with them interchanging easily. Rivaldo, Eusebio and Maradona are all equally capable of dropping deep to help the midfield and start attacks or going up front and finish the chances. All had excellent scoring records in their peak WCs. Boniek as we all know is even ahead of them when it comes to multitasking. So, with this given fluidity and movement, it will be impossible to mark one of the players. The most effective way of stopping Diego has usually been man marking him, but that will not be possible here and the movement will drag his defenders all over the pitch.​



TEAM POLAROID



Vs

TEAM CRAPPY/PIPPA




 

Moby

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Crappy/Pippa's Tactics
Why we will win:

- Key Partnerships

At this stage, every team has a group of high-quality players. However, what moves those players to the next level are the partnerships that made them great in the first place. Unlike our opponent, we have natural partnerships which have thrived at World Cups, in key areas of the game.

Fontaine-Kopa: The Top Scorer of the 1958 World Cup and the to Ballon'dor winner of 1958 World Cup together. Starring for France, they combined to score 16 goals and assist 12 goals. An amazing partnership with a near telepathic understanding of each other on the pitch. "'Justo' was the striker who best suited my style of play," added Raymond Kopa, voted Best Player at Sweden 1958 [...] "He knew exactly what I was doing and I could be sure of finding him at the end of one of my dribbles."

Dunga-Silva: Two colossal midfielders who were paired together for the victorious 1994 Brasil side. Recognised as the "anti-thesis of joga bonito", Dunga and Mauro Silva justified their selections by becoming one of the strongest holding midfield pairs the World Cup has ever seen. Keeping almost everything out, Dunga and Silva were masterful in shielding the defence to give enough stability to win the World Cup.

- Explosive attackers

Arguably the best attacking group in the draft with Fontaine, Kopa, Garrincha, Rivelino. They combine for 23 goals and 17 assists, a number not matched by any team in the draft.

Mané Garrincha will use his explosive ability to repeatedly get to the by-line to cross for Fontaine. Fontaine's aerial ability was great, as he was quoted saying "I jump so high to head the ball that when I come down again I have snow in my hair." Garrincha, who had a stunning World Cup in 1962, will be a huge threat for the opposition and will need to be double or even triple-marked to negate his influence on the match.

Kopa and Rivelino are both natural playmakers who can go for goal very easily. They are both known as two of the greatest dribblers of their era, and can both weave in and out of defences. Give Rivelino too much space and he can score an "Atomic Goal" - the nickname given for his screamer against the Czechs in 1970. Give Kopa too much space and he can create a chance for Fontaine like he did consistently in 1958.

Maradona on Rivelino: "When I was a kid I used to watch Brazil play. I wasn’t bothered about what Pele was doing, though. I used to watch out for Rivelino, on the other side of the pitch. He was everything I wanted to be as a player. His dribbling was flawless, his passes perfect and his shots unstoppable."

There are simply too many danger-men to mark. Fontaine is the type of centre forward who could take up two central defenders - in the same goal-scoring vein as Müller, Romário and Ronaldo. Garrincha is just too good - like Maradona - to be marked by one man. Kopa and Rivelino are too gifted to be given opportunities to create, and put away chances. With our opponent playing an attacking set-up, we will no doubt score goals.

-Reducing Maradona's Influence

There is no getting around it. Diego is the ultimate player to have in a WC draft or probably any football draft. But if you are going to assume that he alone is enough to win any match then there is no point to these drafts. Now, obviously our opponent will look to bring out the best in Maradona. However, we have the best defensive line up possible to counter him.

Maradona on Passarella: "He’s the best defender I’ve ever seen, and the best header of a ball too – in attack as well as defence."

Karl-Heinz Förster - 4 time German defender of the year, successfully man-marked the likes of Platini, Rummenigge, Hugo Sánchez

Berti Vogts - 5 time German defender of the Year, successfully man-marked Johan Cruyff in the 1974 World Cup final

Krol
was voted into two all-star teams in 1974 and 1978, and is most definitely one of the best LBs ever in WC history.

Silva and Dunga - one of the strongest midfield pairings in World Cup history, arguably the two finest holding midfielders in Brazilian football history. Contesting the middle of the park, with two men in the same zone as Maradona.

It will be difficult for Maradona to work his magic. Especially when there will be little width due to the lack of natural wingers - Zizinho was an inside right in 1950, Rivaldo was basically an inside left in 2002, Boniek wasn't a touchline winger in 1982. He would have to rely on his fullbacks for width - and does he really want that with Garrincha and Rivelino as the wingers on the opposition?

