Zidane Iqbal

Dante said:
If British Asians can start making their way into English football, that will be the true measure of success for the anti-racism programs currently in place.

For 7% of the population, their representation is pitiful. Hopefully Iqbal makes it and becomes the first of many.
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TBF, most of the British Asians are Indian and Pakistan origin, aren't they? How many good Indian and Pakistan footballers can you name ever coming from those countries, in comparison to the likes of Japan and South Korea?

If there's no good players from that part of Asia ever developing in their own nations, it's unfair to mostly blame racism for the lack of them over here - especially given the huge amount of black players there are in comparison to the UK population.
 
AltiUn said:
Think you're underselling his technique a bit there, he's very technically gifted.
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I mentioned his technique as being his main asset - what do you think of the negatives I mentioned? His slow tempo, lack of pace, limited attacking end product and defensive work?
 
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Bertie Wooster said:
TBF, most of the British Asians are Indian and Pakistan origin, aren't they? How many good Indian and Pakistan footballers can you name ever coming from those countries, in comparison to the likes of Japan and South Korea?

If there's no good players from that part of Asia ever developing in their own nations, it's unfair to mostly blame racism for the lack of them over here - especially given the huge amount of black players there are in comparison to the UK population.
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Black and white sports people are viewed differently from brown sports people.
 
Dante said:
Black and white sports people are viewed differently from brown sports people.
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And what about the point of no footballers ever coming out of India and Pakistan themselves? It's not as if there's clearly loads of talented Indian and Pakistan footballers about and it's obviously racism. Can you name any talented players that have been denied moves to top clubs because they 'don't trust brown players'? Even though they'll spend huge sums on black players, and Asian players from Japan and South Korea who aren't exactly white or black?

Nor does coming from India or Pakistan prevent England teams buying and trusting 'brown' sports people at Cricket.
 
Dante said:
Yep.
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Do you have any examples of academy players being unfairly treated? Or do you think the scouts are intentionally avoiding them?

I grew up in Blackburn which has a high % of British Asians compared to the country average. I played at grass roots level from U6 to U18 and I recall every british asian dominant team that featured in our league always finished bottom, despite the asian areas receiving more investment for things like 5g and outdoor football pitches. I recall 1 really good asian player in my age group, but I could name 50 white players at the same age that were better than him, and none of them made it pro either. It's almost impossible to make it pro, at the end of the day if you're good enough you'll get your chance no matter your skin colour.
 
Bertie Wooster said:
And what about the point of no footballers ever coming out of India and Pakistan themselves? It's not as if there's clearly loads of talented Indian and Pakistan footballers about and it's obviously racism. Can you name any talented players that have been denied moves to top clubs because they 'don't trust brown players'? Even though they'll spend huge sums on black players, and Asian players from Japan and South Korea who aren't exactly white or black?

Nor does coming from India or Pakistan prevent England teams buying and trusting 'brown' sports people at Cricket.
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They're different groups of people raised in different cultures thousands of miles apart.
 
luke511 said:
Do you have any examples of academy players being unfairly treated? Or do you think the scouts are intentionally avoiding them?

I grew up in Blackburn which has a high % of British Asians compared to the country average. I played at grass roots level from U6 to U18 and I recall every british asian dominant team that featured in our league always finished bottom, despite the asian areas receiving more investment for things like 5g and outdoor football pitches. I recall 1 really good asian player in my age group, but I could name 50 white players at the same age that were better than him, and none of them made it pro either. It's almost impossible to make it pro, at the end of the day if you're good enough you'll get your chance no matter your skin colour.
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British asians can make it if they look white (Michael Chopra), black (Hamza Choudhury) or have an Anglophone name (Neil Taylor). The talent and the enthusiasm is there.
 
Dante said:
They're different groups of people raised in different cultures thousands of miles apart.
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So that's 'no', you can't name any players. Thought not.
Well, can you name any British Asian players that 'should' have made it to the top but didn't because they weren't trusted due to racism?
If not, your opinion really isn't being backed up by any evidence, is it? In fact, your lack of evidence speaks very highly to the contrary.
 
Bertie Wooster said:
So that's 'no', you can't name any players. Thought not.
Well, can you name any British Asian players that should have made it to the top but didn't because they weren't trusted?
If not, your opinion really isn't being backed up by any evidence, is it? In fact, your lack of evidence speaks very highly to the contrary.
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Strawman.

It's impossible to name somebody who never had a chance to exist. Would you make the same argument about female opportunities in the boardroom?

The evidence is in the lack of representation. Are you claiming that institutional racism doesn't exist? Or that acceptance of one minority group automatically proves acceptance of all minority groups?
 
Well done people.

You’ve turned a young lad signing a contract in to a race discussion.