The plan is to congest the middle of the park so there is less space for Maradona to work. Not to mention that likes of Dunga, Silva, Forster, Vogts are not going to allow Maradona to dribble all the way to the goal. Maradona, like Garrincha, is too good for only one man to mark. However, unlike Maradona, Garrincha will regularly be finding himself on the wing in 1v1 opportunities.

Our last line of defence is Gianluigi Buffon, one of the stars of the 2006 World Cup. Not one who made his reputation from one match, but one who has the ability and leadership to keep out just about everything. Buffon did not concede a goal from open play by the opposition in his World Cup.

- Defense to Attack

The beauty of having Dunga-Silva in the middle is that they allow attack minded defenders like Krol and Passarella to venture forward when needed. Infact Krol-Passarella on left side of the defense compliment each other perfectly, Krol is comfortable playing anywhere across the back line and can easily cover for Passarella if he goes on his surging forward runs to score a goal. Having several all round footballers will allow to attack in numbers and defend with little open space.

- WC Pedigree

Finally a reminder that this being the WC draft, our players have a great WC pedigree behind them and possibly there is not even a need to upgrade any of them.
- Someone like Yashin may be an upgrade but Buffon is right up there with the best of all time.
- Passarella led Argentina to their first WC win.
- Forster was a rock for Germany when they reached 2 WC finals in a row.
- Krol/Vogts are contenders for best full backs in WC history featuring in 2 all star teams.
- Garrincha-Rivelino is hands down the best winger combo possible.
- Both Kopa-Fontaine and Silva-Dunga pairs may be un-glamorous ones but statistically Kopa-Fontaine are one the best attacking pair ever and Dunga/Silva were the spine of a WC winning team.
 
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crappycraperson

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TEAM CRAPPY & PIPPA - PLAYER PROFILES

CF: Just Fontaine (1958) - France
6 matches, 13 goals, 3 assists, WC1958 3rd place , WC1958 Golden Boot, Bronze Ball & All Star team

Statistically the best World Cup ever out of a forward. Fontaine directly contributed to 70% of France's goals scored in 1958. He scored in every match that he played, including 4 goals against West Germany in the 3rd-place match. Fontaine's single World Cup in 1958 ranks him 4th all time in World Cup goals; those ahead of him have all played in 2 or more tournaments.

AM: Raymond Kopa (1958) - France
6 matches, 3 goals, 9 assists, WC1958 3rd place, WC1958 All Star team, 1958 Ballon'dor winner


For a playmaker in any era, these numbers in a single World Cup are eye-catching. Kopa was one of the stars of the 1958 World Cup, and his performances for both club and country earned him the Ballon d'Or in 1958. Kopa struck up a fruitful partnership with Fontaine which saw them combine together for several of Fontaine's 13 goals. Nicknamed "The Napoleon of Football", Kopa is one of the most gifted and intelligent playmakers of his era.

RW - Garrincha - Brazil (1962)
WC 1958,1962 Winner, WC1962 Golden ball & Golden Boot, WC 1958/1962 All Star team

No slight our own Georgie but Mane was and will remain the best winger ever. :). Needs no introduction.

LW - Roberto Rivelino - Brazil (1970)
WC 1970 Winner, WC1970 All Star team

Part of possibly the best WC team of all time. Known for his trademark atomic free kicks but he could do the lot. Invented dribbles still used today and played both short and long range passing. For my money, the best left winner to have in this draft.
Maradona on Rivelino: "When I was a kid I used to watch Brazil play. I wasn’t bothered about what Pele was doing, though. I used to watch out for Rivelino, on the other side of the pitch. He was everything I wanted to be as a player. His dribbling was flawless, his passes perfect and his shots unstoppable."


CM: Carlos Caetano Bledorn Verri / Dunga (1994) - Brazil
WC1994 Winner, WC1994 All-Star team


Captain of Brazil when they lifted the 1994 trophy. One part of the best holding midfield pair the WC has ever seen. On his WC form he is was a complete midfielder, a fact outlined by his average of 95 passes per match. He would not only stop the opposition play but kick start the attack for his own team. Inspirational leader to boot.

CM: Mauro Silva (1994) - Brazil
WC1994 Winner


The other half of midfield partnership. Playing the role of destroyer in the midfield, stopping any opposition attack. Did not get the same plaudits as Dunga but as important to the team as him.
Stats of both Dunga and Silva from 94-




RB: Hans-Hubert Berti Vogts (1974) - Germany
WC1974 Winner, WC1974 and WC1978 All-star team


The man who marked Cryuff out of the world cup final. A one club man, he won 5 Bundeligas with Borussia Mönchengladbach. With Germany played 3 world cups from 70 to 78, playing all the matches. Rock solid at the back and nicknamed 'Der Terrier' simply because he would contest every single ball out there. Need to man mark anyone in a football match, no problem.

LB: Ruud Krol (1974) - Holland
WC1974/78 Runner's up, WC1974 and WC1978 All Star team


One of the best defenders to never win the World Cup, Krol played to a high level as both a left back (1974) and sweeper (1978), being selected in the Team of the Tournament on both occasions. Known to bring the ball out of defence to create opportunities for teammates (2 assists in 1978), Krol was one of the most gifted defenders of his era and an intelligent captain.

LCB - Daniel Passarella - Argentina (1978)
WC1978 Winner, WC1978 All Star team

"The great Captain". Possibly the best south american central defender ever. Between him and Figueroa. Definitely the best goal scoring defender. 22 goals in 70 matches for Argentina, staggering 140+ goals in his club career. The perfect defender - libero who can play the ball, good in the air to head it out and can join in the attack to score goals.
Maradona on Passarella: "He’s the best defender I’ve ever seen, and the best header of a ball too – in attack as well as defence."

RCB - Karlheinz Förster - Germany (1982)
WC1982 & WC1986 Runner's up

Rates as one of the best man marker ever. Important player for both German National team and Stuttgart during 80's. Was part of German team that reached two consecutive finals, tragically missing out on the WC win in 1990. Absolute rock to have in the team, great foil for Passarella. Can be used to man-mark anyone out of the game. Known for man-marking likes of Hugo Sanchez, Platini and Ceulemans in WC matches.


GK: Gianlugi Buffon (2006) - Italy
WC2006 Winner, WC2006 All-Star team, 2nd in Ballon'dor 2006


What can you say? Simple possess no weaknesses. Great shot stopper, excellent organizer from the back. Only conceded 2 goals in 2006, none from open play. One was that penalty by Zidane, other an own goal from a free kick. Winner of countless awards in Serie A and lynchpin of the Juve team for past 10 years or so.

Substitutes-

- Kurt Hamrin (1958) - Sweden
5 matches, 4 goals, 1 assist (1958) ,WC1958 Runner's up, WC58 All star team

"In Italy he was known as Uccellino, little bird, because he was so fast and so light when he played that he seemed to fly over the grass." Scored 190 goals from wing in Serie A. Can dribble the ball past many a player on right towards the goal.
Found a great interview with him here - http://theinsideleft.com/kurt-hamrin/


- Leonel Sanchez (1962) - Chile
6 matches, 4 goals, 2 assists (1962), WC1962 3rd place, WC62 Joint top scorer, All-Star team & Bronze Ball

Staggering 361 goals in 400 odd appearances for his club. 23 goals for Chile in 81 matches. Holds the record for most matches played for Chile. Joint golden boot winner in 62 WC and was mostly acknowledged as their best player in the tournament when they finished third. A fact outlined by the fact he was named the third best player in tournament after Garrincha and Masopust.

- Alberto Tarantini (1978) - Argentina
WC1978 Winner, WC1978 All-Star team

Seen as a defender with immense physical abilities and good technique, Tarantini was the starting left-back in the 1978 Argentina side that won the World Cup. Tarantini was a very quick fullback who's defensive abilities were never called into question as he also played as a central defender. Tarantini capped off a very strong 1978 World Cup with a fine headed goal against Perú and was also included in the 1978 World Cup All-Star Team for his great performances.

- Oscar Ruggeri (1986) - Argentina
WC1986 Winner

A world-class defender in his prime, Ruggeri earned the nickname "El Cabezón" (big head) because of his aerial dominance as a central defender. He was the leader of the 1986 Argentina defence that had the best defensive record in the World Cup, and he earned his reputation as an elite defender not just for club but for country as well. A good passer, Ruggeri provides another solid option at the back as he has a near-perfect match in terms of playing style with his partner, Krol.


- Ricardo "El Divino" Zamora (1934) - Spain
WC1934 Best Keeper, All Star team
 

crappycraperson

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Even if you have Maldini as best left back of all time, to say his job is relatively simple, it being to mark Garrincha..... mmmmm

Infact given that Rivaldo will be almost always playing through a central area, you would have needed your left back to provide width which he most definitely won't be able to do now.
 