It’s pathetic and needs winding in
 
Dante said:
British asians can make it if they look white (Michael Chopra), black (Hamza Choudhury) or have an Anglophone name (Neil Taylor). The talent and the enthusiasm is there.
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Okay then, you think Hamza Choudhury made it pro because the scouts mistaken him as being black instead of Indian, despite having the last name Choudhury?
 
Going slightly off subject here but what happened to that flashy Dutch kid we signed a couple of seasons back ?
Is he still with us ?
 
FrankDrebin said:
Going slightly off subject here but what happened to that flashy Dutch kid we signed a couple of seasons back ?
Is he still with us ?
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Hoogewerf? Getting games in the U23s, he's looked a talent every time I've watched him. I think it might be his size that's slowed down his progression, he's tiny.
 
luke511 said:
Hoogewerf? Getting games in the U23s, looked a talent every time I've watched him. I think it might be his size that's slowed down his progression, he's tiny.
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Yeah, that's the one. Seemed ridiculously skilful.
 
Bravo well done to a technically gifted 17 year old, he has lots of potential.
Everyone discussing this young persons skin colour, positively or negatively needs to hang your head in shame. This is about a young persons career, he’s obviously very highly thought of to get his pro contract. Be constructive in criticism.
Give your heads a Wobble and move on! this is about talent and not a tan!
 
Loopy said:
Bravo well done to a technically gifted 17 year old, he has lots of potential.
Everyone discussing this young persons skin colour, positively or negatively needs to hang your head in shame. This is about a young persons career, he’s obviously very highly thought of to get his pro contract. Be constructive in criticism.
Give your heads a Wobble and move on! this is about talent and not a tan!
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Hold on!
Much of the 'making it about race / sex' when it comes to sports / entertainment is done by BAME / women bringing up the issue so frequently. And much of the reporting / reaction to this news is about Iqbal being British Asian, and that being good news as they are under represented due to racism, etc. Are you saying that those people should focus solely on the sport / entertainment factor and give their heads a wobble and hang their heads in shame for making it about racism / sexism so often?

Considering our recent last five announcements of new deals have been for Shoretire, Mengi, Elanga, Mejbri and now Iqbal, it certainly seems a bit much for anyone to make any racism issues / accusations about our academy production. The BAME are very well represented by us.

For what it's worth, I think the discussion should be about Iqbal's strengths and weaknesses as a player. My initial post focused on that - that his strength is technical ability, and weaknesses are playing at a slow tempo, lacking pace, and not really offering enough attacking end product or defensive work in midfield. But no one has responded to those perceived weaknesses I mentioned, and the discussion has been switched to the 'British Asian' debate - which I also joined in with.

But what do people actually think of Iqbal as a player? In particular those weaknesses I mentioned, as I doubt many will disagree that he possesses good technical ability to some degree.
 
KiD MoYeS said:
He has the coolest name in football and so should make it on that basis.
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It's a no brainer really.
1- Put Zidane on the back of his shirt.
2- Play him for a few pre-season friendlies
3...
4- Profit
 
Dante said:
Strawman.

It's impossible to name somebody who never had a chance to exist. Would you make the same argument about female opportunities in the boardroom?

The evidence is in the lack of representation. Are you claiming that institutional racism doesn't exist? Or that acceptance of one minority group automatically proves acceptance of all minority groups?
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I am not saying you are wrong but I do find it hard to believe that asians should be treated much worse than any other minorities just when it comes to football. And even if it's correct that there are a lot of coaches out there who wont give asians a chance, there must be at least as many who are not. I think I read somewhere that 25% of all professional footballers are black, but less than 0,5% were british asian (which amounts to 10-15 players ?) I just can't believe that practically every british-asian footballer is denied a chance to play at the highest level because of racist coaches who refuse to give them a chance. Even if half the coaches were racist - there should still be a lot of British-asian footballers who make it to the top - but there aren't.

So there must be other - very significant explanations why there are so few, rather than just racism.
 
Dante said:
British asians can make it if they look white (Michael Chopra), black (Hamza Choudhury) or have an Anglophone name (Neil Taylor). The talent and the enthusiasm is there.
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Michael Chopra didn’t really hack in in the Indian league. He was ok but never ever top class.

As for the rest of your post are you suggesting that every club academy coach or director has a stereotypical notion of Asian players and that as long as they appear white European or black African they’ll give them a chance?

Back in the 80s and 90s I’d agree but it’s very depressing if that exists among modern day coaches. Especially if there’s so much money at stake in players as commodities, that you’re risking losing a big amount with that attitude
 
luke511 said:
Do you have any examples of academy players being unfairly treated? Or do you think the scouts are intentionally avoiding them?