Moby

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Even if you have Maldini as best left back of all time, to say his job is relatively simple, it being to mark Garrincha..... mmmmm

Infact given that Rivaldo will be almost always playing through a central area, you would have needed your left back to provide width which he most definitely won't be able to do now.
When I said it is simple, I meant he is very clear with what his job is.
 

crappycraperson

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I will wait for either of Pol or Aldo to be online later before posting more on his tactics.

A small word- there is simply no width in his team. Boniek is the only one who can effectively go wide but that's it. The so called movement he talks about won't be an issue for Passarella, Krol, Forster and Vogt given it would mostly be confined to the same area. Some one like Vogts is effectively free to haunt Rivaldo or Maradona since Maldini would not be coming forward.
 

Moby

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I will wait for either of Pol or Aldo to be online later before posting more on his tactics.

A small word- there is simply no width in his team. Boniek is the only one who can effectively go wide but that's it. The so called movement he talks about won't be an issue for Passarella, Krol, Forster and Vogt given it would mostly be confined to the same area. Some one like Vogts is effectively free to haunt Rivaldo or Maradona since Maldini would not be coming forward.
Go on, man. I'll be replying till he's not online, that's what he told me to do. Once he is here he will reply. Up to you if you wanna wait for him.
 

crappycraperson

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Ok then my thoughts on your tactics-

-Consequence of having no width on left side
- Rivaldo is not going to help out Maldini against Mane. So either one of your CMs or Moore will have to help him out. This would create more space for Fontaine and Kopa to play with.
- Maldini being pinned back means there is no attacking threat what so ever on the left wing. Rivaldo is not the type to attack from a wide position. If someone like Brietner is going to bomb forward on the left to stretch the play, it will play into the hands of Kopa again.
- Vogts would effectively be free for most of the game to double up on Maldini with Garrincha. Other times he can happily track either Rivaldo or Maradona.

- Brietner and Zito on Kopa
-
Both of them would hardly be marking Kopa. Fontaine is good enough to keep the attention of both your CBs. Letting your full backs alone against Mane and Rivelino will be suicide. Both the CMs would at times will have to help out against the wingers and over lapping full backs.
- This is the stark difference between both sides. I have the players in my team to stretch the play to create even more space in the middle. Dunga-Silva in my team would not be needed to help out against Boniek and Rivaldo.

- It's all on Maradona
-
It is one thing to build your team around Diego but here if he has an off day or is successfully taken out of the game by my players, I don't think his front three would work as intended. In contrast even if someone like Mane is neutralized I still have Kopa to create chances. If someone like Kopa is neutralized, Dunga can still supply the balls to either of Rivelino or Garrincha.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Looking at both teams for about 15 mins now and can't make a decision either way.

Thought Kopa would be a shade less effective without the excellent Piantoni partnering him in the middle, but then with Silva/Dunga partnership, C&P's defence looks impeccable, even with Maradona/Eusebio on the attack. But with Rivaldo/Boniek supporting them, it is a question of time when they will score.

I think Pol shades this match, but will wait a while before voting!
 

crappycraperson

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Looking at both teams for about 15 mins now and can't make a decision either way.

Thought Kopa would be a shade less effective without the excellent Piantoni partnering him in the middle, but then with Silva/Dunga partnership, C&P's defence looks impeccable, even with Maradona/Eusebio on the attack. But with Rivaldo/Boniek supporting them, it is a question of time when they will score.

I think Pol shades this match, but will wait a while before voting!
Are Rivaldo/Boniek a better supporting pair than Garrincha/Rivelino?

Garrincha/Rivelino are a perfect wing pair. Garrincha will play as a proper winger, stay our wide while Rivelino can play from both left and center.

I also have the better keeper and better defense.
 

crappycraperson

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This is how Vogts can help out against Rivaldo- he did a similar job on Cryuff in 74. In this scenario Maradona has no one free he can play in between the tightly marked area of Dunga-Silva



In case Rivaldo is being picked up by Forster, Vogts can close out even further space against Maradona. When he either passes the ball back/sideways or dribble past three players. Not just any three players though.

 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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I think you are underestimating Eusebio. Even with Stiles man-marking him, he still managed to score a goal. So Vogts support becomes crucial, and as mentioned in your strategy, I don't think Passarella can go on attacking runs without a disastrous counter.

Tactics seems to lead to a stalemate. I think it will be down to individual brilliance to carry the match for either team.
 