I grew up in Blackburn which has a high % of British Asians compared to the country average. I played at grass roots level from U6 to U18 and I recall every british asian dominant team that featured in our league always finished bottom, despite the asian areas receiving more investment for things like 5g and outdoor football pitches. I recall 1 really good asian player in my age group, but I could name 50 white players at the same age that were better than him, and none of them made it pro either. It's almost impossible to make it pro, at the end of the day if you're good enough you'll get your chance no matter your skin colour.
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I grew up in blackburn too, and played at school with several players who became professionals / played non league, and many others who made it as far as pro club youth teams. I could name at least 5 players who i played with out of school who were a higher level than the ones who made it pro from my school, but these lads were never invited for trials and played most of the time in large scale public kickabouts with friends. Local club teams were not interested and the only asians at ewood park were some of the volunteer stewards. I should add for context, im 'asian' i grew up in an asian area (with no sports facilities, but it was the 80s) and my school was predominately white.
 
Loopy said:
Bravo well done to a technically gifted 17 year old, he has lots of potential.
Everyone discussing this young persons skin colour, positively or negatively needs to hang your head in shame. This is about a young persons career, he’s obviously very highly thought of to get his pro contract. Be constructive in criticism.
Give your heads a Wobble and move on! this is about talent and not a tan!
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A tan? rule brittania!
 
Superden said:
I grew up in blackburn too, and played at school with several players who became professionals / played non league, and many others who made it as far as pro club youth teams. I could name at least 5 players who i played with out of school who were a higher level than the ones who made it pro from my school, but these lads were never invited for trials and played most of the time in large scale public kickabouts with friends. Local club teams were not interested and the only asians at ewood park were some of the volunteer stewards. I should add for context, im 'asian' i grew up in an asian area (with no sports facilities, but it was the 80s) and my school was predominately white.
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It's a mighty shame they weren't given an opportunity to play in the grass roots teams. I never knew or heard of anything like that when I was playing for/against local teams, but this was 1998-2010 and not the 80s.
 
The British Sociological Association's annual conference in Newcastle heard today that scouts thought Asian players were only interested in non-contact sports such as cricket, or were physically weaker.

Dr. Dan Kilvington, of Leeds Beckett University, told the conference that only 12 out of over 3,700 professional players in England and Wales are of Asian ethnicity, even though British Asians form 5 percent of the general population.

One white scout from a professional club told him: "They [Asians] don't like physical contact, I think that's their problem. Why are they good at cricket? Why are they absolutely exceptional at squash? Why do they not participate in any other sports where there is physical contact?"

A white coach at a professional club told him the reason there were almost no British Asian soccer players was because "their traditional game is cricket".

Dr. Kilvington said that, in fact, Asian men and boys had higher rates of participation in amateur football than their white counterparts, according to survey data.

He interviewed 75 Asian men who played amateur soccer, who said there was little interest from professional clubs. One told him that though he had played for Asian teams with talented players that had done well in amateur leagues, "but I've never seen a scout watch a match in 18 years."

A British Asian club co-ordinator told him: "We never, ever, get any scouts down to watch us."

Dr. Kilvington told the conference: "If football is played by thousands of British-Asians across the country, why are there only 12 playing professionally?

https://phys.org/news/2018-04-british-asian-footballers-scouts-professional.html

The issue seems to be that Asian players are racially and culturally stereotyped if the above research is anything to by. And if you compare us to France and Germany, who have scouted and successfully integrated the Turkish, Algerian, Tunisian players into their ranks at every level with huge success. We have failed to do the same IMO. And if you refuse to scout the players due their back ground and perceived 'lack of physicality', then the result is what we're seeing right now, with a under representation of Asian players.
 
Fantastic development. Lets hope he keeps his head and stays grounded. This is one of the most important periods in a footballers career and he seems to have sensible friends and family around him. A very exciting prospect.
 
Adnan said:
The issue seems to be that Asian players are racially and culturally stereotyped if the above research is anything to by. And if you compare us to France and Germany, who have scouted and successfully integrated the Turkish, Algerian, Tunisian players into their ranks at every level with huge success. We have failed to do the same IMO. And if you refuse to scout the players due their back ground and perceived 'lack of physicality', then the result is what we're seeing right now, with a under representation of Asian players.
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This is true but there is more to it. I have a couple of friends that both got the offer to try out at big clubs like Aston Villa, Middleborough and smaller clubs like Spurs. None of these mates attended the trials.

One didn't go because he said "nah man, how many Asians make it in football?"

The other, his parents refused to sign the papers due to the same reason as the guy above.

The third didn't go because the coach became his agent and started demanding daft things like a private plane :lol:
 
Dante said:
British asians can make it if they look white (Michael Chopra), black (Hamza Choudhury) or have an Anglophone name (Neil Taylor). The talent and the enthusiasm is there.
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Think Neil Taylor's dad is half black.


Edit: Nope, scratch that. Was thinking about Mcneil. My bad.
 
He's a very good player that does look technically very good. His touch and technique is absolutely on point. And regarding his lack of physicality, that will improve as he develops further. So his pace will improve as he gets stronger which will result in him being more explosive over the first few steps, which is the most important thing for a player in the role Zidane Iqbal will likely occupy. You don't need to be fast in his role.

I've even read comments where people have stated that Hannibal Mejbri isn't the quickest as a way to point out his weaknesses. He doesn't need to be quick because he's a central attacking player. But for a central attacking player, he's very quick. And his pace for a player in his role is above average.
 
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Dirty Schwein said:
This is true but there is more to it. I have a couple of friends that both got the offer to try out at big clubs like Aston Villa, Middleborough and smaller clubs like Spurs. None of these mates attended the trials.

One didn't go because he said "nah man, how many Asians make it in football?"

The other, his parents refused to sign the papers due to the same reason as the guy above.

The third didn't go because the coach became his agent and started demanding daft things like a private plane :lol:
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I agree.

Paranoia also comes into it and kids/parents do become disillusioned regarding the long term prospects due to past experiences. But what they need is someone to break through and establish themselves at Premier League level, which would then break barriers and pave the way for other young hopefuls to do the same.
 
Bertie Wooster said:
From what I've seen of him he has decent technique and footwork on the ball, but he plays at a slow tempo, lacks pace, and doesn't offer a great deal of either attacking end product or defensive work.

Given what he lacks, I doubt he'll make it at United or the top level. I wasn't sure he'd get a professional deal, but I think the extra focus on him being a rare British Asian player in the academy may have tipped the balance there?
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Why would Man Utd decide to give him a contract based on his race? Could you expand upon your reasoning?
 
Adnan said:
... Dr Dan Kilvington, of Leeds Beckett University, told the conference that only 12 out of over 3,700 professional players in England and Wales are of Asian ethnicity, even though British Asians form 5 percent of the general population.
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The trouble with quoting population statistics in terms of demanding an appropriate representation is that isn't there about 3% black population in England and Wales and 86% white?

If you're going to suggest going off population percentage when it suits the argument, and not the ability of individuals, then there'd be a lot less BAME players being selected than there are presently, not more.

I find it incredibly hard to believe that no teams, all the way down the pyramid, would give trials to the Asian players who, if they're as good as some claim, would then impress and work their way up the leagues as many players do. Or at least make waves at those levels for people to have heard of them and cite them as talented examples.

The idea that there's plenty of talented British Asians not even being given trials at any level, not just the top level, seems highly doubtful. If there's very talented players out there, looking for clubs, then some clubs at some level of the pyramid would give them a trial at some point. Or some would get trials in Scotland, Wales, Ireland, or other countries, and prove the English scouts wrong. The fact that just happening at all really does suggest there's a lot more to the lack of Asian players with Indian / Pakistan heritage than just these 'talented players denied by racism' claims.
 
Bertie Wooster said:
TBF, most of the British Asians are Indian and Pakistan origin, aren't they? How many good Indian and Pakistan footballers can you name ever coming from those countries, in comparison to the likes of Japan and South Korea?

If there's no good players from that part of Asia ever developing in their own nations, it's unfair to mostly blame racism for the lack of them over here - especially given the huge amount of black players there are in comparison to the UK population.
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good point. its a bit silly.
 
Bertie Wooster said:
From what I've seen of him he has decent technique and footwork on the ball, but he plays at a slow tempo, lacks pace, and doesn't offer a great deal of either attacking end product or defensive work.

Given what he lacks, I doubt he'll make it at United or the top level. I wasn't sure he'd get a professional deal, but I think the extra focus on him being a rare British Asian player in the academy may have tipped the balance there?
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Bertie Wooster said:
Hold on!
Much of the 'making it about race / sex' when it comes to sports / entertainment is done by BAME / women bringing up the issue so frequently. And much of the reporting / reaction to this news is about Iqbal being British Asian, and that being good news as they are under represented due to racism, etc. Are you saying that those people should focus solely on the sport / entertainment factor and give their heads a wobble and hang their heads in shame for making it about racism / sexism so often?

Considering our recent last five announcements of new deals have been for Shoretire, Mengi, Elanga, Mejbri and now Iqbal, it certainly seems a bit much for anyone to make any racism issues / accusations about our academy production. The BAME are very well represented by us.

For what it's worth, I think the discussion should be about Iqbal's strengths and weaknesses as a player. My initial post focused on that - that his strength is technical ability, and weaknesses are playing at a slow tempo, lacking pace, and not really offering enough attacking end product or defensive work in midfield. But no one has responded to those perceived weaknesses I mentioned, and the discussion has been switched to the 'British Asian' debate - which I also joined in with.

But what do people actually think of Iqbal as a player? In particular those weaknesses I mentioned, as I doubt many will disagree that he possesses good technical ability to some degree.
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I think it's you that turned this into a race debate. I've highlighted your quote.
 
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