Annahnomoss

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Fontaine-Kopa: The Top Scorer of the 1958 World Cup and the Best Player of the 1958 World Cup together.
Best player of the '58 World Cup according to who? This is very deceitful even if I don't think it is on purpose.

Golden ball of '58 was awarded to Didi.
Silver ball to Pele
Bronze ball to Fontaine(Not Kopa which you imply)

Will read all the tactics, then give an input.
 

crappycraperson

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Best player of the '58 World Cup according to who? This is very deceitful even if I don't think it is on purpose.

Golden ball of '58 was awarded to Didi.
Silver ball to Pele
Bronze ball to Fontaine(Not Kopa which you imply)

Will read all the tactics, then give an input.
To be fair, he did win the Ballon'dor that year and I am sure WC peformances should have played its part. Pippa wrote this and I think it was in the context of his ballon'dor win. But I take you point, I will ask Aldo to edit it when he is back.

And while I myself give weight-age to Golden ball and all star inclusions, I don't think they are always entirely correct.
 

Annahnomoss

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To be fair, he did win the Ballon'dor that year and I am sure WC peformances should have played its part. But I take you point, I will ask Aldo to edit it when he is back
Indeed. Just write he was the best European player in '58.(as only they were allowed to participate for the Ballon D'Or for a long time. Which is why Pele/Didi/Maradona hasn't won it.)
 

antohan

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This is the second game Pol faces Garrincha and deploys Boniek on the left, leading to the rival manager claiming his right back can do a job against Maradona. Again, I'll say Boniek can work both flanks as required to avoid such an arrangement being permanent or at all dependable (not that I think it's needed, which it was in the previous game).

That said, I like crappy's defensive solidity, and I'm not entirely sold on Maradona and Eusebio together as a great fit, Maradona would be best served having at least one "referencia de área" ("man in the box to act as reference", sounds like target man but it ain't the same really).

I can see both sides dealing with the #10 effectively, and that reverts to the wingmen, where crappy trumps Pol with the out and out winger and the "second/plan B #10" (Rivelino>Rivaldo IMO on that count).

The only thing holding me back right now is Breitner. In a game that looks like a classy stalemate, he could really make a Roy of the Rovers impact that neither Dunga or Silva will make. No minor issue that.

I'd also argue Pol is far more dangerous and direct on the break. If he scored first I could easily see him wrapping up the game through that route.
 

Annahnomoss

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Not sure at all on how to vote yet. But here are a few pointers:

-Rivelino will not provide almost any width, he is more like a 2nd central playmaker than a left winger of any sort.
-This means either Krol needs to push up to provide width or Garrincha/Kopa/Fontaine/Rivelino are going to be squeezed in to control as the Cohen will just play very very narrow almost inside the box instead.

I am not sure yet whether Krol pushing up would benefit Pol or Crappy. I do know that Garrincha/Kopa/Fontaine would have a much harder time. I am not sure if Rivelino being centrally as well will make up for the loss of width or risk on the counter behind Krol.

Maradona and Eusebio won't be a perfect fit considering Eusebio is a lot more direct and may lessen Maradonas influence. Still, on the counter that may be a plus side, probably is.

I am still leaning towards Crappy so far but I won't vote until the tactics and especially the above has been discussed more.
 
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antohan

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Not sure at all on how to vote yet. But here are a few pointers:

-Rivelino will not provide any width, he is more like a 2nd central playmaker than a left winger of any sort.
-This means either Krol needs to push up to provide width or Garrincha/Kopa/Fontaine/Rivelino are going to be squeezed in to control as the Cohen will just play very very narrow almost inside the box instead.

I am not sure yet whether Krol pushing up would benefit Pol or Crappy. I do know that Garrincha/Kopa/Fontaine would have a much harder time. I am not sure if Rivelino being centrally as well will make up for the loss of width or risk on the counter behind Krol.

Maradona and Eusebio won't be a perfect fit considering Eusebio is a lot more direct and may lessen Maradonas influence. Still, on the counter that may be a plus side, probably is.

I am still leaning towards Crappy so far but I won't vote until the tactics and especially the above has been discussed more.
My take is Krol providing width is a necessity and Passarella will cover for him very well. I can't see Passarella venturing forward at all except for free kicks/corners. I don't think he needs Passarella to do any libero shit as he needs to be advancing down that left flank, not centrally. It is a tactical mistake IMO, even if Krol can cover effectively, he is simply unshackling the wrong one out of the two.
 

Moby

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This is how Vogts can help out against Rivaldo- he did a similar job on Cryuff in 74. In this scenario Maradona has no one free he can play in between the tightly marked area of Dunga-Silva



In case Rivaldo is being picked up by Forster, Vogts can close out even further space against Maradona. When he either passes the ball back/sideways or dribble past three players. Not just any three players though.


The first pic is where you are trapped and the fluidity drags your players around. The problem is that it is making it look like that is the only area they can occupy, whereas all 4 are capable of virtually operating at any part of the final third which is why such close man marking will be devastating. In a scenario like that Rivaldo can also cross to the other side of the dragging Vogts with him, exposing the left side where Maradona makes a run.

Moreover, with that approach, you are allowing players like Maradona a lot of time on the ball and in his 86 form, he would usually make it count. Slightest of error, and it will be punished.

And a plain fact is that Santamaria and Moore are more capable of handling Fontaine than Passarella and Forster are to handle Eusebio with Rivaldo supporting him. Santamaria's man marking can take Fontaine out reducing the goal threat massively while on the other hand Maradona, Rivaldo and Eusebio all have massive goal threats in their respective peak World Cups.

The point being, the movement and goal threat and that too quality goal threat given the chaos Boniek will create will be more dangerous.
 

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@crappycraperson

If Zito / Brietner mark Kopa out, what other alternative threat creation paths do you have? Seems he is key to the whole shebang!

Garrincha and Rivellino dropping deeper would just take away your bite and dull Fontaine as he would lack the feed.
Yeah, while I'm no huge fan of that Maradona-Rivaldo-Eusebio combo, you can see if Maradona is marked out of the game Pol has other avenues, including Eusebio dropping deep to create his own chances, while Fontaine is more likely to get cut off at the source.
 

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The problem is that it is making it look like that is the only area they can occupy, whereas all 4 are capable of virtually operating at any part of the final third which is why such close man marking will be devastating.
I don't get the hard on for shirt-matching that takes place at times in these drafts (same as with the direct player to player comparisons which mean little).

The sort of player at this level is unlikely to be so one-dimensional that just matching a shirt to each will work. I have never seen a defence with each player having a man-marking detail, it's usually zonal with maybe the odd man (usually spare one) on a man-marking duty. If every defender were man-marking they would end up all over the shop, surely.
 

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This is the second game Pol faces Garrincha and deploys Boniek on the left, leading to the rival manager claiming his right back can do a job against Maradona. Again, I'll say Boniek can work both flanks as required to avoid such an arrangement being permanent or at all dependable (not that I think it's needed, which it was in the previous game).

That said, I like crappy's defensive solidity, and I'm not entirely sold on Maradona and Eusebio together as a great fit, Maradona would be best served having at least one "referencia de área" ("man in the box to act as reference", sounds like target man but it ain't the same really).

I can see both sides dealing with the #10 effectively, and that reverts to the wingmen, where crappy trumps Pol with the out and out winger and the "second/plan B #10" (Rivelino>Rivaldo IMO on that count).

The only thing holding me back right now is Breitner. In a game that looks like a classy stalemate, he could really make a Roy of the Rovers impact that neither Dunga or Silva will make. No minor issue that.

I'd also argue Pol is far more dangerous and direct on the break. If he scored first I could easily see him wrapping up the game through that route.
If Boniek attacks from the left then Krol will still be free and can play the role Vogts can play as a free man. Or he can tuck in while someone like Forster can track Maradona.

I am glad you brought Rivelino up, he is getting short changed here. Great player who can work up the wing or link up with Kopa in the middle if he is getting crowded out
 

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The player for player comparisons are the worst though. Means jack shit really considering the main importance is finding a team that works rather than the e
If Boniek attacks from the left then Krol will still be free and can play the role Vogts can play as a free man. Or he can tuck in while someone like Forster can track Maradona.

I am glad you brought Rivelino up, he is getting short changed here. Great player who can work up the wing or link up with Kopa in the middle if he is getting crowded out
Rivelino is a great player but he isn't a winger by any means at all. One of the most narrow wide men ever and that is not a stretch either.

I'd also rate Rivelino higher than Rivaldo, the issue is that Rivaldo is positioned more honestly than Rivelino who is equally wide as Garrincha in your formation!

It feels pointless to play him there and continue to state how he can provide wide - Rivelino is already great by himself and there's no need at all to sell him as winger. Especially when you have Krol as a LB or if you wanted to send up Passarella.
 

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Yeah, while I'm no huge fan of that Maradona-Rivaldo-Eusebio combo, you can see if Maradona is marked out of the game Pol has other avenues, including Eusebio dropping deep to create his own chances, while Fontaine is more likely to get cut off at the source.
@crappycraperson

If Zito / Brietner mark Kopa out, what other alternative threat creation paths do you have? Seems he is key to the whole shebang!

Garrincha and Rivellino dropping deeper would just take away your bite and dull Fontaine as he would lack the feed.
Not true.

First of all, Dunga is being made out to be a mug here. As pointed out he averaged 99 passes a match in 94 WC. He can supply the balls directly to Garrincha on the wing if Kopa is being marked out.

Garrincha would not be dropping deep but Rivelino can and would link up with the midfielders.

Then there is the fact there is someone like Krol here- someone who has part of total football. Passarella another player great at the ball from the back who can pick out players.

Fontaine has 3 players to make chances for him - Kopa, Rivelino and Mane. There is no way all 3 would be marked out of the game.
 

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The player for player comparisons are the worst though. Means jack shit really considering the main importance is finding a team that works rather than the e


Rivelino is a great player but he isn't a winger by any means at all. One of the most narrow wide men ever and that is not a stretch either.

I'd also rate Rivelino higher than Rivaldo, the issue is that Rivaldo is positioned more honestly than Rivelino who is equally wide as Garrincha in your formation!

It feels pointless to play him there and continue to state how he can provide wide - Rivelino is already great by himself and there's no need at all to sell him as winger. Especially when you have Krol as a LB or if you wanted to send up Passarella.
He is not the traditional winger but unlike Rivaldo, he can stretch the play by playing the balls from the left. Rivaldo will mostly be confined to central area while Rivelino will work from both left and center
 

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If Boniek attacks from the left then Krol will still be free and can play the role Vogts can play as a free man. Or he can tuck in while someone like Forster can track Maradona.
You can't have your fullbacks running back and forth to the centre subject to where Boniek is, he will out-run and out-stamina them and drive them completely crazy and you may end up with both hopelessly out of position. The secret in defending -football, rugby, or any team sport- is keeping a steady line, not offering obvious gaps and passing on the baton to others to avoid being dragged out of position regularly.

You already have two very good DMs "tracking Maradona", the only need for a defender to come to their support is if they are beaten and Maradona is on the loose and running at them. At that point one of Forster or Passarella would come forth to close him down and either of your fullbacks would tuck in to cover. That's the only sensible way I can see that defence operating TBH.
 

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I don't get the hard on for shirt-matching that takes place at times in these drafts (same as with the direct player to player comparisons which mean little).

The sort of player at this level is unlikely to be so one-dimensional that just matching a shirt to each will work. I have never seen a defence with each player having a man-marking detail, it's usually zonal with maybe the odd man (usually spare one) on a man-marking duty. If every defender were man-marking they would end up all over the shop, surely.
I have not man marked anyone. All 4 of my defenders are very versatile and have different feature to their game. Passarella would not be on Eusebio all the time, either of him or Forster can pick him up. Same with Rivaldo. If Vogts is free he may pick him up or go out to help against Maradona or pick up Boniek if he moves to right. Forster if free can track Rivaldo's run or see to Maradona if he is trying to dribble towards the goal. If Boniek moves away from left, Krol can tuck in to make it even tighter for someone like Eusebio.
 

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He is not the traditional winger but unlike Rivaldo, he can stretch the play by playing the balls from the left. Rivaldo will mostly be confined to central area while Rivelino will work from both left and center
That is what I am on about. This isn't true at all if anything Rivaldo is better at providing width than Rivelino. I spent a lot of time watching his games in the '70 WC about a week and a half ago and he almost never provides any sort of width.

He had around one cross per game, and that was often a poor one too. He wasn't very comfortable out wide because he was notoriously slow in his style. Centrally he was magnificent and he had a great ability to share the burden of playmaking which not many playmakers can do. They want the ball themselves or they play bad, which wasn't the case for Rivelino.

There is no need for you to sell Rivelino as a left winger, he was almost a carbon copy of Kagawa in his ability to provide width - it is non-existent until you add a wing-back. He would love playing Krol free behind the defense etc, but he'd not challenge a wing-back and beat him on the outside and whip in a cross.
 

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You can't have your fullbacks running back and forth to the centre subject to where Boniek is, he will out-run and out-stamina them and drive them completely crazy and you may end up with both hopelessly out of position. The secret in defending -football, rugby, or any team sport- is keeping a steady line, not offering obvious gaps and passing on the baton to others to avoid being dragged out of position regularly.

You already have two very good DMs "tracking Maradona", the only need for a defender to come to their support is if they are beaten and Maradona is on the loose and running at them. At that point one of Forster or Passarella would come forth to close him down and either of your fullbacks would tuck in to cover. That's the only sensible way I can see that defence operating TBH.
I take your point but no one is man marking Boniek. And my point regarding Vogts and Forster covering for Dunga-Silva was the same as you are making.
 

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I'd also rate Rivelino higher than Rivaldo, the issue is that Rivaldo is positioned more honestly than Rivelino who is equally wide as Garrincha in your formation!
I don't have an issue with the teamsheet positioning, I just see him as having an arrow pointing to the centre and a diagonal one, just not a vertical one, while Garrincha would mostly have a vertical and diagonal one.
 

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The first pic is where you are trapped and the fluidity drags your players around. The problem is that it is making it look like that is the only area they can occupy, whereas all 4 are capable of virtually operating at any part of the final third which is why such close man marking will be devastating. In a scenario like that Rivaldo can also cross to the other side of the dragging Vogts with him, exposing the left side where Maradona makes a run.

Moreover, with that approach, you are allowing players like Maradona a lot of time on the ball and in his 86 form, he would usually make it count. Slightest of error, and it will be punished.

And a plain fact is that Santamaria and Moore are more capable of handling Fontaine than Passarella and Forster are to handle Eusebio with Rivaldo supporting him. Santamaria's man marking can take Fontaine out reducing the goal threat massively while on the other hand Maradona, Rivaldo and Eusebio all have massive goal threats in their respective peak World Cups.

The point being, the movement and goal threat and that too quality goal threat given the chaos Boniek will create will be more dangerous.
Ok first of all here is question for others, I genuinely don't know so asking-

- On WC form who is better Forster or SantaMaria?

Then Fontaine and Eusebio. The latter may be the better player but Fontaine unquestionably showed superior WC form. He was perfect at what he was supposed to do. Talk about one defender marking him out of the game is non sense.

Then Fontaine is being made out as the only goal threat something far from true. Garrincha, Rivelino and Kopa can all score as well.
 

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I don't have an issue with the teamsheet positioning, I just see him as having an arrow pointing to the centre and a diagonal one, just not a vertical one, while Garrincha would mostly have a vertical and diagonal one.
If he had arrows I wouldn't have an issue either. The same if he just explained that Rivelino will play pretty much the same role as Rivaldo but is at a slightly higher quality.
 

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Not true.

First of all, Dunga is being made out to be a mug here. As pointed out he averaged 99 passes a match in 94 WC. He can supply the balls directly to Garrincha on the wing if Kopa is being marked out.

Garrincha would not be dropping deep but Rivelino can and would link up with the midfielders.

Then there is the fact there is someone like Krol here- someone who has part of total football. Passarella another player great at the ball from the back who can pick out players.

Fontaine has 3 players to make chances for him - Kopa, Rivelino and Mane. There is no way all 3 would be marked out of the game.
I agree Kopa being cut off doesn't shut you out. I mentioned as much earlier with Rivelino being a better "plan B #10" than Rivaldo.

All I was pointing out is one plus for Eusebio relative to Fontaine is he can drop deep and create his own chances. If I'm going to point out that I prefer Maradona having a "referencia de área" (someone more like Fontaine) it is only fair that I also point out that Eusebio not fitting that remit has a silver-lining.
 

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- On WC form who is better Forster or SantaMaria?

Both in and outside of WC it is Santamaria.

- Eusebio VS Fontaine?

Eusebio is by far the better player overall, he is a complete forward. He can drop deeper and collect balls and so on.

Fontaine however is a more clinical finisher in terms of a WC. One must assume if there is a free goal chance Fontaine would be most likely to score of all WC players. Fontaine is also a master of counter-attacks and direct attacks.

So it will come down to who has the style to fit them in? I think Crappy has the edge here.
 

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Also it seems to unfairly go a bit too much against Crappy right now because Pol isn't here. I think Cohen would have huge issues against Rivelino and Krol. How will Cohen shut down Rivelinos passing options to Krol as well as the shooting options/pass centrally.

My issues with his team has mainly been that he has oversold players who are already great - if I had to vote now I'd for for Crappy though.
 
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